Hi!

Not trying to be negative here, I just want to air my thoughts, see if anyone else agrees/differs, and maybe try to *gasp!* sway the content of future sourcebooks a little.

Case in point: here come the Gran again!

Species repetition. We've all talked about it, we've all posted our views in different threads, but I think the subject deserves its own thread so that maybe the designers can keep an eye on it.

The Company Line is, of course, "these are separate -but compatible- game lines!". I get that. I even like it. Three giant core books look pretty on my shelf. But is any of us really only buying into just one line? Really? If so, why are there no threads on the AoR boards asking, "why won't this game let me play a Wookiee?"

I could've almost believed that this is what FFG actually think, if they hadn't added a promotional link to AoR in this, their latest preview for EotE. They know we all want everything - and for the newcomers who somehow may not be aware that there is another line (and another on the way!), FFG are only too happy to link 'em.

More power to 'em, I say: make more money! Make more books!

But back to the species issue. Barring the slightly ludicrous idea that FFG is 'sharing' the species with the players of each individual game, the principal justification I can think of for spreading species so thin is this: FFG want to make sure they have at least two 'name brand' playable aliens in every book. You know, guys we saw in the films. Sure, SoF is an exception to the rule, but since the one 'name brand' species in that book was basically Han Solo, that sort of skews things a little.

I guess my take on it is, "loosen up, FFG!". We all know there are a staggering amount of aliens in the SW universe. Missing out on (insert your favourite species here) to see the Gran again is kind of disheartening. Of course we all bought AoR... and if we didn't, we're going to eventually (unless I'm wrong on that - you tell me!).

So what I would like to see is ONE 'name brand' alien per book, with two of the wilder EU aliens offered up along with it. There's more than enough good ones to go on that this formula could easily last the remainder of the run of all three games. Hell, give me brand-new, original aliens. Get creative! How much fun it would be to open a new SW sourcebook and really discover something we've never heard of before.

Because if every species we have is going to be repeated in every forthcoming book for EotE, AoR, and F&D, trust me, it's gonna get a little more painful every time...

How many species left are there that could be presented, anyone counted? We've got A CRB to go, 15 splatbooks, probably another regional sourcebook or two, so that's maybe 17 or 18 more books with at least 2 new species each, more in the CRB, so probably 40ish they need to keep introducing new a pair at least in each book. Are there that many left?

Depending on how deep into the EU/Legends pool they want to dive, there are well over 40 species remaining.

Or are allowed to. Bears keeping in mind all this gets sanitized by the canon police at Disney, so they may already have a go/no go list and are publishing accordingly.

Or are allowed to. Bears keeping in mind all this gets sanitized by the canon police at Disney, so they may already have a go/no go list and are publishing accordingly.

That's certainly true. I wonder if such a policy (if it is indeed in place) would preclude the creation of new aliens, too. I still feel like that was one of the main draws of WEG's Star Wars - the newness of it all.

Still, the inclusion of the Starkiller stuff in AoR (considering its been deemed non-canon by LFL) leads me to suspect that FFG can do what they want with anything that's come out thus far, with the caveat that LFL may at any time, of course, overwrite it.

I would think cherry picking stuff from the EU is ok, as long as it isn't something that's going to appear in the upcoming films and they have some rationale for keeping it on the down low. Creating new stuff might also be ok, but the lead time on that would be pretty far out in order to get approval early enough in the development process of a book to get it incorporated to be published. Somehow I have a feeling this is something that has already been mapped out and the numbers of species we are seeing introduced including the duplication is all part of the plan.

Or are allowed to. Bears keeping in mind all this gets sanitized by the canon police at Disney, so they may already have a go/no go list and are publishing accordingly.

That's certainly true. I wonder if such a policy (if it is indeed in place) would preclude the creation of new aliens, too. I still feel like that was one of the main draws of WEG's Star Wars - the newness of it all.

Still, the inclusion of the Starkiller stuff in AoR (considering its been deemed non-canon by LFL) leads me to suspect that FFG can do what they want with anything that's come out thus far, with the caveat that LFL may at any time, of course, overwrite it.

For all we know, AoR was finalized well before Leland Chee tweeted about TFU being non-canon, and almost certainly before the Legends announcement.

I'm just going to say that I'd like to see Gungans made available. I didn't like Jar-Jar, but I don't judge the whole species by his idiocy.

I'm just going to say that I'd like to see Gungans made available. I didn't like Jar-Jar, but I don't judge the whole species by his idiocy.

I agree. I like water breathing races.

I doubt anyone is exclusively playing one system over the other.

I believe the reason they say "separate but compatible" is for bookkeeping reasons.

If you separate 2 product lines, maybe they can claim them as different product lines when it comes to taxes or shareholder reports. So that if one flops it doesn't drag the other down.

I believe that is why Privateer Press keeps Warmachine and Hordes separate even though they're really the same game.

As for why they duplicated the Gran, it might be because some people may indeed not buy all the source books for the other game.

How many species left are there that could be presented, anyone counted? We've got A CRB to go, 15 splatbooks, probably another regional sourcebook or two, so that's maybe 17 or 18 more books with at least 2 new species each, more in the CRB, so probably 40ish they need to keep introducing new a pair at least in each book. Are there that many left?

The last ultimate alien anthology from the D20R star wars game system (2 back) had 180 species in it. The majority of them are in the movies and thus official canon. Taking into account EU content that won't be kept it's still around 150 species. I'm assuming they are going to keep some of the more popular ones, like verpine and squibs.

I'm gonna break it out more when it isn't 0400... so maybe later tonight, I'll get you a more accurate count.

They made it clear that most of the AOR stuff will be recycled, so we will certainly see Ithorians, Sullustans and Mon Cal eventually, along with many of the AoR classes. So for better or for worse, get used to it.

I'd just prefer to see a mix of humanoid ones and bug-eyed monsters. They've been overdosing on the freakish ones lately. I can only assume they are holding back Zabrak, Togruta, Kiffar etc for F&D.

Okay. So as far as Star Wars Legends EU goes, there are, give or take, around 1,400 different alien species that have been named thus far. It is virtually impossible for FFG to create stats for them all. It would probably take about 4 different books that ONLY covered alien species. So this idea of eventually getting to all of them, as fans, we might have to let that go, certainly for the basic line and for the next few years.

Sam Stewart has said, in a number of interviews, that for the three lines (Edge, Age, and Destiny), that the core books, as well as all the planned class and location books (which generally feature 3 species each, as we've seen) have all had their species selected up front. This was done so that, as has been stated earlier, there are some recognizable species that are central to the Star Wars experience for all fans in every book, and they don't end up front loading all the coolest or most interesting ones. They are trying to play the long game here with the line, and ensure it has a long and healthy life.

If you do the math (8 species x 3 CRBs, and 3 species x 18 assumed class books, and lets take a totally wild guess and say 3 species x 9 location books) you end up with about 105 slots slots to cover species with. So 105 slots, to cover the best, most recognizable, most pertinent/appropriate, of 1,400. That is what FFG has to work with.

I can understand some frustration with repeated species, especially given the limited slots. FFG has given their reasoning behind that, and it makes a certain amount of sense. There is something I'd like to add to this though. The species are repeated, but they aren't reprinted; there is a fine distinction. The write-ups are done anew. This means that, for the major species, writers have an opportunity to try and tackle an already covered species from a new angle, slanting the focus toward the members of that species more associated with the Edge of the Empire, the Rebellion, or the Force. In a way, providing these more prominent species with additional coverage makes sense, in that it let's players get a more specific sense of how their species fits into that specific sort of setting. I can't vouch that all writers covering a repeated species look at it in that way, but I know that is how I try and look at it.

One final point I'd like to make. As a guy who comes from the fan supplement community, I can tell you there are a lot of options for fan-created species that cover the more obscure and EU-centric species out there, that are going to play and balance just fine with the rest. Also, statting a new species for FFG Star Wars is not that complicated. Below, I have included some very simple guidelines. I know "do it yourself" isn't exactly the best thing to hear, but this is the tabletop community! I know having the official stats is always best, but as a last resort (because FFG probably isn't going to get around to statting Hoojib or Lepi within the next few weeks) it might be best to just build your own for now.

Rule 1: Give a point, take a point: If you give a species a +1 to an attribute, you have to take one away from another attribute. This prevents any one species from becoming overpowered. Likewise, if you give +2 to a single attribute, make sure you take 2 away from another (as point buy costs don't make taking 1 away from two separate stats quite equal). If you can't quite follow this rule, make sure you reward or penalize as appropriate with starting XP. Generally speaking, you should be able to cover the base for most aliens with a single stat swap (one up, one down). Move to two stats, or +2 -2 to a stat, only when absolutely necessary.

Rule 2: Talents and XP: Start with about 120 XP. For each automatic skill you give a species, or for each free talent, subtract the appropriate XP. If you create a new ability, find a talent that is similar, or a talent that is similar in power, and look at it's XP cost (take into account how hard it is to get to a given talent, it's total cost). Subtract what you and your GM feel is the appropriate amount of XP from starting XP. Give every species at least 2 abilities. Resist giving more as much as absolutely possible, unless totally necessary.

Follow those two guidelines after a read-through on the species entry page on wookieepedia, and you should be creating well-balanced species of your own for use with Edge or Age, until FFG finally gets around to that particular species. Besides, when I used to have an official version come out of something I had already written up and statted as a fan, it was always informative and interesting to see how the two compared.

Great thoughts all around. I also agree about getting some of the 'prettier'/more humanlike species in there; it's not just an aesthetic issue... it's that, from a roleplaying standpoint, it can be pretty daunting to step into the role of a giant crayfish, or something.

I confess I'd never heard any of those interviews where Sam Stewart says the species for all three lines have already been mapped out (I truly do never listen to the Order 66 podcast!), so I guess we'll just have to ride along and see what's what.

That said, I didn't realize that repeated species were getting new writeups. When people have said things like, "X% of AoR is cut-and-pasted from EotE," I assumed that included species, and so I didn't even read the Bothan, Droid, Human, or Duro writeups.

I'm gonna have to do that, because I really like the idea of getting more 'meat' for a repeated species - particularly as regards the thematic slant of the book they're appearing in. That's stuff you can use even if you've already been playing that particular species for a year.

Awesome.

Good insight, Keith. I also never realized the fluff wasn't re-written.

I noticed the fluff re-write in the Bothan write-ups between the core books. In AoR it doesn't make mention of their reluctance to get into combat nor the cultures outlook on doing so means you're a failure. I was interested in how they were going to address this given AoR is a much more combat focused setting, and they opted for bothans over wookies. The write-ups give validation to the species being in the particular settings.

I. J. The reasons they originally set out with three settings is because of power levels. That was an issue that has plagued star wars rpgs from the get go, but was made very apparent in the WotC versions. The jedi simply outdistanced the other classes. As an example, I had a group that contained a career pilot - and the jedi (because he could add his force to his piloting rolls (or any skill rolls for that matter), was a better pilot (bonus wise), and he didn't even try for it. I'm not talking about a point or two better either, he was vastly superior to the dude that had been piloting all his life. So, FFG set out to split them, same as they did with the warhammer line- "get your space marines out of my peanut butter" kinda thing. The differences between AoR and EtoE are less apparent, but mostly lie in the emphasis on combat. AoR assumes you're going to be seeing plenty of it, thus all the classes are geared to have some type of combat skill. Where as EtoE has classes like the doc, scout, and scholar, who don't have any combat skills. That's the whole reason AoR placed the recruit talent tree in there, so the non-combat classes could get access to combat skills.

Roll players tend to be a younger crowd, many being in high school, college, or just starting career wise they have limited finances for buying all three product lines. In my personal experience, I have a total of 13 players, other then myself, there is 1 other guy who is trying to keep up all the books. The other 12 have one copy of either EtoE or AoR core, with little to no intention of getting the other. Thus the reprinting of species are understandable, as wookies should play a role in the combat forces of AoR.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't have placed the wookies in EtoE myself, despite chewie, as the trando fills that same roll, nicely. If I really needed a big hairy type I would have used whipheads. That would have erased the necessity of reprinting the wookie species, as I really think they belong in AoR more then EtoE. I wouldn't have reprinted droids at all, nor would I have made them a core book species. I would have placed bith, gotel, zabrak, or nikto in their place. Droids are just too small a market, and I hear too many GMs that just don't allow them.

If you look, the careers are pretty much rehashes also... but they are placed differently.. like the medic stemming from the soldier tree, in AoR. I have a feeling that each career is capable of housing each "roll", kinda like getting the "law man" into the politico books, for a combative branch. Looking at AoR, I'd be pretty upset if the soldier trees didn't eventually see basic solider (mercenary), heavy gunner, etc... they are the very embodiment of soldiering. I would expect to see sniper appearing in EtoE at some point too. Actually, i would have used that instead of driver in the explorer book

That's what I mean when I say bleed over, not that you're going to get the exact same thing, just something exceptionally similar. The rules are pretty much word for word, except worded to apply to AoR. So basically the AoR rules are EtoE's with errata added in.

As to species, they are broken up into several books because species sell books. To a lesser extent star ships do as well. Rodney Thompson (WotC, developer for SAGA system) addressed that, saying as much. Basically WotC noticed that during the two D20 versions the alien anthologies was the highest selling books next to the core, and they outpaced the other books (settings, adventure modules, etc..) by a wide margin. So when they made SAGA they opted to spread the species out between the books that traditionally wouldn't sell as well, and it worked. Granted, in SAGA the species per book were greater in number, but there were less books in total. The number of books FFG has planned; each career x 3 core books, etc.. they have a lot in the pipeline and thus are able to spread the species out more. So that's blow over from WotC.

I personally, fed right into that, as I own the legacy era, and knights of the old republic campaign guides (SAGA), only because they have species in them. I have never used them for a single other thing, as I don't run/play in those eras.

EU: I don't see FFG having a lot of EU stuff, because Disney is putting the clamps on a lot of it. If it sees print at this point, it's considered canon. There are very few exceptions that I see coming through, like the chiss, verpine, squibs, and maybe lepi, only because they left such a foot print. I don't see the vong coming/staying, I don't see the norghi (sp) staying unless they origin them another way.

It's just my .02...

The Company Line is, of course, "these are separate -but compatible- game lines!". I get that. I even like it. Three giant core books look pretty on my shelf. But is any of us really only buying into just one line? Really? If so, why are there no threads on the AoR boards asking, "why won't this game let me play a Wookiee?"

Right now, I actually am only buying the Edge line. I'm on a bit of a budget, and as awesome as AoR looks, right now for my game the Edge supplements get more bang for their buck. I'm super thrilled that I'll be getting the Gran now, along with a bunch of specializations, gear, and adventure hooks that directly apply to my group. I will end up getting AoR, but right now it would mostly be just another large book sitting on a shelf.

And this is pure speculation on my part, but I would think that the people who DO only get one line are probably not heavy posters, either.

So yes, we exist.

I am the designated "EotE" guy. My brother will take on "AoR" duties, most likely.

Case in point: here come the Gran again!

To me, they'll always be those stupid guys trying to punch me in Jedi Outcast.

AFAICT, they're just including whatever species most appropriately support the overall content of the book. I wouldn't want them to do it any other way. (e.g.: even though they've included Droid in both core books so far, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see them leave it out of F&D with its greater emphasis on the Force than in those books.)