Alright all my GM wanted me to ask about this and i remember reading about this in one of the books but I looked and couldn't find it so here i be, as the title say our AM got BC muscle grafts and is looking at power fists. So does this still work as double with the power fist doubling his SB after its doubled for unnatural strength or does it just add one to it so he would have X3 instead of X2 any thoughts would be appreciated.

Ultimately, it's up to the GM. By RAW, power fists literally do 2XSB damage, and SB includes unnatural strength by default, so there you have it.

I doubt this was the intention, but that's neither here nor there.

I figured that would be the case I can understand how this stuff would slip through the cracks lots of things you cant predict people will do with gear and such, thanks for the quick reply

If he is using Black Crusade Muscle Graft (by which I assume you mean Synthmuscle), he gets +1 SB from the Synthmuscle, because Unnatural Characteristics work differently than in Rogue Trader. Instead of being multiplicatively, it works additively.

However, it also just occured to me that you might mean Best-Craftsmanship, not Black Crusade, which is the reason it's terrible to use random abbreviations on a public forum unless it's use is widely established.

If so, Power Fists does not give you Unnatural Strength (...I just checked the widely-used Warhammer 40k Roleplay Armory spreadsheet, and it actually notes it wrong, just a heads up). It simply does 2d10+(SBx2) Damage instead of the normal. So in your case, the Unnatural Strength (x2) would double the Strength Bonus, and then the Power Fist would do twice the Strength Bonus in additional damage.

So with a Strength of 50 and Unnatural Strength (x2), the character would have a Strength Bonus of 10, and the Power Fist would do a total of 2d10+20 Energy Damage, Pen 9.

The way Unnatural Characteristics works in pre-Black Crusade is stupid. They should've split up the functionality in two different Traits, one that worked by multiplying the Characteristics Bonus and one that worked by adding to the Characteristics Bonus. But.. that's a whole different argument.

yes I did mean synthetic muscle grafts. BC versions grants unnatural strength X2 common versions add +1 to strength bonus. the power fist just does strength bonus X2 for damage adding, I was wondering if that just doubled the unnatural bonus or if it should just add +1 to it or some thing I might crunch the numbers later to see which is more damaging.

Obviously, double the double is more. Because the other way your just left with triple.

It sounded funnier in my head.

Note: Actually, everything sounds funny in my head because I imagine a minion from Despicible Me in there narrating what I think. And then another comes along and distracts him. I think that represents my Alzheimer's, but alas, I can't remember.

yes I did mean synthetic muscle grafts. BC versions grants unnatural strength X2 common versions add +1 to strength bonus. the power fist just does strength bonus X2 for damage adding, I was wondering if that just doubled the unnatural bonus or if it should just add +1 to it or some thing I might crunch the numbers later to see which is more damaging.

Do you really need to "crunch the numbers" to figure out if SBx2(x2) is more or less than SB+1(x2)?

Unless your Strength is 10 or lower, that should be fairly obvious.

And I can't be the one that keep reading "BC" as "Black Crusade". Am I?

ah I now see your confusion I intended BC to be best craftsman ship sorry for not clarifying, and maybe most don't need to crunch them but i like to see the trail of math instead of having no paper trail so to speak when i get distracted mid way through my math problem.

ah I now see your confusion I intended BC to be best craftsman ship sorry for not clarifying, and maybe most don't need to crunch them but i like to see the trail of math instead of having no paper trail so to speak when i get distracted mid way through my math problem.

The "crunch" in terms of which is more powerful is literally what I posted, that's all there is to it.

well thanks for saving me the paper but in any case I will inform my GM and he can decide what to do about it. he usualy uses raw though but we will see

I would add the modifiers together like they use in Deathwatch

So in this situation Best craft Synth Muscle Crafts (Unnatural Strength x2) + Power Fist (SBx)2 would come out x3. Not (SBx2)x2

ah that might be were i read that from

I've always played it as unnatural stats stacking. If you get a x2 and a x2, it becomes x3, if you get another x2 it's x4. Might be considered broken, but I've always played my games as high adventure, broken as all get out sort of things.

It's also good fun to use on players.

I've always played it as unnatural stats stacking. If you get a x2 and a x2, it becomes x3, if you get another x2 it's x4. Might be considered broken, but I've always played my games as high adventure, broken as all get out sort of things.

It's also good fun to use on players.

This is how it's also meant to work according to the rules for Unnatural Characteristics on page 368. Although wording for the Power Fist is a little weird, I play it with granting an extra level of Unnatural Strength.

Why are so many of you determined to confuse the issue, after the guy already got a complete explanation?

Because everyone has a different view point. And it's humorous to see the mayhem.

Consensus can not be reached without everybody giving their voice

There is no consensus needed. The rules are clear.

I've always played it as unnatural stats stacking. If you get a x2 and a x2, it becomes x3, if you get another x2 it's x4. Might be considered broken, but I've always played my games as high adventure, broken as all get out sort of things.

It's also good fun to use on players.

This is how it's also meant to work according to the rules for Unnatural Characteristics on page 368. Although wording for the Power Fist is a little weird, I play it with granting an extra level of Unnatural Strength.

The thing is, Power Fists do not grant Unnatural Strength . It does 2d10+SBx2 in damage.

It's two completely different things.

Because everyone has a different view point. And it's humorous to see the mayhem.

Consensus can not be reached without everybody giving their voice

While it's interesting to discuss different views and come up interesting arguments on how this or that person plays something, whether RAW conforms with RAI or so, etc, etc, etc, the issue itself is settled. Like Magellan said, the rules are clear .

There is no point in continued argument on how it's meant to work, and there is no need to reach some kind of consensus. The way it actually works is very clear and there is practically no room for interpretation.

If anyone wants to argue about how they'd play it, feel free to do so. I'll even throw my hat into the ring on how this might be conflicting with RAI. In the Errata, for the Mezoa-Pattern Thunder Hammer, it mentions that: "The Mezoa-Pattern Thunder Hammer doubles the user’s Strength Bonus when dealing Damage (or, if the user already has Unnatural Strength, it adds one to the user’s Unnatural Strength Modifier)."

While this might be an incredibly stupid piece of rrrata (since it means that the hammer increases any Unnatural Strength beyond 2 by +1, instead of just increasing damage; thanks Obama !), it might have been intended (RAI, as opposed to RAW) that instead of adding Unnatural Strength or doing Melee Damage of +SBx2, it simply should grant Unnatural Strength for the purpose of melee damage calculation. I'd expect that, had FFG been better on Erratas, this would likely have been meant to apply to Power Fists as well.

But again, Unnatural Characteristics as it works in Rogue Trader is stupid.

Well this post is still alive i'm surprised but its definitely interesting to read.

Fgdsfg, that's not entirely correct. It adds not to your SB, but to the *modifier*, which is 2, making the new modifier 3. That makes it SBx3, just as intended.

Fgdsfg, that's not entirely correct. It adds not to your SB, but to the *modifier*, which is 2, making the new modifier 3. That makes it SBx3, just as intended.

I'm not convinced. It says "Unnatural Strength Modifier". This to me reads as if applying to Unnatural Strength with the number in parenthesis being the modifier, so Unnatural Strength (x2) becomes Unnatural Strength (x3); tripling the Strength Bonus.

And I don't think the Mezoa-Pattern Thunder Hammer was ever intended to add Unnatural Strength alone. Pre-Errata, it functioned like the Power Fist, counting it's Strength Bonus twice. Post-Errata, if the player has Unnatural Strength (starting at (x2), it increases the Unnatural Strength to (x3). It says nothing about this being specifically for the purpose of melee damage calculations.

See the issue now?

The best way to change the wording of these objects would be: "This weapon grants the Unnatural Strength (x2) Trait for the purpose of Melee Damage while using the weapon. If the user already has Unnatural Strength, it instead increases the Unnatural Strength Modifier by +1 for the purpose of Melee Damage while using the weapon".

Or something to that effect. Or at least that's my interpretation of RAI.

Oh, I completely misread your last post. My bad.

1. For Craftsmanship, in many groups I have been in, it's abbreviated to PQ/CQ/GQ/BQ, a bonus is that I don't know any other 40k RPG abbreviates for that to get confused with

2. By Raw it's a flat x2 on top of whatever you have, which avoids the "cap" on Unnatural Bonuses (the +1x versus SBx2 twice =/= SBx4 but rather SBx3).

3. It's not that huge a of change to do it like the Macrohammer and if your SB is getting pretty high it isn't that bad.

4. The flat modifier of BC onwards tends to work better and functions how it was meant to be. A way to give someone superhuman or unnatural a way to be better, without making their rolls beyond crazy (such as Unnatural Agility + Dodge VS High Agility + Dodge)