Hob,

There is a world of difference between tournament legal and tournament competitive, Magic tournament legal could be a $10 starter deck but no one would call it competitive. GW is a higher buy in cost but the difference between legal and competitive is a lot smaller (army dependant) Xwing is somewhere inbetween

Not at all.... You can have a competitive list in this game for less than $130 easily even buying at MSRP, and probably even $100 if you so desired. That is incredibly cheap for a minis game. If you think $130 USD is a lot to spend to be competitive, at ANY game, you have a distorted sense of what expensive is. If you buy from discounted places (like MM and the like) I think you can pretty easily be competitive at around $80.

The world winning "biggs walks dogs" list was $145 retail, heck its cheaper now (115) that adv sen comes in a 15 ship and not just a 30.

Hida you are totally wrong with your assumptions and Coma just lassie slapped your comment out of the park.

C3PO and Han could be all the difference on a particular build between winning and losing. There are cards that only rebs can use but there are others that force you to buy ships you don't want and aren't even on your side because you need the card you need as Rob says to buy everything.

The opposite is also true what do you really need from a pack often just the model a dial and one of the pilot cards. Every ship comes with unique pilots you can't fly more than once this is a waste FFG are charging you for, the same is true of many of the token you get with every pack, how many shield tokens do you need?

individual lists will be meta'd out over time so you will need to buy more stuff

Finally Xwing is played at what would be the equiv of a kill team size game of Warhammer/Warhammer 40k and you get two armies in the boxed set for £60 that's the same price of two core sets xWing which only contains 2 X wings and 4 Tie fighters (not enough for a 100 pt tournament legal game never mind competitive)

but that's ok we all know what it is but you're comparing micro machines to real cars for price

No one is whining, we are just comparing the price and the naughty way GW and FFG get money off us

Just a different model

Hida you are totally wrong with your assumptions and Coma just lassie slapped your comment out of the park.

C3PO and Han could be all the difference on a particular build between winning and losing. There are cards that only rebs can use but there are others that force you to buy ships you don't want and aren't even on your side because you need the card you need as Rob says to buy everything.

The opposite is also true what do you really need from a pack often just the model a dial and one of the pilot cards. Every ship comes with unique pilots you can't fly more than once this is a waste FFG are charging you for, the same is true of many of the token you get with every pack, how many shield tokens do you need?

individual lists will be meta'd out over time so you will need to buy more stuff

Finally Xwing is played at what would be the equiv of a kill team size game of Warhammer/Warhammer 40k and you get two armies in the boxed set for £60 that's the same price of two core sets xWing which only contains 2 X wings and 4 Tie fighters (not enough for a 100 pt tournament legal game never mind competitive)

but that's ok we all know what it is but you're comparing micro machines to real cars for price

And C-3PO seems all the more dubious, if people would only learn to love Outmaneuver...

Far too lazy to actually do this myself.. But does anyone know, roughly, how many top 5-10 lists in regionals were lists that ONLY included cards from the ships used in said list?

It certainly doesn't prove much, but could at least be an indicator of what lists are winning without having to buy ships just for the cards.

FFG is a business so I don't have much problem with how they do things. My only issue is that I do feel every single upgrade card should be available from more then one expansion. And especially at least 1 ship from each faction.

For example, I hated the idea of having to buy a shuttle just for advanced sensors for those that typically only fly rebel. Thankfully FFG has included it with the Ewing. But all cards should be in at least 2 expansions.

Far too lazy to actually do this myself.. But does anyone know, roughly, how many top 5-10 lists in regionals were lists that ONLY included cards from the ships used in said list?

It certainly doesn't prove much, but could at least be an indicator of what lists are winning without having to buy ships just for the cards.

FFG is a business so I don't have much problem with how they do things. My only issue is that I do feel every single upgrade card should be available from more then one expansion. And especially at least 1 ship from each faction.

For example, I hated the idea of having to buy a shuttle just for advanced sensors for those that typically only fly rebel. Thankfully FFG has included it with the Ewing. But all cards should be in at least 2 expansions.

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

Every company does it their are pro's and cons to every model but thinking FFG are this great company like they are giving away games is wrong they have a model and they use it.

GW has a model and they use it

that's the game

Let's not besmirch ffg by accusing them of gw pricing, bare in mind ffg does not manufacture themselves or own the licence and we don't know how that effects prices.

Selling cards that you need for tournament play in large ships that cost £25 basically for a card put them on par with GW, nothing wrong with that they are a company and they gotta make money!

or the $90 for 1 card in c3p0, yeah **** that

Sigh... I really hate this argument. Okay, so don't buy it. C-3PO and Han (crew) you can easily live without. If you decide to buy it, well then great, you got the cards you wanted, a new way to play the game, AS WELL AS A SWEET MODEL

Seriously, constantly whining about this is just pathetic given how incredibly cheap this game is to play already.

I just want to add that before X-wing came out a model of this caliber would have sold for over 200 dollars.

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

You have a very distorted opinion on what price gouging is...

You pay $15 for a model and you need everything that comes with it. You pay the same price for a 2nd copy and suddenly that $15 is price gouging?

Yeah I don't think anyone can take you seriously with logic like that.

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

You have a very distorted opinion on what price gouging is...

I also think it's a fairly distorted picture of what "forced" is. Since there are only two ships that can even equip Threepio, and there are a large number of competitive lists that don't include those ships at all, and there are also a large number of builds and lists for those ships that don't include Threepio... it's a stretch.

Its for the extra insurance... as you will be ramming more stuff with this ship!

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

Ummm...you do know they HAVE to put those tokens in every ship, right? I mean, because they have no idea what ships people will/won't buy or in what order that every ship needs to have all the tokens required to use it.

That's also interesting that FFG is coming over to your house and putting a gun to your head forcing you to buy their products. They just must not have made their rounds in my neighborhood yet.

If people really think it's price gouging then don't play the game. Save your money and find something else to play.

I've not seen any lists dominant the tournament scene that included Han solo, or 3p0. People do not have an advantage over you if they do have them. I have them and I never used them in the tournament scene.Not yet anyway.

I see no reason to complain about having to buy ships just for cards.

You know what I do for tournament? I borrow from a friend of mine. If I need it.

I didn't run out and buy another shuttle for advanced sensors. I just borrowed.

Surely I'm not alone on that. As I'm sure we all know people who we trust to let them borrow a card or even a ship if they need it.

ffg is a good company. They are out to make money of coarse, but it could always be worse.

If you feel as though your being gouged then just don't play. Otherwise don't complain about it.

Noone holding a gun to your head making you play

and there are also a large number of builds and lists for those ships that don't include Threepio... it's a stretch.

Yeah that's true. I could see for the sake of argument not counting other lists that are competitive, IF you could only play a given list and be competitive with those upgrades. So if the only way to play a HSF type list and win with was with 3-CPO, then perhaps the term forced might actually apply or at least be semi-justified.

But that's not true, so there is no amount of being forced to buy anything, other then the ships you want. Same goes for B-Wings, yes they're great with AdvSen but you can in fact play and win without that upgrade.

Does anyone else think it kind of sucks that they make it so you want to be close range/touching with this thing a lot, but its so big you really wont be able to have it on the stand much once it is close to any other ships? It is bigger than the falcon by a good bit, and even that one is a pain a lot of the time.

Ummm...you do know they HAVE to put those tokens in every ship, right?

Right now you pay $15 for everything you may need to play with that ship. Or FFG could of done something like this...

Pay $15 for the model, then pay $5 for the Y-Wing card and token pack, because those things don't come with that model. Oh and you may need to buy 2 or even 3 card packs per ship type to get everything you need.

That would make 4 Y-Wings cost $15-20 more then they do now.

Anyone who things the price of a ship would come down meaningfully because the cards and tokens weren't included are frankly kidding themselves. The cost to produce those things is going to be about a buck or so. But if they sold them separately, you'd have to pay for packaging and all the rest.

Hida you are totally wrong with your assumptions and Coma just lassie slapped your comment out of the park.

C3PO and Han could be all the difference on a particular build between winning and losing. There are cards that only rebs can use but there are others that force you to buy ships you don't want and aren't even on your side because you need the card you need as Rob says to buy everything.

The opposite is also true what do you really need from a pack often just the model a dial and one of the pilot cards. Every ship comes with unique pilots you can't fly more than once this is a waste FFG are charging you for, the same is true of many of the token you get with every pack, how many shield tokens do you need?

individual lists will be meta'd out over time so you will need to buy more stuff

Finally Xwing is played at what would be the equiv of a kill team size game of Warhammer/Warhammer 40k and you get two armies in the boxed set for £60 that's the same price of two core sets xWing which only contains 2 X wings and 4 Tie fighters (not enough for a 100 pt tournament legal game never mind competitive)

but that's ok we all know what it is but you're comparing micro machines to real cars for price

I'm not sure that saying a single list that was a whole $15 over what I said is "lassie-slapping" me but alright.

The point is that you can play this game competitively very, very cheaply initially and build up over time. Which is true. If you think you need Han and 3PO to win, then the problem is not FFG, money, or even the cards. It's your mindset.

I like how you conveniently forget that Warhammer/Warmachine require a rulebook, faction book, glue paint, modeling supplies, time/effort, etc., etc. when pricing out the cost. When I first started trying out 40k several years ago, I walked out in over $100 worth of stuff that wasn't even the models I needed to play with. Same for Warmachine.

I don't get your last comment. If you are talking about X-Wing as micro-machines, my counterpoint is micro-machines are much much cheaper than "real cars", invalidating your argument.

but its so big you really wont be able to have it on the stand much once it is close to any other ships?

That's not really a problem. Add or remove a peg and it should be fine. That's what people who fly dual YT lists do.

I wonder if it's got a little to do with the GW model of prices based on in game cost, high points value means less sold so higher price.

Not all all, contrast E-wing and Z-95. The Decimator costs more because the model's so big they had to enlarge the box to fit it in. No other reason.

Does anyone else think it kind of sucks that they make it so you want to be close range/touching with this thing a lot, but its so big you really wont be able to have it on the stand much once it is close to any other ships? It is bigger than the falcon by a good bit, and even that one is a pain a lot of the time.

I don't plan to ever fly the Decimator with less than three pegs

People seem totally hysterical here. the comparison was made to GW and I made the point that for less money you can play a much bigger and more varied game for the same money. 40 unpainted models for the same price you could buy 6 with Xwing.

If you really think you don't have to buy stuff you don't want ask all the B wing pilots that have 3 shuttles.

Think about all the comments don't just take the silly example mentioned one

Does anyone else think it kind of sucks that they make it so you want to be close range/touching with this thing a lot, but its so big you really wont be able to have it on the stand much once it is close to any other ships? It is bigger than the falcon by a good bit, and even that one is a pain a lot of the time.

Use the base and stand from a huge ship. You'll tower over lesser ships.

People seem totally hysterical here. the comparison was made to GW and I made the point that for less money you can play a much bigger and more varied game for the same money. 40 unpainted models for the same price you could buy 6 with Xwing.

If you really think you don't have to buy stuff you don't want ask all the B wing pilots that have 3 shuttles.

Think about all the comments don't just take the silly example mentioned one

That would be a good point if flying B-wings was the only way to be "competitive" in a tournament. What I think you're saying is "to fly a full choice of squads you have to buy everything". Well, yeah.

B wings were the only way of flying competitive for a long time.

All I am trying to say is FFG are the same as GW when it comes to making cash they have schemes and that's what you expect.