You know, this is something I never understood, and it has been one of the biggest things for people to blow out of proportion. In Episode I, Watto never said anything about being immune to the Force. He said, and I quote:

"What? Do you think you are some sort of Jedi waving your hand around like that? I'm a Toydarian. Mind Tricks do not work on me - only money."

To me, that's akin to saying something like, "You can't lie to me. I'm Sicilian. I know how to lie better than anyone."

It's the same thing as saying, "You can't bull$hit a bull$hitter."

A Mind Trick only works on the weak minded. Basically Watto is suggesting that using a Mind Trick on a Toydarian is like trying to lie to a Sicilian. He's not saying he is the countermeasure to the Force and the Force doesn't work on him because of his species. Frankly, that entire line of thinking is just stupid. He's saying that his species' culture has provided him with a mind sense that is unusual to the rest of the galaxy - just like how Sicilians and how the old Italian mobs used to work where everyone was lying to one another and keeping secrets. That's where the stereotype comes from.

Mind Tricks not working on a species is a relatively common thing. but it has nothing to do with them being Force Immune or Resistant. Hutts are known to be the same way as a Toydarian. It's because they're always angling for the upper hand. They're constantly performing incredible acrobatics of logic and reasoning. This leads to someone who is not weak minded. Watto does the same thing in business. Just look at the totally convoluted bets he continued to make with Qui-Gon. All it means is Toydarians have a culture and temperment that makes them strong minded. I guarantee you that Qui-Gon could have Force Choked Watto's ass and it would have worked just fine.

That being said, I would say to ignore completely the entire notion that they are even Force Resistant, and I don't see any reason why they couldn't be fully trained Jedi with the Force as a very powerful ally.

Of course... that's just me.

That being said, I would say to ignore completely the entire notion that they are even Force Resistant, and I don't see any reason why they couldn't be fully trained Jedi with the Force as a very powerful ally.

I think "Toydarians are Force-resistant" and "Toydarians have a culture that makes them strong-minded" is a bit like "potayto, potata."

But to the point of them being a Jedi, I take the same stance as I do with a Wookiee Jedi: sure, it's rare; but so are Chiss in Imperial space, galaxy-traveling Drall, and Trandoshan mechanics. Your PCs are supposed to be special and rare; "average for a species" will only get you so far in character creation. What makes a PC stand out among his peers is what makes him worthy of being PC in the first place. So...yeah, Force-using Toydarian seems special enough to me!

Your PCs are supposed to be special and rare; "average for a species" will only get you so far in character creation. What makes a PC stand out among his peers is what makes him worthy of being PC in the first place. So...yeah, Force-using Toydarian seems special enough to me!

Just don't tell that to Han Solo or any of the rest of the Corellians that all seem to do their best to conform to the stereotype.

Well, with consistency in mind, he had to explain why the plot device he used once to make Alec Guiness even cooler can't be used again and again. So he needs to show its limitations, first in RotJ, then again in the Frampton Menace - the latter is important to establish that it's not because of Luke's flawed technique, even seasoned Jedi Masters have this ...reliability issue.

Basically it only works against stormtroopers on Tatooine... and only if the hand waved is Alec Guiness'.

Edit: Ah, forgot the death sticks scene.

Lucas does it all the time. I love the originals, but it's pretty clear he's just making stuff up as he goes along. In the first one, Luke & Leia are clearly intended to be the romantic leads. Then it was a hit, he got to make further movies, and realised his big-name actor didn't have much to do, so he hooks Han up with Leia. Luke has to be moved aside, so - yay! - suddenly they are brother and sister!

(Not that it's important in this discussion, but actually Harrison Ford wasn't a big-name actor then.)

That being said, I would say to ignore completely the entire notion that they are even Force Resistant, and I don't see any reason why they couldn't be fully trained Jedi with the Force as a very powerful ally.

I think "Toydarians are Force-resistant" and "Toydarians have a culture that makes them strong-minded" is a bit like "potayto, potata."

Okay, well let's look at this differently.

Is saying - "Sicilians are great liars."

The same as saying - "Sicilians are resistant to mind control."?

These sound like 2 completely different things to me.

I mean, Toydarians already have a boosted Willpower and Presence, and they have a respectable Intellect. These bonuses showcase the hallmark of their species and culture, already.

Okay, well let's look at this differently.

Is saying - "Sicilians are great liars."

The same as saying - "Sicilians are resistant to mind control."?

No, that's not really the same thing, but we don't know anything about how the Force interacts with great liars. We do know that the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded; and if this is true, then it is a logical assumption that the reason mind trick didn't work on Watto and Jabba was that they are both strong-minded. Or strong-willed, or however you might like to say it. The reasons for them being this way could be that they're great liars, of course But it is their strength of mind that is of import here.

I mean, Toydarians already have a boosted Willpower and Presence, and they have a respectable Intellect. These bonuses showcase the hallmark of their species and culture, already.

Which is why I think it's great that FFG didn't give them something akin to "+5 Willpower Bonus against Mind Trick." Just leave it narrative, and leave it up to the play group to decide what to do with it on a case-by-case basis.

Okay, well let's look at this differently.

Is saying - "Sicilians are great liars."

The same as saying - "Sicilians are resistant to mind control."?

No, that's not really the same thing, but we don't know anything about how the Force interacts with great liars. We do know that the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded; and if this is true, then it is a logical assumption that the reason mind trick didn't work on Watto and Jabba was that they are both strong-minded. Or strong-willed, or however you might like to say it. The reasons for them being this way could be that they're great liars, of course But it is their strength of mind that is of import here.

I mean, Toydarians already have a boosted Willpower and Presence, and they have a respectable Intellect. These bonuses showcase the hallmark of their species and culture, already.

Which is why I think it's great that FFG didn't give them something akin to "+5 Willpower Bonus against Mind Trick." Just leave it narrative, and leave it up to the play group to decide what to do with it on a case-by-case basis.

I'm not dictating how anyone should play. I'm just making an argument for why Toydarians are not Force Resistant, lol.

The case of Watto or Jabba being liars has nothing to do with it and is largely irrelevant. I brought up the idea of lying because I was making an analogy between Watto and Jabba's species culture being akin to Sicilians as great liars (according to legend.) I never said Watto or Jabba were great liars. I merely said that they were obviously strong-minded, since as we know from the original movies, the Force in this manner (the Mind Trick) only works on the weak minded. And I was pointing out that nothing about that statement even remotely hints at the notion that either one, but in the particular case Watto since he is a Toydarian, is resistant to the Force. That notion is just an assumption.

I don't know how to reply to that post.

I don't know how to reply to that post.

Well... it's basically a summarized version of what I originally said.

Watto being business saavy as a Toydarian is akin to a Sicilian being a great liar - it's a cultural thing, not a species/race thing. Just because Watto is business saavy doesn't make him Force Resistant, and there's nothing actually in the movies that would support the assumption that he is.

In mechanical terms in the game, as a Toydarian, his strength of mind is already factored into the Characteristics of the Species: boosted Willpower and Presence, and an average Intellect. From the original movies, we know that all it takes to beat a Mind Trick is a strong mind - you don't have to be Force Resistant. Clearly, Qui-Gon tried using a Mind Trick on Watto (a Toydarian), and it didn't work. So which is more reasonable to assume?

A) Watto is immune or otherwise resistant to the Force in general? And we know in general, because how does it make sense that he would be specifically immune or resistant to one thing about it - a Mind Trick? How does that make sense?

B) That we use what we already know about the lore of the Force, specifically Mind Tricks, as established in the original films to find humor in a movie gag?

There is nothing in the movies that represent anything along the lines of Toydarians being Force Resistant. Being strong minded doesn't mean you're Force Resistant in a mechanical sense. There's no reason to apply an additional rule for that one specific thing.

At the end of the day, you can agree or disagree. I'm not saying you have to agree. I'm just pointing out the possibility and reasoning behind not being typical, and still being true to cannon. You raised an objection, and I am explaining it further because your objection shows a lack of understanding about what I am speaking of - either I'm not explaining it clearly enough, or you don't understand because you don't want to.

Because I'm a nice guy and I am trying to be polite about it, I am taking responsibility to explain it as best I can, as many times as it takes. Not because it's an important personal issue to me, but because it is an important personal issue to me that I do everything I can to be clear to someone when I speak with them.

If you don't understand simply because you don't want to, then I'm wasting my time talking about it with you. And in that regard... the information is still available and clearly explained as best as I can do it justice, for anyone else to read it.

Essentially, you replied to my post but missed all the relevance. I must have somehow been communicating something completely different to my intent, which caused my agreeing (in essence) with you to appear as a counter argument, which you then (I presume) responded to.

My confusion was mostly due to that fact. I didn't know where to start rebutting without coming off as a complete tw*t.

It comes down to the fact that we both agree that Toydarians and Hutts are strong-willed; however, and forgive me if I'm wrong, you seem to be arguing that some hypothetical "Force Resistant" trait should not exist.

I am arguing that, based on the Toydarian's high base Willpower, they are essentially "Force resistant" for the purposes of the game, and that a "Force Resistant" trait is not needed. According to Enter the Unknown, They have an in-universe reputation as being resistant to manipulation via the Force. Whatever a gaming table chooses to do with this is up to them.

Basically...you agreed with everything I said in my last post, but in a way that sounded like you were disagreeing with me.

There are two things, though, that I feel may still need clarification.

The case of Watto or Jabba being liars has nothing to do with it and is largely irrelevant. I brought up the idea of lying because I was making an analogy between Watto and Jabba's species culture being akin to Sicilians as great liars (according to legend.)

There was never a "case" of Watto or Jabba being liars. I know it's irrelevant. I thought I had made that plain.

I tried to explain that the idea that Sicilians being liars isn't the same as Toydarians being strong-minded, because we don't know how the Force works with liars; we only know how it works against strong-willed beings. The strength of mind is the key, and being a good liar is not relevant to the discussion; whether Hutt, Toydarian, or Sicilian.

There is nothing in the movies that represent anything along the lines of Toydarians being Force Resistant. Being strong minded doesn't mean you're Force Resistant in a mechanical sense. There's no reason to apply an additional rule for that one specific thing.

There is actually something in the movies that represents such things. From Watto: "I'm a Toydarian! Mind tricks don'a work on me; only mon-ay." This is not overwhelmingly convincing evidence, but it is evidence of some sort of cultural (non-game-mechanical, but-still-present-in-Star-Wars-lore) trait. This is represented as a cultural trait in-game with Willpower 3, and is a justification for the bit of relevant fluff in the species' description.

Even so, I agree with the bolded statement: there's no reason for an additional rule to represent this effect.

Well, with consistency in mind, he had to explain why the plot device he used once to make Alec Guiness even cooler can't be used again and again. So he needs to show its limitations, first in RotJ, then again in the Frampton Menace - the latter is important to establish that it's not because of Luke's flawed technique, even seasoned Jedi Masters have this ...reliability issue.

Basically it only works against stormtroopers on Tatooine... and only if the hand waved is Alec Guiness'.

Edit: Ah, forgot the death sticks scene.

You also forgot about Luke mind tricking Bib Fortuna to get into Jabba's Palace.

Anyway, there are tons of weaknesses to the plot and writing int he Star Wars films. To name just a few:

• Why didn't Leia transmit the Death Star plans via the Holonet? It's established that there is interstellar communication, but no reason is given for why this wasn't attempted.
• Why does the Imperial commander not shoot down the escape pod with the droids on it? Were they trying to conserve power or something? Was their electric bill too high that month?
• How does Leia know about Obi-Wan Kenobi, when the guy has been hiding for her entire life, and even the Empire doesn't know about him hiding behind that excellent pseudonym, "Ben Kenobi?"
• Why does the Death Star jump to Yavin from such a poor position behind the planet, giving the Rebels much more time to prepare and defend themselves? Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to wait until they could jump right into firing range? After all, the escapees don't know that they've been tracked, so there's not a huge rush to get to the base.
• Why doesn't the Death Star blast the planet sitting between itself and the Rebel base? The exploding gas giant would probably destroy the moon behind it, or at least make space flight incredibly difficult until the Death Star could get within range to blast it directly.
• Why does the Death Star have an exhaust port without a grating over it? Why does it have a trench big enough for starfighters to fly through? Why is the trench not lined with canons?
• Why does Yoda not tell Luke what he'll be facing (Darth Vader being his father) when Luke leaves Degobah?
• Why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda team up to take out Vader when they were young(er) and spry? Why groom a kid to do it? And how sh*tty is it to get someone to kill their own father without telling them?
• Could Luke and the gang have come with a more convoluted and preposterous plan for liberating Han from Jabba's Palace?
• Why wouldn't Jabba have the droids searched thoroughly?
• Wouldn't it have been easier for Luke to kill Jabba with his lightsaber from the get go? After all, he gets into the palace without being searched, so he could have fairly easily done so when negotiations went south.

Don't even get me started on the prequels, which have it even worse.

Covering some weaknesses in the plot with "plot armor" like immunities is far from the worst things Lucas did with those films.

To answer yeti1069's "complaints"...

Why didn't Leia transmit the Death Star plans via the Holonet? It's established that there is interstellar communication, but no reason is given for why this wasn't attempted.

- The Holonet has been established in the EU to be under very strict Imperial control and observation. If she had transmitted them that way, especially while her ship was under direct attack from an Imperial Star Destroyer, there was a very good chance the Imps would be able to track where those plans were sent, thus putting even more lives at risk.

Why does the Imperial commander not shoot down the escape pod with the droids on it? Were they trying to conserve power or something? Was their electric bill too high that month?

- Laziness, pure and simple. You see it constantly in military organizations. By that point, the fight was pretty much won, so the guy in charge figured "why bother?" since to him, no life-forms = no threat.

All of Dono's answers are basically bs.

You want the real answers? Here:

1 - There was no HoloNet in 1977.
2 - It would have ended the movie prematurely and then Lucas couldn't have ripped off The Hidden Fortress.
3 - At the time, who cares? Presume she knows where this guy is hiding out because of her Dad or the Rebels. Okay, Dono's answer for this one wasn't terrible.
3a - Ignoring the EU where Tantooine becomes the 2nd most visited planet ever, it was supposed to the galactic equivalent of "Bumfukistan". As in no one goes there for any reason.

4 - If it jumped straight in Lucas couldn't have ripped off Dam Busters...
5 - I'm willing to handwave some sort of "can only fire once per encounter".
6 - Duh. With no exhaust port how would the Heroes be able to strike it in it's Achilles Heel? See above "Dam Busters" reference for tranches and running there of. Also, can't really get in any "dog fighting" if it's just AA guns going all the work.
7 - Yoda's a ****. [Male Genitalia].
8 - Yoda turned into a ***** [Female Genitalia] and ran and hid. Also, see above "Yoda" and "is a ****". Probably also a pedophile, I mean seriously how often does he complain the kids are "too old to train, too old"?
9 - Okay, now here I think Luke wasn't terribly dumb. A) He didn't know where his friends were and had to get them out and away from Jabba's guards. He had a bunch of them, "tricking" the slug into limiting how many he could bring out to the Dune Sea (Lando probably knew the Fire Marshal's limits placed on the Pleasure Barge) meant Luke could limit the number he had to face. That he was dropped into the Rancor pit was Lando's Plan A, lose the Kid, Droids, and walking carpet, rescue the Princess who'll be so happy to be rescued she'd fall right into his arms... mmmm hmmm.
10 - Well... yes. But see above Lando tricking Luke. It just failed him so he had to go with Plan B, seduce the Sulustran Co-pilot... actually Luke probably figured he'd be scanned and then might not be able to reach Jabba.

I still argue that the Death Star's superlaser was simply not powerful enough to destroy a gas giant. Blowing a rock the size of Earth (just guessing on size) is nothing compared to a gas giant.

All of Dono's answers are...

Internally consistent within setting and using the available body of lore, both Legends and otherwise.

Quite frankly, any film ever made that was meant primarily as a form of entertainment is going to have the plot fall completely part if put under intense scrutiny. Lord of the Rings is infamous for "why not just use the giant eagles?" since the day it was first published decades ago, and it's deemed a literary classic and the blueprint for fantasy fiction. The Godfather films fall under a similar problem, yet for some reason people consider those to be the best films ever made (I consider them complete and utter crap not worth the film stock used to make them). Casablanca, Maltese Falcon, Raiders of the Lost Ark, they all fall part if you try to force an external view and the viewer's much greater base of information to draw upon. Hell, the entire Star Trek franchise crumbles like a sand castle hit with a tidal wave if you start applying actual real-world logic to it.

To quote the Mystery Science Theater 3000 Mantra: "It's just a show, you really should relax..."

Or perhaps more appropriately, Bellsario's Maxim: "Don't examine this too closely."

Bottom line, the Star Wars films are a collection of stories put together in the hopes of entertaining the audience and making some money for the rights holders. Any actual science that happens in these films is a happy accident. They're meant to tell a story and ultimately to be fun, nothing more. George Lucas was more concerned with the story than the kind if piddling details that some folks insist on picking at.

If you guys want to nitpick the movies so bad then why are you even posting in these threads? Go play a different game where the GM can make a perfect story that has no plot holes and every hero dies because the villains think of everything.

If you guys want to nitpick the movies so bad then why are you even posting in these threads? Go play a different game where the GM can make a perfect story that has no plot holes and every hero dies because the villains think of everything.

It's a shame I can't like this more than once.

Edit: Or as the replacement troll for ErikB illustrates by its post below, some "people" are just a-holes out to amuse themselves rather than make any effort to constructively participate in a given discussion.

Quite frankly, any film ever made that was meant primarily as a form of entertainment is going to have the plot fall completely part...

Never mind. It isn't worth talking about further.

So, would it be possible to have a Force wielding Toydarian?

Watto said "Mind tricks don't work on me...". He didn't say anything about his race being immune to the force. He only resists the mind tricks because his race is strong willed; they have strong minds and as we know the force has power over the "weak minded". The same applies to the Hutts, not immune, just highly resistant.

Never mind. It isn't worth talking about further.

Yeah, it's been pretty well established there's nothing in the rules saying that a Toydarian can't be a Force user.

I almost want to do an Alternate history campaign where Qui Gon did succeed with his Mind Trick. Can you imagine what would have happened if they never met Anakin?

I almost want to do an Alternate history campaign where Qui Gon did succeed with his Mind Trick. Can you imagine what would have happened if they never met Anakin?

A more likely response would be that Qui Gon would've actually shopped around and found the parts in some other shop. Why he believed Watto who claimed he was the only one who had the parts was beyond me. Unless... Watto is a force user and mind tricked Qui Gon!

A more likely response would be that Qui Gon would've actually shopped around and found the parts in some other shop. Why he believed Watto who claimed he was the only one who had the parts was beyond me.