Maelora, you simply must tell me more about these Move stories. Mine are so limited to my player using a B1 "Roger Roger" droid and hitting him against another B1.

Yes, whenever our Exile gets 3 pips, it's 'Stormtrooper Skittles' time. (Or TIE Skittles time, seeing as how it costs no more to Move any object up to your maximum Silhouette Upgrade....)

Move seems kinda overpowered, but Jo is Brawn 2 with no armour, and even a minion with a rifle could one-shot her if she's not careful. Plus, she has no combat skills outside telekinesis and shouting stormtroopers to death using Improved Scathing Tirade. And trust me, hearing 'HEY STORMTROOPERS - YOU SUCK!!!' gets old when it's used every single round.

Also, a full Move tree costs 150 XP, plus another 130 to get the second Force dice. That's a significant investment, I think.

I see your point about not wanting a repeat of the FU nonsense, 2P51, but if you nerf Move so hard, surely nobody would want it?

It isn't too hard though. In my opinion someone that had progressed through exile and emergent would have force rating three. Then force and destiny becomes available and they move through one of those trees so they become force rating four that and sort of capability becomes possible. I don't think that's too hard at all I think it's perfectly realistic.

and finally the damage is measured in personal scale not vehicle, so the at-ats armor can take it.

Actually we just ruled that being launched upwards to Extreme range and then crashing down wipes them out. (Heck, Luke took one out with a tow cable on Hoth. Those things are screwed if they get toppled over...)

Sometimes you have to be realistic. If I took my car or motorbike to the top of the 23-story building where I work, and heaved it off the roof, it would be scrap metal when it hit the pavement.

Likewise, we don't use Soak if someone is, say, stabbing you while you're asleep. Otherwise it would be impossible to hurt a 9 Soak PC even if he was stark naked if you were just a normal 2 Brawn human with a kitchen knife. ("I keep stabbing him, but he just rolls over and goes back to sleep!")

To allow it to still be possible it's just not something that an entry-level user will be able to accomplish. Yoda is clearly straining when he moves the X wing. He has some upgrades to range. So to me to allow an exile to roll two dice and move a walker is ridiculous. Just my table and how I run it, others can do whatever they like, I think my way is more in the spirit of the movies.

I agree that anything that keeps FU silliness to a minimum is a good thing.

Silhouette 4 is about the minimum I could envisage.

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario. Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with. It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Yeah that's the thing to remember with the Move power, is that it's blatantly obvious. Maybe note quite "clown at a funeral" level of obvious, but up there.

Relying on Move as your "go to" combat tactic is going to draw a lot of attention, especially if you have a routine habit of going up against Imperials.

Maelora's got a valid point in that unless you've got a character with a Force Rating of 2 or better, Move really isn't that reliable of a power, and even with FR 2 the best you can reliably hope for is 2 Force Points, which lets you activate the base power and one upgrade. Of course, you could spend a Destiny Point and suffer some strain to convert those dark side pips into usable Force Points, but that's reliant upon having that Destiny Point available in the first place. There's also the as-of-yet undisclosed matter of long-term repercussions of becoming too reliant upon the dark side, but that's a matter for Force and Destiny to discuss. Oh, and if you want to have that nifty Sense defensive upgrade going, that's going to cut down on your Force awesomeness as well since that's one less Force die you have available to roll.

To say nothing of having to spend all that XP to jack up Move to be that powerful in the first place, which is XP that other characters are spending on skills and talents. In one game I'm in, it's not my "minor Jedi" (Human Scoundrel/Emergent) that's the biggest bad-ass in the group, it's the Wookiee Commando that can either shoot you dead with his blaster rifle or hack you into bloody bits with his vibro-ax that's the real combat powerhouse of the group. The Chiss Tactician is no slouch either with her blaster pistol, and the Outlaw Tech isn't too far off either given the modifications she's started to apply to her heavy blaster pistol.

As for the "Force Unleashed" levels of nuttiness, I will admit that I can see the allure for some in playing a Force-user of that degree of power. It does make for a fun video game, but having played one such PC (in Saga Edition), I assure the novelty wears off fairly quickly when hurling massive Imperial walkers around like they were marbles becomes a trivial skill check that you have to struggle to fail.

When F&D comes along, and PCs with 4 or 5 Force Dice become the norm, I might feel the same way, 2P51.

But as I don't allow cross-book multi-classing, the maximum the PCs can have is 2, which requires either a good roll, or standing close to the ATAT (within Short range) which has problems of its own.

And requires over 300 XP in any case. You can get a lot of skills to maximum levels with 300 XP.

I don't feel as though Yoda was especially strained with the X-wing. He's concentrating rather deeply, but he picks it up from the bottom of a swamp rather quickly and gracefully.

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario. Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with. It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

Yoda seems pretty serene to me when he's lifting the X-Wing.

And in any case, there's nothing in the movies that really suggests he's insanely powerful. His role there is to be wise, to be a mentor and point out that appearances are deceptive. I know they made him into a Total Badass Raging Engine of Destruction in the EU and prequels, but he doesn't do anything on Dagobah to suggest he has 9 or 10 Force Dice.

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario. Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with. It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

I must admit I might feel a tad short-changed if I spent 300+ points on something that gets nerfed so hard. Needing 6 pips is impossible with 2 Force Dice, and has less than 5% chance with 3.

You could fill one of the trees like Marauder or Sharpshooter for that, grab a vibro-axe or heavy blaster rifle and be overpowered that way for the same cost.

But of course, whatever suits your table, assuming the players are happy with it. I made the Heavy Blaster Rifle to be Restricted, just for that reason.

The biggest action done with Move that I remember are:

- Lift an X-Wing (12.5 meters) Episode V

- Move heavy confederation battle tanks (between 9.19m and 12.53) Clone Wars

- Lift and launch various senate seats (about 3 meters) Episode III

There are also a few samples of moving other objects, at same time, but this one are the bigger ones.

In most cases, the users doesn't seem that have so many difficulties to do it. So, why we have to add more scales? Maybe that's the true limit of the Force. Off course, this doesn't mean that this samples are the "max" power the Force have, but it would be a good universe canon reference.

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario. Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with. It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

I must admit I might feel a tad short-changed if I spent 300+ points on something that gets nerfed so hard. Needing 6 pips is impossible with 2 Force Dice, and has less than 5% chance with 3.

You could fill one of the trees like Marauder or Sharpshooter for that, grab a vibro-axe or heavy blaster rifle and be overpowered that way for the same cost.

But of course, whatever suits your table, assuming the players are happy with it. I made the Heavy Blaster Rifle to be Restricted, just for that reason.

Yes but bounty hunters are not going to be able to spend 300 experience points and with a wave of their hand destroy a silhouette 4 vehicle. A 5% chance of being able to toss an AT-AT for some lowby Exile/Emergent sounds about right to me. Luke was being trained by the preeminent Jedi Master and he certainly couldn't do it.

I just don't feel that someone who's spent 330 XP on the spec, then 110 + 110 + 150 = 700 XP to max all the trees, would necessarily count as 'lowly'.

Yes, they would be raw and untrained compared to a Jedi in terms of power dice, but high XP + 2 Force Dice seems to reflect the potentially-potent-but-self-taught force-user that the Exile class represents. (Not to mention that there are serious role-playing considerations for someone who manifests Force powers flagrantly in public).

If you assume that Lando (by his JoY stats) and the lead characters in the movies had maxed 3-4 specs by the time the credits roll in 'Return'... Luke on Dagobah was probably only about 500 XP at that point, most of which he'd put into his Career.

As I've said, it's whatever suits your table, but it seems harsh that it can't be attained using the EoE rules.

But I can see why anyone (except Erik B) would feel leery of going into overpowered FU territory.

I think it's worth mentioning I am only pointing out the whole silhouette 4 scenario. Under my method a FR 4 character would be able to flick something like speeder bikes about willy nilly, which I'm ok with. It's just there has to be more restriction on silhouette size than 10 points of xp per step imo and I don't think a pip for each silhouette size is unfair particularly.

Not unfair at all.

I must admit I might feel a tad short-changed if I spent 300+ points on something that gets nerfed so hard. Needing 6 pips is impossible with 2 Force Dice, and has less than 5% chance with 3.

You could fill one of the trees like Marauder or Sharpshooter for that, grab a vibro-axe or heavy blaster rifle and be overpowered that way for the same cost.

But of course, whatever suits your table, assuming the players are happy with it. I made the Heavy Blaster Rifle to be Restricted, just for that reason.

Yes but bounty hunters are not going to be able to spend 300 experience points and with a wave of their hand destroy a silhouette 4 vehicle. A 5% chance of being able to toss an AT-AT for some lowby Exile/Emergent sounds about right to me. Luke was being trained by the preeminent Jedi Master and he certainly couldn't do it.

And at 300xp a hired gun can wipe an entire combat in a single move, or absorb a hit that would 1-shot a small vehicle....

Just saying as the new class books appear so are more epic powers.

He can't wipe out a silhouette 4 vehicle.

This is an unresolvable problem with force-users. They have 'magic' in a world that is otherwise mundane.

In-universe, they have (particularly in the last 20 years of the EU) become so uber-cool, so 'badass', so SO much better than anyone and everything else... The original movies were more restrained, but even so, anyone of any importance is ultimately a Jedi. Even Han could be eliminated from the movies without majorly affecting the plot trajectory. (Yes, he's cool and everything, but after the Death Star he's just along for the ride, or just baggage. Essentially, he's just the 'love interest'...)

EoE impressed me by making the Han and Wedge -type characters cool again. I liked the relatively-restrained way they deferred the Jedi, but gave us a taste of the Force. It wouldn't feel like Star Wars without it.

But some people will be leery of overpowered FU-style shenanegans. Force-use has destroyed the balance of every Star Wars game up to this point, after all, rendering non-Jedi into support roles. Characters like Leia or Kyle Katarn, who should never have been Jedi, were made so - just so we understood they were important. This unpalatable trend reached its nadir with the horror of Eff-You; Force-users as anime superheroes.

Players are going to want Force-users to be awesome, as depicted in the various media. GMs are going to want balance, as far as that's possible. I guess it's going to be down to every table to find its own balance, especially when F&D comes out. I haven't nerfed Move myself, our Exile is a glass cannon and works as intended... but I can see why other GMs might.

(and if Force-use is prompting lively debate now, imagine how much more intense it will be when F&D drops and they give us full-on Jedi...)

I could see some sort of mechanic in force and destiny imposing a more severe restriction or consequence converting dark into the light side points. That would certainly allay my issues with Move.

Maelora 23rd August!

In one of my games, one of my players have a FR6 Jedi with more than 1.800 XP... and he still suffers every time he fight droids or Storm Troopers XD

In general therms, when he rolls FR he uses to get above 2 pips. In some excpetional cases he rolled 6 or 7, but 2 uses to be the most common result.

He has almost all Move tree and we adapted almost every talent or power scale of power to focus on canon instead balance.

Also, we let the commits stack, so he gets about 4 Red Dices when he gets attacked... and he uses to be damaged almost every combat XD

So, Force is REALLY powerful, but not overpowered from my point of view.

I could see some sort of mechanic in force and destiny imposing a more severe restriction or consequence converting dark into the light side points. That would certainly allay my issues with Move.

Y'see, it's funny, but I really want to get away from all the alignment stuff!

The existing mechanic covers all I'll ever need for using the opposite side; flip a Destiny Point, spend some strain for going slightly against your nature. But that's it, job done.

I understand why people want to do the 'fall to the dark side' thing, it's thematic to the movies, but I'd sooner resolve that narratively. I really don't want rules for an alignment system. Certainly not in the 'Han Shot First' setting of EoE.

In one of my games, one of my players have a FR6 Jedi with more than 1.800 XP... and he still suffers every time he fight droids or Storm Troopers XD

I guess you're using house rules, Josep? I know someone's done some Jedi conversions.

I must admit, I can't see an 1800 XP character having trouble with minions!

Well, untill the moment the only "house rules" that we apply are that he have Defense 3 (2 from lightsaber and 1 from... Jedi?), we let stack commits (from Sense for example, thats from where 4 Red comes) and he have a FR6 by... well, we like that XD

In general therms he uses to win, but those 1.800+ still have problems with for example a 3Y 1Boost robot minions or a pack of 6 Stormtroopers + 1 Boost from Officer so 3Y 2G 1B... and he have Soak 6 XDD

With force, yep, in general therms he always achieve 2 or 3 pips, but, no more. He is a really powerful character but... he fears every combat XDD

Actually we are looking for a good combar/space combat patch to try to solve it.

And when I mean "Jedi" I mean "strong guy with the Force and that recives some Defense wearing a lightsaber" XD No extra talent or house rules there.

Yes, but how do you get 6 Force Dice using only EoE and AOR? I assume you'd be using someone's homebrew rules for Jedi?

From nowhere XD I mean, we decided that that PC must have that FR. The rest is 100% rules with the exception from Commit Stack and Lightsaber add some Defense.

Not that I expect that they will do this, but "punishment" for darksider activities can be handled in a morally objective manner.

That is to say what is punishment for a player wanting to avoid the dark side could be welcomed by a wannabe Sith.

We see a sliver of this in EotE already. Dark side pips are to be avoided, but it is possible to flip the perspective and play with them as your fuel by default.

As the nature of the Galaxy Far Far Away defaults to "Jedi = Good" and "Sith/Darkside = Bad" I think the standard rules should play to that... However, there could still be a method in place for... oh let's just go with "rage"... to work against a "standard Force-Sensitive" but for a character operating under the "dark side pips as fuel" rules to turn disadvantages* into advantages*.

Sure that setting may call you "immoral", but your character (and certainly not you as a player) have to accept that they are correct.

*I am using the terms advantages and disadvantages in very broad and undefined terms... I am ill prepared to invent a system, at this time. Even just by way of example.

This is an unresolvable problem with force-users. They have 'magic' in a world that is otherwise mundane.

In-universe, they have (particularly in the last 20 years of the EU) become so uber-cool, so 'badass', so SO much better than anyone and everything else... The original movies were more restrained, but even so, anyone of any importance is ultimately a Jedi. Even Han could be eliminated from the movies without majorly affecting the plot trajectory. (Yes, he's cool and everything, but after the Death Star he's just along for the ride, or just baggage. Essentially, he's just the 'love interest'...)

EoE impressed me by making the Han and Wedge -type characters cool again. I liked the relatively-restrained way they deferred the Jedi, but gave us a taste of the Force. It wouldn't feel like Star Wars without it.

But some people will be leery of overpowered FU-style shenanegans. Force-use has destroyed the balance of every Star Wars game up to this point, after all, rendering non-Jedi into support roles. Characters like Leia or Kyle Katarn, who should never have been Jedi, were made so - just so we understood they were important. This unpalatable trend reached its nadir with the horror of Eff-You; Force-users as anime superheroes.

Players are going to want Force-users to be awesome, as depicted in the various media. GMs are going to want balance, as far as that's possible. I guess it's going to be down to every table to find its own balance, especially when F&D comes out. I haven't nerfed Move myself, our Exile is a glass cannon and works as intended... but I can see why other GMs might.

(and if Force-use is prompting lively debate now, imagine how much more intense it will be when F&D drops and they give us full-on Jedi...)

That's entirely on the GM. They don't have to say yes to everyone that wants a jedi, nor should they. I'll be surprised if I have more then one, actual jedi, in the entire time I run this game. I've had a wazoo of force users, most of which have died at the hands of the other party members (too liberal with the force use, bountys on them too high to resist), but the party doesn't want to be labeled as "known associates" either. That seriously cuts into their street cred.

That said, I think most of F&D is going to concentrate on "other" traditions. Even encouraging them. I get that from multiple conversations with developers, including the order 66 pod casts, and even when they first announced the three game settings, they were very careful with the "write-up" on it. Now this may have changed to meet player demands, over the last two years, but cowing to player demands isn't something FFG is exactly known for. I have no doubt there will be a blurb for jedi, just don't think it's going to unleash KOTOR on the system.

I could see some sort of mechanic in force and destiny imposing a more severe restriction or consequence converting dark into the light side points. That would certainly allay my issues with Move.

It's a narrative system.... if you don't have a consequence for converting dark side points, especially if you're doing it often, then your GM is failing. There isn't going to be a mechanic for it, nor should there be. That gives players a line to toe, and rules to support said line.

I've, personally, had multiple times where the party has killed the force using party members. That's at least 4 times in the last 6 months. I've had the force take over a character, doing like a werewolf movie, where they wake up half naked and covered in blood, yet responsible for all their actions while "blacked" out. At the same time, the dark side doesn't care who sees what, doesn't care about security cameras, doesn't care about witnesses In a bar fight, a dark side influenced character will use force lightening on someone and leave. Sometimes I don't have the force user black out, I just make them do some evil thing, like force lightening. They don't get a say in the matter. I do this with players that fail to "role play" their characters converting to the dark side, being ruled by anger/fear/aggression. In truth, when they play it, in character, the party kills them, when I have to do it for them... they still end up neck deep in dung. Authorities after them, bounty hunters, people looking to cash in on the rewards for their capture or kill. Remember the common populace hates them, and thinks they are responsible for their current living conditions.

If said vehicle is occupied, said jedi will be accumulating dark side energy for using the force to attack the living.... big no-no. But that has to be one hell of a strong jedi to be able to grab a sil 4 vehicle. One that didn't get that strong by being stupid.