They do seem to be working towards the right direction, though. Just small things like including harder to get upgrades in newer, cheaper ship, like Advanced Sensors and Push the Limit, show that they have at least some regard for their customer.

This depends on how cynical you are.

Good interpretation: People really like Advanced Sensors and are unhappy about having to buy extra Lambdas to get them, let's put it in the E-wing to make it easier for people to get!

Cynical interpretation: People have probably bought all the spare Lambdas they're going to by now, if we include Advanced Sensors in the E-wing we'll sell more shiny new E-wings!

I'm not necessarily coming down on one side or the other of that... but I will point out that the Phantom was likely the more exciting ship because of the cloak, AND the one that could make better use of Advanced Sensors. So naturally the Advanced Sensors ended up in the E-wing...

<shrug> Okay, fine, I'm cynical. Sue me

You can definitely interperet it like that, but it would be all-around worse if they just didn't include the card in new sets at all. I'd only have 1 Advanced Sensors if the E-Wing didn't come with one. Now I have two, and couldn't imagine needing more in my lists. They could have designed new upgrades to put in new nets instead of popular reprints, too, but that might have pushed back the release date. Or not. Regardless, people would still "need" 3 Lambda's if they wanted 3 Advanced Sensors.

FFG seems to portion things based on the idea that everyone is buying 2 of each small ship and 1 of each large ship and 'deluxe expansion'. I think that's not a horrible expectation.

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

You never thought that the big pile of ship numbers or lock on tokens were not a bit of a waste?

If you really think you don't have to buy stuff you don't want ask all the B wing pilots that have 3 shuttles.

I know what you are trying to say, but I think you could have chosen your words better. I'm a B-Wing fan, always have been, always will be. I have 3 of them now, I'll have 5 soon. I've flown BBB, and I've done it without 3 shuttles. I've considered buying a 3rd shuttle, but decided against it. I WANTED a 3rd advance sensors for a long time (before Wave 4), but I didn't buy that 3rd shuttle because I was never "Forced".

And if I had bought a 3rd shuttle? It would have been because I wanted to. Nobody forces anyone. You only buy what you WANT to buy.

If you want three Adv Sensors you HAVE to buy three shuttles (before E Wing) if you don't want shuttles it is a waste

The simple fact that I did indeed WANT three adv sensors, yet I somehow managed to not purchase a third shuttle disproves your theory. You don't NEED to buy everything that you want.

I think this is the crux of the issue. You, and some other players, see these cards as a fundamental part of the rule system that is nessessary to have the complete game, so you "need" them. The rest of us see them as options that we may or may not "want" for our squads, which are used in addition to the comlpete game system in the core kit.

I do wish we could stop with this whole want/need split. It's a rather pedantic response that doesn't actually help anything. Can we maybe just accept what I think is obvious, that when someone says "need" they mean "need to play the game the way I want"?

If you want to fly a 4 B-wing+Advanced Sensors list, you need to buy 4 Lambdas. You say you "see them as options that we may or may not want for our squads", but if you want that squad, you need to buy Lambdas to get them.

The people who say need are talking about what the have to do to get what they want. Telling them they only want it doesn't help.

Now with that said, can we all agree that a company forcing you to buy something you don't want in order to get what you do is, at the very least, unfriendly to its customers? FFG was rather universally lauded by players for moving away from the CCG model for this very reason.

FFG intentionally packages low cost, high value items (cards) with low value, high cost items (ships) in order to let the high value of the upgrades drive the sales of the high cost items. It's probably a reasonable model given the quality of the ships, and helps keep the overall price down. But there's nothing the least bit consumer-friendly about it, and lecturing someone about the different between *want* and *need* like a pretentious grade school teacher accomplishes nothing. And occasionally leads to very silly threads like this.

Beyond that this isn't a "Buy one army and play it till the cows come homw kind of game."

Take your Push the Limit example. They didn't design the A-Wing to suck, and then put Push the Limit in. They put Push the Limit in because it is the epitomy of Tycho Celchu.

They don't design certain ships to suck and certain ones to be good. They design ships to be balanced and try to make each pack great. From there certain cards recieve more demandnd certtain ships turn out less good than expected.

If they'd put Predator and not Outmanuever with the E-Wing we'd be sating they held back Ouutmanuever. If they'd put Push the Limit with both the A-Wing and the Interceptor we'd be complaining that we had too many Push thhe limits, and man one of those ships should have come with a different EPT.

I think this is the crux of the issue. You, and some other players, see these cards as a fundamental part of the rule system that is nessessary to have the complete game, so you "need" them. The rest of us see them as options that we may or may not "want" for our squads, which are used in addition to the comlpete game system in the core kit.

I do wish we could stop with this whole want/need split. It's a rather pedantic response that doesn't actually help anything. Can we maybe just accept what I think is obvious, that when someone says "need" they mean "need to play the game the way I want"?

If you want to fly a 4 B-wing+Advanced Sensors list, you need to buy 4 Lambdas. You say you "see them as options that we may or may not want for our squads", but if you want that squad, you need to buy Lambdas to get them.

The people who say need are talking about what the have to do to get what they want. Telling them they only want it doesn't help.

Now with that said, can we all agree that a company forcing you to buy something you don't want in order to get what you do is, at the very least, unfriendly to its customers? FFG was rather universally lauded by players for moving away from the CCG model for this very reason.

FFG intentionally packages low cost, high value items (cards) with low value, high cost items (ships) in order to let the high value of the upgrades drive the sales of the high cost items. It's probably a reasonable model given the quality of the ships, and helps keep the overall price down. But there's nothing the least bit consumer-friendly about it, and lecturing someone about the different between *want* and *need* like a pretentious grade school teacher accomplishes nothing. And occasionally leads to very silly threads like this.

But that's just it. None of that is hostle, unethical, or anything even close to those things. It's good business, and it creates incentive to try diverse builds. Fact is, this is a luxury item. If you want to play the game a certain way it isn't all that costly to buy what you want, but they absolutely are not price gouging Tournament players. Things just occasionally work out to look that way.

Beyond that this isn't a "Buy one army and play it till the cows come homw kind of game."

Take your Push the Limit example. They didn't design the A-Wing to suck, and then put Push the Limit in. They put Push the Limit in because it is the epitomy of Tycho Celchu.

They don't design certain ships to suck and certain ones to be good. They design ships to be balanced and try to make each pack great. From there certain cards recieve more demandnd certtain ships turn out less good than expected.

If they'd put Predator and not Outmanuever with the E-Wing we'd be sating they held back Ouutmanuever. If they'd put Push the Limit with both the A-Wing and the Interceptor we'd be complaining that we had too many Push thhe limits, and man one of those ships should have come with a different EPT.

I think you're right and the b-wing could be another example. I'm not convinced that FFG went let's put AS in the shuttle just to sell more for all those lovely b-wings that everyone likes.

But that's just it. None of that is hostle, unethical, or anything even close to those things. It's good business, and it creates incentive to try diverse builds. Fact is, this is a luxury item. If you want to play the game a certain way it isn't all that costly to buy what you want, but they absolutely are not price gouging Tournament players. Things just occasionally work out to look that way.

Beyond that this isn't a "Buy one army and play it till the cows come homw kind of game."

Take your Push the Limit example. They didn't design the A-Wing to suck, and then put Push the Limit in. They put Push the Limit in because it is the epitomy of Tycho Celchu.

They don't design certain ships to suck and certain ones to be good. They design ships to be balanced and try to make each pack great. From there certain cards recieve more demandnd certtain ships turn out less good than expected.

If they'd put Predator and not Outmanuever with the E-Wing we'd be sating they held back Ouutmanuever. If they'd put Push the Limit with both the A-Wing and the Interceptor we'd be complaining that we had too many Push thhe limits, and man one of those ships should have come with a different EPT.

It should be added that, no designer no mater how experienced, are going to know what their players will use and abuse. They could put a skill or card in that to them great with one ship, but assume it's ok for others and no reason to have it in huge excess. Then they launch, and find out that is "the bomb" card that all ships are apparently getting equipped with. It just happens =/

Now! I was also curious... [and maybe since I quoted someone it'll get notice this time...] These things are already being sold? I can't seem to find them!

Take your Push the Limit example. They didn't design the A-Wing to suck, and then put Push the Limit in. They put Push the Limit in because it is the epitomy of Tycho Celchu.

They don't design certain ships to suck and certain ones to be good. They design ships to be balanced and try to make each pack great. From there certain cards recieve more demandnd certtain ships turn out less good than expected.

If you really believe they just happen to stumble into things like universally-good cards like Stealth Device only being in the Firespray or Push the Limit only being in one specific ship, I think there's a bridge somewhere with your name on it.

Did they intentionally design the A-wing to suck? No. But I think it's fair to say there was considerably more excitement surrounding the Interceptor than the A-wing. And the random Wheel of Upgrades just happened to give the Advanced Sensors to the bigger, more expensive ship? And they were shocked and amazed that the Lambda turned out less popular than the B-wing because they really expected it to fly off the shelves?

<shrug> Not every upgrade and every ship gets the treatment, but the idea that there's no efforts at spreading these things out defies credulity.

Take your Push the Limit example. They didn't design the A-Wing to suck, and then put Push the Limit in. They put Push the Limit in because it is the epitomy of Tycho Celchu.

They don't design certain ships to suck and certain ones to be good. They design ships to be balanced and try to make each pack great. From there certain cards recieve more demandnd certtain ships turn out less good than expected.

If you really believe they just happen to stumble into things like universally-good cards like Stealth Device only being in the Firespray or Push the Limit only being in one specific ship, I think there's a bridge somewhere with your name on it.

Did they intentionally design the A-wing to suck? No. But I think it's fair to say there was considerably more excitement surrounding the Interceptor than the A-wing. And the random Wheel of Upgrades just happened to give the Advanced Sensors to the bigger, more expensive ship? And they were shocked and amazed that the Lambda turned out less popular than the B-wing because they really expected it to fly off the shelves?

<shrug> Not every upgrade and every ship gets the treatment, but the idea that there's no efforts at spreading these things out defies credulity.

I can honestly say that the fact we got two of each Modification with the Wave 2 large ships 100% disproves your cynicism. They could have easily put just one in. But they didn't. There has to be a reason there. And it isn't profiteering.

I do think they spread upgrades around to encourage, and, I'll say, reward folks for buying lots of different expansions. Personally, I'm cool with this. I like having some reason to buy ships I may not otherwise, it has lead me to liking some things I wasn't sure I would. While this system does not function as well if your preference is laser focus, it does work if you like the idea of owning everything and having some extra incentive to do so. I would never have bought pieces to facilitate friends in other minis games, but I originally grabbed B-Wings for partially that reason. If I hadn't also wanted the FCS for my shuttles, I may not have bothered.

I can honestly say that the fact we got two of each Modification with the Wave 2 large ships 100% disproves your cynicism. They could have easily put just one in. But they didn't. There has to be a reason there. And it isn't profiteering.

No, it really doesn't. The fact that they didn't go as far down the line on it as they possibly could does not mean that it wasn't motivated by profit.

If you want to pull out disproving cards, would you care to explain C-3PO? An ability that depends on rolling defense dice that comes in a $90 ship with zero agility. Oh, yes, I'm sure he's in there ENTIRELY because the CR90 can make good use of him as long as its attacker is at Range 3

Want to talk about being forced. Talk about Star Trek Attack Wing. Want to play a Star Trek game with X-wing rules, you are FORCED to buy Star Trek Hero Clix minis. Now that is something forced in what you WANT to play with.

But nobody is FORCED to buy a Lambda shuttle. Please explain this. I read all 7 pages and still don't get how you are forced to buy something you want to do. If you want to do it, then buy it. If you don't want to buy it, don't and play without it. Please for the life of GOD explain how you are being forced to buy the Lambda.

Also curious hot this thread didn't get locked for going off topic. I guess the Mods are eating popcorn and enjoying this.

(I'm gonna comment on-topic now, but it feels like I'm commenting off-topic. Weird)

(edit: LOL, ninja'd)

I never noticed the box size difference before.

The price difference will probably be based on the case price; less models in the case means a higher individual price point so the case can be costed the same.

It's strange though, I can't really see why it has to be that deep...

Ok first off, no one is forced to buy a Lambda, to buy one is every players duty. They are the most fantastic ship ever made, number 1 in comfort, and cost to durability, that still hits like a brick to the head. So there is no need at all to make someone have to buy a shuttle, they should be thankful for the chance to own one. Where is Sable to back me up on this ?

Ok first off, no one is forced to buy a Lambda, to buy one is every players duty. They are the most fantastic ship ever made, number 1 in comfort, and cost to durability, that still hits like a brick to the head. So there is no need at all to make someone have to buy a shuttle, they should be thankful for the chance to own one. Where is Sable to back me up on this ?

I agree. Shuttle is easily my favorite large ship thus far.

Also maybe I'm alone in being glad that 3PO (and the other crew upgrades from the Tantive) come in a ship I'll only ever want one of. It means I won't have extras sitting around.

I've played a lot of table top games, and I've seen this kind of "I'm being forced to buy things to play how I want!" attitude in all of them. It's like people can't help but feel persecuted by gaming companies because they want to make as much money on their niche products as they can. It's one thing to complain about a company that does this and only this (as GW has done for the last decade or so), but it's another to do so when the company is as supportive of their community as a company like Privateer Press or FFG is. And FFG doesn't have to provide the kind of support for the community they do (including this lovely forum on their official website), they don't have to give previews, or host strategy articles that are more than just a glorified catalog entry, but they do. They don't have to do the tournament and game night kits, which are amazing. So yeah, if they want to put a desirable (And it's Unique! You'll never be able to use more than one.), but not vital card in one of their more expensive ships, I'll cut them some slack in repayment for all of the effort they've made in supporting their gaming community.

Especially one that is easily countered by a card released the next month.

being forced to buy something I don't want (even extra tokens I will never use) is price gouging

You, um, aren't? You don't need C-3PO, you don't need two shuttles for an Advanced Sensors pair. You only need this stuff to netdeck. Making your own squads, I bet most people have all the stuff they need right now. It's not like you're missing half the card: there are plenty of other upgrade options.

Paul Heaver's XXBB won because he knew it inside out and because it was off the wall so everyone else didn't know it inside out. Now everyone and their dog's fourth cousin has copied it you find it at all levels of the win rankings: it's not constantly hitting the top because it's some sort of solution to the game, it's from sheer weight of numbers. Same with all the other netdecks: these things work for the champions largely because they're being flown by expert players and they break the metagame's rules a bit. French National was won by Obsidian x4 Academy x4. Never would have called that: TIE swarms need Howlrunner or some sort of dice modifier to be "competitive", right? Clearly not. That TIE swarm broke the rules both in build and likely in playstyle and sailed to victory.

I still don't get people complaining about HAVING to buy large ships, multiples of ships, etc. Having all that stuff lets you play Epic games, which is the most fun way to play this game in my opinion. If you haven't tried an Epic game yet...you really, really should.