Here is my commentary/review of the Talisman Dungeon expansion for Revised 4th Edition of the game. Some of the points have been raised by other players but are included here for completeness (eg issues regarding production, storage of components). I have broken the review into sections, though obviously there is a lot of overlap between the individual topics. Also, I am not going into the details of gameplay. And yes, there will be digressions...

Flavour

Efforts have clearly been made to give the Dungeon its own feel, distinct from both the main Talisman board and Adventure deck, but also from earlier editions and other dungeon-bashing games. The distinctive flavour is largely the sum of the separate parts (artwork, new cards, the board etc). With so many cards and other features it is difficult to have both focus and variety and I think the designers have tried hard to find the right balance. So, on the one hand, elements such as the Cultist and Construct cards and the Lord of Darkness theme have been added for flavour. However there is perhaps some lack of variety in the Enemies as a whole (being largely humanoids of various kinds) - more on this point later. The new Strangers and Followers also contribute to the overall theme of the Dungeon being largely inhabited by humanoid servants of the Lord, with the occasional wild-eyed dwarf - Lone Dwarf (now an event), Miner, Tunnel Fighter, Weaponsmith and Armoursmith). Artwork is generally dark, both literally and metaphorically, as might be expected.

Production

Much has been said by other commentators about this already. The main things I note are the inordinately large box, and the high quality artwork on cards and board. The artwork on some cards is highly detailed but the images are small and some impact is lost. It remains to be seen what storage issues will arise once further expansions arise - the main game box can carry everything to date but little else. The rule book seems clear enough and comprehensive. However, some guidance on the Reaper would have been welcome and also an explicit statement of the use of Horses, Flying Carpets and the like (for the sake of 2nd edition fans used to having to dump all forms of transport at the entrance. Side note - transport is now permitted in the Dungeon as it is now considered a huge realm not the pokey tunnel of 2nd edition; though how a Horse and Cart are supposed to negotiate those narrow staircases...).

Integration with Main Game

The new board fits well both physically and in play terms with the main board. The issue of limited table space has been discussed by many fans already and with three more such add-on boards expected at least, many of us will be playing on the floor! The key method of integration is the 10 new Adventure cards, which allow access through various portals to the dungeon. Rune Gates (including the Dungeon deck one) bring more relevance to the Rune spaces on the main board. My particular favourite though is the new event, Dark Denizens, a lovely way to bring the Dungeon into the Outer and Middle Regions (not sure how this works with a couple of cards eg Hunchback...). There are a few repeat cards from the main Adventure deck, which seem apt in flavour terms - eg Miser Dragon, Gargoyle, Cave Troll, Shadow, Lesser Demon, Crypt Keeper and Hobgoblin (the latter for Goblin King's sake). A surprise appearance for 2nd edition Porter (now renamed Miner), ticks off another old card from the reprint waiting list; Porter appeared in Talisman the Adventure not 2nd edition Dungeon. Fate (introduced by FantasyFlight in the revised 4th edition) gets some further mentions in this set (eg Twist of Fate spell, Cloak of Feathers, Rune Dancer, Sister of Fate).

Player Interaction

Others have raised the question of the extent to which expansions draw attention away from the main board and in particular reduce player-on-player encounters. Potentially in a game with six players, everyone could be in a different region, once the remaining add-on boards are released. I am confident the designers will make efforts to add in new mechanics, modifications and additional encounter cards and spells which encourage player interaction - a major factor in maintaining Talisman's fun and competitiveness. Another suggestion others have made would be the development of the quest mechanic beyond the Warlock's quests; perhaps even including co-operative elements.

Sources

To the delight of many old fans (I guess) this edition draws heavily on the original 2nd edition Dungeon. Most 2nd edition Dungeon cards are here, a few with modifications. Notable absences are Gong, Altar, Decree of Banishment (not the same as the new Scroll of Exile), and the two Giant Spiders (which had a special ability not yet seen in 4th edition Spiders). Although I am not very familiar with 3rd edition Dungeon of Doom, it's good to see some of the new cards from that set eg Weighted Dice, Spell Ring, Sliding Walls. The Skaven and Rat Ogre enemies from 3rd edition are probably excluded for copyright and/or flavour reasons, being a particular invention of Games Workshop and the Warhammer setting. Some other random sources include "Clash of the Titans", inspiration according to the designer, for one of the new Treasure cards, Clockwork Owl. Black Elf has a strong D&D flavour (also found in 2nd edition originals such as Crawling Slime).

Dungeon Board

The new spaces (Monster Pit, Summoning Circle and beefed-up Treasure Chamber) are all welcome, while perhaps more significant are the Cavern and Vault spaces (now draw 2 and draw 3 instead of draw 1 and draw 2). In all, there are now 29 board spaces compared to 25 in 2nd edition and I think 16(?) in 3rd edition. Dungeon Entrance is also a draw space (wasn't in 2nd edition). Dungeon movement has changed, allowing both directions; good to see that the old rule (move only towards Treasure Chamber except when fleeing) is given as an option - I'm sure many 2nd edition fans will want to try that out. The order of the special spaces (eg Guard Room and Library) has changed compared to 2nd edition.

New Characters

Not much to say here. Four of the new characters are close revisions of 2nd edition cards. Philosopher is new, though I don't understand why the original 2nd edition Philosopher needed to be renamed Sage (Reaper expansion). All are playable; I'll leave the debate to the numerous threads on characters.

Treasure Cards

The idea of special treasures as quest items for specific Regions was realised in the 3rd edition expansions, but much expanded here. I strongly suspect something similar in future large expansions. It's a good addition to game flavour. They are a fairly interesting bunch and after much thought I've decided that having a choice of the treasures rather than random selection is preferable. They are more valuable if a player knows that they can target a particular item which will aid in some strategy (as far as that is possible in the chaotic world of Talisman). For some reason, Cloak of Feathers intrigues me - haven't seen it used yet but the ability to teleport in the Inner Region seems very handy... (On a related but digressing note, there seems to be a creep towards ways of getting to the Crown of Command without need of a Talisman, which seems contrary to the central theme of the game.) One wonders if some of the Treasure Cards will ever see play - favourites are bound to emerge in time and how often are players going to beat the Lord of Darkness? Perhaps a Spell or encounter card will appear which allows players to plunder Treasure Cards at random. Further idle speculation - do Treasure Cards need to be Magic Objects? Could they include mundane Objects or even Followers, Spells or Places? Perhaps the Treasure Cards for each expansion could form one deck for all Regions?

Spells

The new Spells are a good balance of reprints (sometimes revised) of cards from 2nd edition and new creations. Finger of Death is a fan favourite. The new Restoration spell is completely different to the 2nd edition spell of the same name. Magic Portal is curious - I would have preferred its possible destinations to include some of the less often visited spaces on the main board (eg Cursed Glade, Black Knight). A few more Spells which target other players would have been welcome.

Events, Strangers and Places

I have to confess to some disappointment with these cards. Sure, the ones included are great and are mostly from 2nd and 3rd editions. It's just that they are my favourite encounter types (especially those that stay around on the board) and I would have liked to see more. The relatively small number does help to make the Dungeon distinct from the main board. The Strangers get the biggest boost compared to 2nd edition. Dungeon Keeper (Stranger) is a revision of Slaver (Event), now allowing other players the chance to buy your stolen Followers (such noble morals the Talisman heroes have!). Armoursmith and Weaponsmith make the Purchase deck more relevant, while Oracle is an interesting twist on the prophecy mechanic. Places lose out most as neither Gong nor Altar made it from 2nd edition. Rune Gate I have already mentioned in the paragraph on Integration above.

Followers

Wise Man and Dog make a return, though Dog is now Faithful Hound and has different stats. Of the new cards Hunchback is my favourite for usefulness, flavour and humour. Presumably his name is Igor (possibly Quasimodo) and his real intention is to lead you straight into the clutches of the Vampire Prince... I love Followers so would have welcomed one or two more bizarre entities. (Another digression, I love the fact that in the new edition Minstrel can charm giant creepy crawlies as well as the usual furry critters - can't imagine being followed around by a giant worm helps him with the ladies - "Don't worry Princess, that drooling slime just means he likes you..."). Miner I've already mentioned above (reprint of Porter).

Objects (Magic and Mundane)

Much beefed up compared to previous editions. Even the reprinted Gauntlet of Might is stronger, while the stronger Crystal of Power replaces the 2nd edition Psychic Crystal (itself reprinted in the Reaper expansion). A balanced selection with enough new ideas. Overall, some worthwhile rewards for the challenges of the Dungeon. Good to see alignment get some more relevance.

Enemies

The most significant feature of the Dungeon expansion is that about 60% of the Dungeon cards are Enemies, compared to about 30% in the main Adventure deck (including Reaper expansion). This makes for a very challenging Region, which I'm sure most players will welcome, making victory at the Treasure Chamber (or even just getting there) all the sweeter. The proportion of enemies with high Craft or Strength (above 4) is greater than in the main Adventure deck. There are some great new additions and revisions (personal favourites are the deadlier Giant Beetle and the Vampire Prince - I've got a thing about Followers dying for their leader...). Goblin King is flavoursome (like the Magic the Gathering Goblin King in reverse). An interesting array of encounters with beneficial side effects (Tomb Warden, Rune Dancer, Gate Keeper, Bloodroot). Delightful innovations include Battle Hulk (yeah!), Gate Smasher (nod to Indiana Jones), Vassal of Darkness (expect variations on this in future), and the wonderfully annoying Tinker Imp. Nice to see the lowly goblins getting their revenge (Strength 9 Marauders anyone?) There are many more Spirits (a general change across all 4th Revised edition) - 2nd edition Dungeon had only two! Vampire Bats are quite different from 2nd edition (I prefer the latter version). Overall, I'm happy with the Enemies but would have liked some more bizarre and fantastical monsters (non-humanoid).

Some Minor Quibbles

Nightmare, while an exact reprint of the 2nd and 3rd edition card, is different to the Reaper expansion's Nightmare. One of them should have been renamed. Mimic is just a reprint of Doppelganger (promotional card with Reaper expansion). I don't mind functional reprints of enemies without special abilities (eg Ape=Lion=Bear), but it seems a shame not to keep a distinct identity for special creatures. Would have liked the Gnolls to be something other than a functionally identical Hobgoblin variant. Why is the Kobold Brute so big or is their usual small size just a D&D concept? Where is the Toad love? (Rumour has it that the next expansion will include a Toad theme - can we expect the Wand of Toadification or "Event - all players become Toads"?). Again, I suppose lack of Toadiness keeps the Dungeon distinct and heaven help a Random-ised Toad in the Dungeon...

Further Expansion of the Dungeon

I do hope that amongst all the other planned expansions, FantasyFlight will make further additions to the Dungeon. No doubt integrative cards such as Dungeon Doors and more Rune Gates will appear in other large expansions. Imaging Dark Denizens arriving in Talisman City! Likewise, perhaps the Dungeon deck will have new cards making connections to other expansions (would the City Watch dare hunt down and arrest one of our heroes in the underworld?). Perhaps there is room for player characters will special abilities linked to specific Regions - Dungeoneer anyone? As a Talisman fan since 1983, more cards for every deck are always welcome!

That concludes my commentary. Thanks for reading!

Great review on the expansion! My question to you is do you rate it as a must buy for the casual Talisman fan? I just purchased the game along with the Reaper expansion, but am hesitant about purchasing the large box expansions as I feel they will diluite PvP action. Got any advice for me? Stick with the small and hold on the large?

p.s. I have gotten all the Arkham expansions todate.

Thanks for response! Your choice is a tough one - I guess wait until you've played with the main game and Reaper for a while and see how you feel then. With only two or three players, the Dungeon can certainly put a lot of space between you all. However, most Talisman fans will probably head straight for the Dungeon together - it's about the thrill of exploring new territory at least as much as trying to win. In the games I've played we stroll around the Outer Region to build up some stats and then follow each other into the underdark. If Talisman is more about winning and less about the journey for you, then I wouldn't say Dungeon was essential.

Nice review

I like Dark Denizens too

It would be nice if you draw that card in the city haha The march of the goblins

I hope too, that each region contains treasure cards. I like that idea very much.

But i think that each region must have his own treasure cards instead of putting all the cards on one stack

Maybe that the altar and gong will return in another small expansion.

Our play group also really likes the treasure cards and the freedom to choose what to take when the Lord of Darkness is defeated. We also altered the talisman you can take as a treasure card ... this special talisman also adds +1 strength & +1 craft.

Guess what we don't like? The fact that those treasure cards won't see play very often.

We are trying to brainstorm ways to make these items more accessible but still difficult to obtain. We are leaning towards actually being able to purchase a random treasure card by being the first player to land on the castle with 7 gold. By spending 7 gold your recieve a random treasure card from the castle vault. Regardless of what treasure card you recieve, only one treasure card can be purchased per game in such a way. So if you get there first with the gold, you are the lucky one.

We have always felt that this game needed more things to spend gold on. We also feel that 7 gold is difficult enough that treasure cards still won't come into play often, but the cost is low enough that people would still work for it & maybe even attack players for gold more often.

Obviously you can still get treasure cards from the LoD as usual, but this is just another option to add flavor to the game.

Archdruid, you shouldn't take things personally (referring to the thread title), it's all fun and games .

Thanks for the comments guys. Malthule, I really like your suggestion for spending gold at the Castle - I'm all for reinvigorating the main board.

An additional comment I omitted from the section on Sources: The Cultists are inspired by Dragon Cultists of 2nd edition Dragons expansion. The Goblin Marauders concept of different Strength values is also based on the Dragon Cultists.

Archdruid said:

A very nice review of the Dungeon there. But I think the Gate Smasher is more likely to have been a homage to "The Cleaners" from Jim Henson's Labyrinth.

talismanisland said:

yeah,

I was already thinking about labyrinth when i saw that card

I love it

Well-spotted - I haven't seen Labyrinth in years so didn't note the similarity.

I just thought I would add this in case someone has been living in a cave and has never seen Clash of the Titans -

They do say that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

talismanisland said:

Wow

I have seen clash of the titans a long time ago, but i can't remember that clockwork owl.

I am happy that you show us these pictures Jon

Clask of the titans is a very good movie. The best movie i have seen with a medusa in it.

Does somebody knows more movies with those greek mythologie creatures in it.

I have also story teller with greek mythes, odyssey, jason and the argonauts,

Velhart said:

Velhart, you may be pleased to know that they are currently filming a re-make of Clash of the Titans due out next year.

Check out IMDB for details, cast looks good.

As for other greek mythology films, there is always Troy that concentrates on the heroes and is (very) loosely based on Homer's Iliad.

If I remember rightly there were not any creatures of note.

For a computer game, there was Age of Mythology for PC/Mac that covered Greek,Egyptian/Norse mythology and was essentially a skinned

version of Age of Empires. - I used to really like playing that. Mmm. Not played in a while...

Veered wildly off topic. Sorry.

BanthaFodder said:

Thanks for the information !

I am indeed very happy to hear that there is a remake coming next year !!

Velhart said:

"Die Katakomben" finally arrived at my door step!

Expect a couple of questions on Sunday (on Saturday will play games, hopefully also Talisman).

Velhart... do a search anywhere for film works of Ray Harryhausen, who did Clash of the Titans. I know he was involved with at least one other film ripping from Classical mythology - Jason and the Argonauts. (There may be others.) Keep in mind that he uses such mythologies generically. Aside from many greek myths varying widely even in their own time, Ray gets a lot of things wrong.

JCHendee said:

I saw some pictures a minute ago..

It looks very good

released date 1 april ?

Actually, Ray did the 80s version... don't know if he's involved in the new one.

Now that I have tested the dungeon, I must say I don't like the spells "Craft" and "Strength". Getting 1 craft/1 strength for just casting a spell is laaaaame.

4ER uses a lot small "freebies" along the way. Nothing drastic in any one change, but compared to previous versions they add and compound. At a guess, it is supposed to speed up the game... but my group really frowned at those spells as well. These freebie tactics were unnecessary, since the game has always had a rule for speed... simply reduce the trophy amount per token gained. And that approach still keeps everyone playing the adventure instead of just focused on the end game.

We've used the Dungeon four times now. Generally it is enjoyed, though after the 4th game it just seemed too much of a shortcut to the win. But like other components, it will continue to be a change of pace addition instead of a standard one. Here's hoping the Highlands has as much or more to offer as the Dungeon beyond a shortcut to the Crown.

We've pulled all of the spells for instant gains... which also makes the other spells slightly more accessible.

redsimon said:

I have no problem with it..

With all the expansions included, the spell deck is large..(90 spell cards already)

so.. drawing those strength and craft spells makes it more difficult with each new expansion added to the game.