Hello!

Basic question, please help!

How do you guys/gals handle XP expenditures for Force sensitives? Do you let them take any Force talents or any Powers (rationale being they are already limited per RAW, p'haps)

or

do you limit the Force talents/Powers they can invest XP points in (rationale being, since they are learning on their own, perhaps it's more difficult)

or

won't let them acquire any more besides their "starting XP-ones" (rationale being it's impossible w/out a teacher, period)?

For GM's w/long running campaigns: Has not limiting XP expenditures at all it affected PCs long term (i.e., making them "combat gods" or superior to the average party member, for instance) for "the worse"?

Fishing for info before I rule stuff in my game.

Thanks!

L

MTFBWY

A

I have 2 force sensitives in my game. One of them has their Force Sensitivity as their primary character focus. All 5 powers from EotE and AoR are available to them as options, as are both Force Sensitivity trees. If I get my hands on the F&D beta, I may change my views.

At some point I want the FS:Em to get a master, so that may be how he learns anything new that's introduced in the F&D beta.

The only restriction on Force powers are having a Force Rating of 1+. I don't see a need to limit it beyond that. It's not like this is d20 where each power is going to break your game. And the talents, well they aren't all that either.

I honestly don't see why people feel the need to restrict Force users but let non-Force users do whatever they want with no restriction. If a Force Sensitive Exile needs a teacher or holocron to learn Uncanny Reactions, then why doesn't an Assassin need a teacher to learn Dodge? Why does a FSEx need a teacher to learn the Range upgrade from the Move tree, while a Mercenary Soldier doesn't need one to install a marksman barrel?

There are no mechanical nor story reasons why they should be restricted in their XP spending. The Force mechanic is actually really well done, and it's neigh impossible for Force users to be "combat gods" that surpass the combat godhood of a Wookie Marauder. The XP cost to get to that point, though, is pretty dåmn high. Just like any other character, the Force user either specializes in their powers/talents and is good at what they do (just like every other specialized character) or they spread out their XP, taking a lot of talents from a few different trees—again, just like every other jack-of-all-trades).

-EF

I personally force my force players to actively go to places where the force was strong, or a temple. [The Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, The Temple on Mustafar, The Valley of the Jedi, etc] In order to even learn new powers. Jedi / Sith are so rare to find, I figured it was the only way I could truly reason with myself that they would learn from a Force Spirit or something.

The only restriction on Force powers are having a Force Rating of 1+. I don't see a need to limit it beyond that. It's not like this is d20 where each power is going to break your game. And the talents, well they aren't all that either.

I honestly don't see why people feel the need to restrict Force users but let non-Force users do whatever they want with no restriction. If a Force Sensitive Exile needs a teacher or holocron to learn Uncanny Reactions, then why doesn't an Assassin need a teacher to learn Dodge? Why does a FSEx need a teacher to learn the Range upgrade from the Move tree, while a Mercenary Soldier doesn't need one to install a marksman barrel?

I think the desire to limit it would somewhat story driven and understandable. If someone wanted to learn in reality how to lay tile in their house they could go to any home improvement store and get free advice, even free demos and seminars. If you wanted to learn how to be a coopersmith, it might be a little more work. I think Force users are more coopersmith, less tile installer. It would be easy to learn combat tactics from a number of sources, to learn how to manipulate the Force, not so much.

The only restriction on Force powers are having a Force Rating of 1+. I don't see a need to limit it beyond that. It's not like this is d20 where each power is going to break your game. And the talents, well they aren't all that either.

I honestly don't see why people feel the need to restrict Force users but let non-Force users do whatever they want with no restriction. If a Force Sensitive Exile needs a teacher or holocron to learn Uncanny Reactions, then why doesn't an Assassin need a teacher to learn Dodge? Why does a FSEx need a teacher to learn the Range upgrade from the Move tree, while a Mercenary Soldier doesn't need one to install a marksman barrel?

I think the desire to limit it would somewhat story driven and understandable. If someone wanted to learn in reality how to lay tile in their house they could go to any home improvement store and get free advice, even free demos and seminars. If you wanted to learn how to be a coopersmith, it might be a little more work. I think Force users are more coopersmith, less tile installer. It would be easy to learn combat tactics from a number of sources, to learn how to manipulate the Force, not so much.

But at the same time, it's lame for one character to be more limited because "the GM wants teh c00l st0r1ez." The character can easily self-teach, trial and error. That can lead to cool story, too.

"I wasn't strong enough, not fast enough. I won't make the same mistake again. My companions are counting on me." [Character spends 15XP on various upgrades for their Force powers].

I can see why some GMs would want to limit it, but please discuss it with the players, too. Nothing is worse than wanting to play the Force Sensitive and having your GM say, "You can't learn/improve your Force powers until I say." It's super frustrating when the GM and Force sensitive player are not on the same page. In my experience, the GM plays the, "this is my game, so deal with it" card and closes the discussion.

-EF

The only restriction on Force powers are having a Force Rating of 1+. I don't see a need to limit it beyond that. It's not like this is d20 where each power is going to break your game. And the talents, well they aren't all that either.

I honestly don't see why people feel the need to restrict Force users but let non-Force users do whatever they want with no restriction. If a Force Sensitive Exile needs a teacher or holocron to learn Uncanny Reactions, then why doesn't an Assassin need a teacher to learn Dodge? Why does a FSEx need a teacher to learn the Range upgrade from the Move tree, while a Mercenary Soldier doesn't need one to install a marksman barrel?

I think the desire to limit it would somewhat story driven and understandable. If someone wanted to learn in reality how to lay tile in their house they could go to any home improvement store and get free advice, even free demos and seminars. If you wanted to learn how to be a coopersmith, it might be a little more work. I think Force users are more coopersmith, less tile installer. It would be easy to learn combat tactics from a number of sources, to learn how to manipulate the Force, not so much.

But at the same time, it's lame for one character to be more limited because "the GM wants teh c00l st0r1ez." The character can easily self-teach, trial and error. That can lead to cool story, too.

"I wasn't strong enough, not fast enough. I won't make the same mistake again. My companions are counting on me." [Character spends 15XP on various upgrades for their Force powers].

I can see why some GMs would want to limit it, but please discuss it with the players, too. Nothing is worse than wanting to play the Force Sensitive and having your GM say, "You can't learn/improve your Force powers until I say." It's super frustrating when the GM and Force sensitive player are not on the same page. In my experience, the GM plays the, "this is my game, so deal with it" card and closes the discussion.

-EF

I disagree that it's easy to self teach the Force to one self. Luke had a considerable amount of time from episode 4 to episode 5 to do just that and he could barely move a lightsaber out of a snow bank in the Wampa cave.

What you view as punitive and limiting, I view as fodder for great sessions.

That's because he was spending his XP on become a better pilot and Rebel leader, so he was ignoring his training.

Yes, having a teacher is helpful , I'll admit. But that doesn't mean that it's required . I've just been screwed over too many times by a GM changing the rules because he wanted to without discussing the potential change with the rest of the players. In almost every game I play, I'm the wizard/Force user/psychic/sorcerer/etc, and I play by the rules. Then the GM changes the rules after we started to play and was surprised when the rest of the players and I were upset.

I'm not saying don't use it as fodder for a great session, but requiring a "great session" to spend 5XP for a range upgrade for Move seems excessive and not at all how the book suggests to do it.

-EF

To each his own, not how I run my table.

One of my players is planning to take the Force Sensitive Emergent specialization. When he does, he can buy his way down just like it was any other talent tree, no restrictions. Powers, on the other hand, require an instructor. So he's going to have to find someone to teach him how to do those things. I view the abilities in the talent tree(s) to be mostly instinctive/subconscious uses of the Force, while the powers are more conscious manipulation of the Force - and as such require some actual training.

But at the same time, it's lame for one character to be more limited because "the GM wants teh c00l st0r1ez."

The "like" wasn't for this part, I'm not sure why you're mocking that. If it's not cool stories, then it's randomly rolling dice and whacking things...yawn.

I generally agree that a player should be able to do what they want, but sometimes it *is* a cool story to seek out a teacher...but then there is no point to the story if they've already spent their XP getting what they were going to get anyway. If I were running it I'd talk to the player about it, they'd have to be on board of course, if they weren't interested in that there also wouldn't be a point.

But at the same time, it's lame for one character to be more limited because "the GM wants teh c00l st0r1ez."

The "like" wasn't for this part, I'm not sure why you're mocking that. If it's not cool stories, then it's randomly rolling dice and whacking things...yawn.

I generally agree that a player should be able to do what they want, but sometimes it *is* a cool story to seek out a teacher...but then there is no point to the story if they've already spent their XP getting what they were going to get anyway. If I were running it I'd talk to the player about it, they'd have to be on board of course, if they weren't interested in that there also wouldn't be a point.

As long as the player and GM are on the same page, it's cool. I've just been burned too many times by the GM not telling me what new rules they were going to implement until several sessions in.

I'm not against cool stories…I'm against the GM's "fun" being more important than the table's fun.

-EF

In the games I've been in, the only "restriction" the GM has put in place on my various Force-user characters to learn a new power is some measure of exposure, either to a teacher or something that illustrates that said effect is possible. Once my PC has acquired that basic power, he's free to expand upon that power and purchase whichever upgrades I feel are appropriate.

Luke's an odd case, as between Episodes 4 and 5, the majority of his focus was on being a solider for the Rebellion, which would equate to him spending XP on talents for the Pilot specialization and raising his skills, notably Piloting (both Planetary and Space) and Gunnery, but also Ranged (Light) and probably Leadership as well, and maybe even picking up the Squad Leader specialization as well to reflect his being in command of Rogue Squadron. Depending on whether he's using Emergent or convinced the GM to let him snag a Jedi specialization from Force and Destiny, he's probably not done much with that specialization and likely still only has a Force Rating of 1 by the time ESB rolls around.

As for GMs restricting what a Force using PC can and can't spend their XP one, I think a lot of that has to do with their past experiences with Force users in prior games and prior systems. Saga Edition was notorious for how overpowered a Jedi PC could be, even at early levels, and WEG had similar balance problems with experienced Jedi PCs. Granted in many instances the root cause is more to do with the player than the system (as is often the case when it comes to "broken game mechanics" based upon my own experiences).

And some GMs simply prefer to take what amounts to "knee-jerk preventive measures" such as those that 2P51 has implemented. But as long as he and the players are on the same page, that he's made these restrictions known up front , and the player in question is on board with it, then more power to them. Then again, to my mind it shows an underlying lack of trust that the GM doesn't trust the player to not keep themselves in check.

But as EldritchFire alluded to, it sucks having the GM suddenly remember "oh yeah, I've house-ruled that your character can't do that cool thing" just as you're about to try said "cool thing" for the first time. While the GM is there to have fun as well, it's just as important that everyone at the table have fun, and said fun shouldn't come at the expense of someone else's fun. Which goes for jerk-ass players running the game for the GM and other players just as much as jerk-ass GMs abusing their authority and restricting what one player can do while letting the rest have their fun without restriction.

How do you guys/gals handle XP expenditures for Force sensitives? Do you let them take any Force talents or any Powers (rationale being they are already limited per RAW, p'haps)

What Force powers the PC develops is going to inform the fiction vis-a-vis what kind of person the PC is becoming, how his training is going. Rarely does a game system afford such wonderful transparency. Is he learning knowledge and defense, or how to become a better killer? As a GM, I think I'd rather blow my own grandmother out an airlock (sorry, nana) than let such an opportunity go to waste by sticking my thumb on the scale.

The only thing I don't let my player with the Force sensitive PC do is plow through the power trees with banked XP. I limit it to 1 branch deeper per downtime. So if he works at it his character develops his powers at a brisk pace, but if he neglects them for a downtime or two then he's clearly not going to achieve Force mastery.

But then again, I don't let any of the players just plow with their XP, so it's not just a Force-sensitive thing.

The only thing I don't let my player with the Force sensitive PC do is plow through the power trees with banked XP. I limit it to 1 branch deeper per downtime. So if he works at it his character develops his powers at a brisk pace, but if he neglects them for a downtime or two then he's clearly not going to achieve Force mastery.

But then again, I don't let any of the players just plow with their XP, so it's not just a Force-sensitive thing.

That's actually not a bad idea, both in regards to Force powers and to talent trees. Could also be applied to skills as well, cutting down on the "instant expert" scenario of a PC going from zero ranks in a skill to 2 or 3 after dropping a bunch of banked XP on said skill.

Granted, none of the games I've played in have had that be a concern, as the players tend to spend their XP as quickly as they get it, and only "bank" XP when they need to save up for a 20/25 XP talent.

The only restriction on Force powers are having a Force Rating of 1+. I don't see a need to limit it beyond that. It's not like this is d20 where each power is going to break your game. And the talents, well they aren't all that either.

I honestly don't see why people feel the need to restrict Force users but let non-Force users do whatever they want with no restriction. If a Force Sensitive Exile needs a teacher or holocron to learn Uncanny Reactions, then why doesn't an Assassin need a teacher to learn Dodge? Why does a FSEx need a teacher to learn the Range upgrade from the Move tree, while a Mercenary Soldier doesn't need one to install a marksman barrel?

There are no mechanical nor story reasons why they should be restricted in their XP spending.

I'm in complete agreement with EF here.

I very much understand why some people want to add a level of role-play to the acquiring of Force abilities, I also like the idea of having any advancement tied to story development. However, there is no mechanical justification for adding this requirement to Force abilities at this time (there may be when Force & Destiny comes out for higher level powers, but I doubt there will be a mechanic built into the RAW for this). Mechanically Force powers on average are no more effective then an equal level of EXP expended on other abilities. They may do different things and have a different flavor but this is all Fluff and point for point they're pretty much the same. So unless you are going to impose similar restrictions on other Player's PCs you are upsetting the balance of fairness at the table.

Take a moment to think on this. Divorce the Fluff from the Mechanic and see if this restriction you're imposing on some players and not others is fair. I'm arguing that it's not and that if you're going to add extra requirements to gain or improve Force abilities you should also add an equal level of extra requirements to all PC advancements regardless of type so that no Player is treated unfairly.

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't add extra requirements if they feel it adds to the overall story and immersion in the game, anything that adds to these things is great, I'm saying mechanically it's an unfair restriction to the FS or FE Player and as such needs to be applied to every Player or to none.

I have 2 Force users in my game and the only limit I've placed on them is no lightsabers until I get my hands on the F&D Beta. And since that's just a few shorts weeks away, one of my players and I have already started discussing it.

Luke had a considerable amount of time from episode 4 to episode 5 to do just that and he could barely move a lightsaber out of a snow bank in the Wampa cave.

Luke was also injured, with a head wound, possibly a concussion. He had been hanging upside down unconscious for awhile. And he was more than likely bitterly cold. I'm sure it must have been super hard to concentrate on retrieving his lightsaber in desperation as the wampa was coming at him. We really don't know how much he was able to teach himself in all that time between Episode 4 and Episode 5 because we weren't shown much of anything about his Force abilities until we went to Dagobah. Just sayin'.

I don't agree or disagree with requiring training for Force users or somehow limiting them, but in general, limiting a player on their choices of how to build up their own abilities should require a good rationale. The Force is sorcery or wizardry (or religion) to some. Story-wise, that takes a bit more than learning how to aim and pull a trigger or swing a vibeo-axe or doing push ups until your Strain gets bigger. What we see is that there is generally a teacher and a student. When the student graduates, they typically have a period of self-learning and errant Jedi-ing and then take on a student themselves.

I do agree that, within the confines of the Force Sensitive Specs, a player should not be limited to how they spend their XP. In other words, the Force limitations are already in place in the game. It takes a lot of experience, aka learning, to get to Force Rating 2 for Sensitives, or Dedication for every character. Until we see how things work in FnD, Sensitives are already limited to only five powers and, at most, Force Rating 3 - through a ton of XP.

I think it might be perfectly acceptable to tell a Force Sensitive they are limited to the five available powers and the two available Specs and can develop all that to the extent of those Spec and Talent sheets, on their own with their own XP, but cannot pick up anything new from the FnD book (depending on what will be in there, of course) without a guide and mentor who knows the ways of the Force and can give proper instruction. Then finding a teacher becomes the focus of a new quest for the young learner.

I think it's a bad GM who limits players on how to spend XP. And it's an awful GM who lords over the table with things like "it's my game, take it or leave it." It's everyone's game. Everyone at the table, the players more so than the GM in my opinion, have a say on how their story unfolds. The GM is not a Sith Lord.

How I work it is that if they don't have a good reason to be learning the force power (like a teacher or a holocron) then it costs 10 extra experience for what I call "discovery"