Dark vengeance box set $70

Two armies (not just 4 models)

So beyond the disagreement between what a player Wants or Needs, how would you have it? Would each ship come with a copy of every upgrade for each slot, or would you include a copy of each new upgrade with every ship from that wave? Something like that would raise the cost of expansions exponentaly with each wave. I'd like print on demand card packs like they made for Edge of the Empire, but I don't know if ffg would be able to generate the nessesary profits to keep x-wing going and developing long term using that model. So whats the alternative?

Two armies (not just 4 models)

2 armies that aren't even legal for tournament play, and are much lower quality and with no options for any real customization. Vs $70 for HSF which is legal and 4 Tie Fighters. Yeah I can see how that's such a great value there, and how FFG is gouging us.

I don't need two codex if I want to use a unit twice.

No but you do need to buy the models needed to use the unit twice, just like you do in X-Wing. Only in X-Wing you don't need to buy a book in addition to those models.

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

You never thought that the big pile of ship numbers or lock on tokens were not a bit of a waste?

If you really think you don't have to buy stuff you don't want ask all the B wing pilots that have 3 shuttles.

I know what you are trying to say, but I think you could have chosen your words better. I'm a B-Wing fan, always have been, always will be. I have 3 of them now, I'll have 5 soon. I've flown BBB, and I've done it without 3 shuttles. I've considered buying a 3rd shuttle, but decided against it. I WANTED a 3rd advance sensors for a long time (before Wave 4), but I didn't buy that 3rd shuttle because I was never "Forced".

And if I had bought a 3rd shuttle? It would have been because I wanted to. Nobody forces anyone. You only buy what you WANT to buy.

If you want three Adv Sensors you HAVE to buy three shuttles (before E Wing) if you don't want shuttles it is a waste

Then don't play

If you are that bothered by it that's a simple solution

Whining about it isn't going to change.

Pull your head out of your exhaust and read my comment's

No one is whining we are simply saying that FFG are as cynical as GW with there pricing. Grow up and stop flaming

All I'm hearing is " I shouldn't have to buy 3 shuttles to get advanced sensors "

That's how it is.

Too bad so sad. Nothing you do or say is going to change.

I don't see the need to go on about it for what 2-3 pages.

Sorry but some of the comments a page or so back sounds like whining.

The solution is real simple.

Just simply stop playing.

Imo the cost isn't that bad. If I want to use something, I borrow what I need. If not then I make due,or buy what I need.

I don't go on and on about it.

FFG is a business. I think compared to many others they do a good job. You want them to cater to you and a few others that may agree with you?

Sorry but not going to happen.

If you want 3 advanced sensors but at the time didn't want to buy three shuttles. Then that would have been a good time to decide to stop playing.

It's just that simple

Your paying for the rulebook with Every model, GW do skirmish tournaments as well.

Your paying for the rulebook with Every model

Really? Exactly which rule book comes with these models? I've never seen one. There are rule cards that come with some ships, which cost nothing extra. There's additional rules and missions that come with some ships, which again cost nothing extra.

There's tokens and pilot cards which you need...

So exactly how are these things the same as the $70 rule book, and $50 codex you need to play 40k, again which is extra from all the models you have to buy.

You have stopped making any sort of sense about 4 posts back either you can't make a rational argument are or are just spewing nonsense to keep this going.

Yeah I dont think I've ever needed an actual rule book during a game of X-Wing. And I'm glad I'm out of the 'lug 2 tonnes of books around for one army' game...

I think this dead horse has been beat enough and then some.

GW rulebook / Codex comes with all add ons you don't need individual cards for add ons and I don't need if I buy the optional magic cards you don't need to have them you can use the book. XWing is tiny scale (which is ok) but GW has equivalents.

XWing will often force you to buy packs you may not just because you may NEED the card as part of the rules.

No one can say $15 is cheap for a tiny model.

Do we pay it? Yes because we enjoy it but don't call this a value game

Calm down guys, no need to get personal.

Personally I agree that it would be nice if you could get new cards without buying new models. I'm not saying FFG are being especially bad by not offering it, but it would be nice.

I'm no expert (I only play Warhammer FB and not competitively), but I gather the concern people have with Gamesworkshop is that they repeatedly release new copies of the rules and army books and power creep means players who care more about winning than having a cool army then have to spend loads of money to have the best army again. FFG don't do that.

Personally I'd love it if Warhammer had one core rule book that never changed, and they kept releasing new units which came with new equipment, spells, etc, and all required army rules, just like Xwing.

Do we pay it? Yes because we enjoy it but don't call this a value game

Value for the game should be based on total gameplay, not per-model cost.

Your comparisons are also disingenuous to the point of dishonesty. Can you theoretically play 40K with nothing but a $110 Dark Vengeance set? Possibly. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that, though. More realistically it's $85 for the core rulebook and $200 for an "Attack Force". I have no idea what's actually in an attack force, and how much of a real army it is, but $300 worth of X-wing covers your two starter sets and about 15 ships. That's enough to build a truly completionist set for one faction, or a solid playset for both. Compared to the bare minimum starter point. Oh, and that's ready to play - good luck walking into a 40K event before you spend another nice splash of money on paints and other modeling supplies.

Are there reasons to dislike the way FFG packages X-wing? Yes. I don't think anyone questions that they intentionally include certain cards with certain ships in order to drive sales of the ship. But that doesn't change the overall value of the game as a whole.

And please, for the love of the Force, STOP trying to compare it to GW. There is no comparison in this universe or any other that makes GW a better deal, or a better company, than what FFG has done with X-wing. Even suggesting it does nothing but make you look like a loon.

And please, for the love of the Force, STOP trying to compare it to GW. There is no comparison in this universe or any other that makes GW a better deal, or a better company, than what FFG has done with X-wing. Even suggesting it does nothing but make you look like a loon.

This, times about a million.

Jim

GW rulebook / Codex comes with all add ons you don't need individual cards for add ons and I don't need if I buy the optional magic cards you don't need to have them you can use the book. XWing is tiny scale (which is ok) but GW has equivalents.

XWing will often force you to buy packs you may not just because you may NEED the card as part of the rules.

No one can say $15 is cheap for a tiny model.

Do we pay it? Yes because we enjoy it but don't call this a value game

Wow...

You are getting everything you need plus the ship for a whole great big $15! That is $5 for the ship with it's base. $5 for all of the excellent full color cards and tokens. And the last $5 covers the packaging and the rest of the printed materials and the plastic maneuver pin.

Last time I checked you get one and a half space marines for $10 with none of the rules or anything else... I am thinking you know nothing at all bout FFG as a company either since you are trying to make them seem like they are the same as GW. Nothing is farther from reality.

There is nothing over priced in X-Wing.

XWing will often force you to buy packs you may not just because you may NEED the card as part of the rules.

I think this is the crux of the issue. You, and some other players, see these cards as a fundamental part of the rule system that is nessessary to have the complete game, so you "need" them. The rest of us see them as options that we may or may not "want" for our squads, which are used in addition to the comlpete game system in the core kit. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't feel the same, and I certainly don't think Xwing ever forced me to do anything. I once had a kid stick a gun to stomach and force me to give him my wallet, phone, and keys, but I don't recall anyone from FFG doing anything like that.

Do we pay it? Yes because we enjoy it but don't call this a value game

Value for the game should be based on total gameplay, not per-model cost.

Your comparisons are also disingenuous to the point of dishonesty. Can you theoretically play 40K with nothing but a $110 Dark Vengeance set? Possibly. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that, though. More realistically it's $85 for the core rulebook and $200 for an "Attack Force". I have no idea what's actually in an attack force, and how much of a real army it is, but $300 worth of X-wing covers your two starter sets and about 15 ships. That's enough to build a truly completionist set for one faction, or a solid playset for both. Compared to the bare minimum starter point. Oh, and that's ready to play - good luck walking into a 40K event before you spend another nice splash of money on paints and other modeling supplies.

Are there reasons to dislike the way FFG packages X-wing? Yes. I don't think anyone questions that they intentionally include certain cards with certain ships in order to drive sales of the ship. But that doesn't change the overall value of the game as a whole.

And please, for the love of the Force, STOP trying to compare it to GW. There is no comparison in this universe or any other that makes GW a better deal, or a better company, than what FFG has done with X-wing. Even suggesting it does nothing but make you look like a loon.

The fact that he makes no sense and his comparison is irrelevant.

I've never purchased x-wing ships for certain cards... I purchase them because I'm obsessive apparently, at least judging by my current fleet.

Thank god I never got into 40k....

I have both sides on this. I have played 40k and FB for years and years and I can tell you that x-wing is way easier to get into.

40k or FB need a good few hundred to be any good. X-wing is way easier to start up. Per model x-wing Is more expensive yes but I don't need to buy a new codex every two years and I don't need a new rulebook every 3 ( 2 years for 7th ). I could never buy another model and still have fun with this game. I haven't played GW stuff in a few months because 7th has just been a money grab and Fantasy is hard to get a game at ( plus my local GW manager is a massive t**ser ). I don't have every card I want but I still don't feel like I'm stuffed if i go competitive. My very long 2 cents

You guys talk as if you can find these to purchase already. Is this not in America? Were they released early elsewhere? I wants, just, they aren't on Amazon yet! Not even as "preorders" so I didn't expect to see them any tim esoon.

I can't think of anything aside from pilots I've bought an expansion for... (I bought a second Imperial Aces for more RGPs, and a second HWK so I can have Jan and Kyle in a game, list quality be damned)

I personally feel that the game is a great value. With accessories, pieces, and pimping I'ma t about 900 bucks spent. That means I have shiny templates, enough pieces to do a team epic game out of my own stuff, and carrying cases for said pieces. That is not something I can replicate in 40K, FB, or Warmahordes.

I think this is the crux of the issue. You, and some other players, see these cards as a fundamental part of the rule system that is nessessary to have the complete game, so you "need" them. The rest of us see them as options that we may or may not "want" for our squads, which are used in addition to the comlpete game system in the core kit.

I do wish we could stop with this whole want/need split. It's a rather pedantic response that doesn't actually help anything. Can we maybe just accept what I think is obvious, that when someone says "need" they mean "need to play the game the way I want"?

If you want to fly a 4 B-wing+Advanced Sensors list, you need to buy 4 Lambdas. You say you "see them as options that we may or may not want for our squads", but if you want that squad, you need to buy Lambdas to get them.

The people who say need are talking about what the have to do to get what they want. Telling them they only want it doesn't help.

Now with that said, can we all agree that a company forcing you to buy something you don't want in order to get what you do is, at the very least, unfriendly to its customers? FFG was rather universally lauded by players for moving away from the CCG model for this very reason.

FFG intentionally packages low cost, high value items (cards) with low value, high cost items (ships) in order to let the high value of the upgrades drive the sales of the high cost items. It's probably a reasonable model given the quality of the ships, and helps keep the overall price down. But there's nothing the least bit consumer-friendly about it, and lecturing someone about the different between *want* and *need* like a pretentious grade school teacher accomplishes nothing. And occasionally leads to very silly threads like this.

I can't think of anything aside from pilots I've bought an expansion for... (I bought a second Imperial Aces for more RGPs, and a second HWK so I can have Jan and Kyle in a game, list quality be damned)

The list is short, but I think it has as much to do with the generally useless quality of most upgrades Honestly, that makes the money-grabbing ones painfully obvious. Consider:

Stealth Device: Underwhelming live deployment but insane prerelease excitement, Firespray only.

Engine Upgrade: Falcon only.

Push the Limit: A-wing only (until recently)

Advanced Sensors: Obviously spectacular for a B-wing, Lambda only. Again, until recently.

Others will be personal. R2 Astromech only coming in the Y-wing is a biggie for me. Squad Leader only in the Advanced. Almost as important are the cases where a ship obviously excels with an upgrade, but it's not packaged with it. Interceptors and Push the Limit, and the B-wing with Advanced Sensors are the poster children here.

And it's gotten worse with the huge ships. The X-wing in the transport has a number of very strong pilots. C-3PO made the amusing list of "Overpowered upgrades that need errata" that someone started.

Again, comparing X-wing to an insane money pit like 40K is just stupid beyond definition... but there is a very real bit of manipulation going on here. Whether it's tolerable or not is (or would be, if we weren't on the internet) a personal choice. But I think it's very hard to look at what they do objectively and say it's not manipulative on FFG's part.

Games Workshop has been around for over 30 years, selling the same product line.

FFG has been around for less than half that, and has only been into the tabletop wargames market for a few years, if you count Dust Tactics. X-Wing is brand-spanking new.

People do not hate Games Workshop's policies because it encourages players to buy models, it is the culmination of over a decade's worth of predatory and otherwise unscrupulous practices. You can't just boil it down to "Well, GW has high prices". They've consistently shown that they have no concern for their customers, at all. They have a history of it. I used to be employed by GW, and you really don't know the character of the business until you see an employee convince an 80 year old grandmother to buy her grandson a $150 Collector's Edition paint set (With 8 colors and a bolter shell replica, wow!) by emphatically explaining how her son "needs it" to paint the starter set he just bought.

FFG hasn't been around long enough to actually judge their practices. You can't compare their practices in X-Wing, which has been around for close to two years, with all the history of GW. We'll just have to wait and see. They do seem to be working towards the right direction, though. Just small things like including harder to get upgrades in newer, cheaper ship, like Advanced Sensors and Push the Limit, show that they have at least some regard for their customer.

I'd like to make a few points here that I hope aren't overstepping the mark. Firstly, alot of you are complaining about cost. In $. I'd like you to look at what things like X-wing cost in places like the UK, and see that you're potentially getting a better deal than others.

Secondly, it's really difficult to compare models from GW to X-wing. After i've bought the x-wing starter set (for £20, which is absolutely reasonable) all I need know are the other ships I want to play (at around £10-13 per small ship). What I don't need to buy is an army book which nowadays is around £25-30, Models at around £20 per box, Glue, Clippers, and paint. You can argue the last one, but if you're talking tournaments, then they need to have some paint job on them to be acceptable. Now, the comparable cost per model has shot up.

You can play casually, or you can play competitively. If you choose the later, like any competition you need to be at your prime. Look at any sport; football, F1 or even cycling. You can't be at the top of the game without significant investment. Its really terrible but the way or the world and you can't blame FFG for modelling the tournament side around this kind of investment. If you play casually, then you buy what you wish, not what you 'need'.

I hope I don't come off as brash (and i apologize if i do), im hoping I just highlight some points that maybe help to show that despite some 'card' issues that people have, X-wing is actually pretty reasonable all things considered.

They do seem to be working towards the right direction, though. Just small things like including harder to get upgrades in newer, cheaper ship, like Advanced Sensors and Push the Limit, show that they have at least some regard for their customer.

This depends on how cynical you are.

Good interpretation: People really like Advanced Sensors and are unhappy about having to buy extra Lambdas to get them, let's put it in the E-wing to make it easier for people to get!

Cynical interpretation: People have probably bought all the spare Lambdas they're going to by now, if we include Advanced Sensors in the E-wing we'll sell more shiny new E-wings!

I'm not necessarily coming down on one side or the other of that... but I will point out that the Phantom was likely the more exciting ship because of the cloak, AND the one that could make better use of Advanced Sensors. So naturally the Advanced Sensors ended up in the E-wing...

<shrug> Okay, fine, I'm cynical. Sue me

Maybe a bit to cynical as it is more likely they wanted to put it in with a Rebel product since it was only available in an Imperial one. Same with Push.