So, while I spend a lot of time reading forums, I don't get to play as much as I'd like. I'm working on improving my squad builds. Here's where I'm at, which is probably foolish.

I find that I suck with secondary weapons, probably becuase of inexperience as a player. It seems like 4 points for a one-off is expensive. Am I wrong? Also, I'd rather put ordinance on a smaller ship, like an A-wing. Increasing red dice from 2 to 4 seems like a better choice than from 3 to 4.

I'd rather try to field another ship than field upgrades. As a result, I only use 6-7 points for upgrades. Am I better to leave a ship off, like a z-95 and use those points to reinforce other ships?

Lately, I have been running Chewbacca in the YT and Corran Horn in an E-Wing. I usually upgrade the E-Wing. But only with a few points.

What's your system? Do you pick upgrades first? Establish synergy first? Pick your ships first? What's your logic behind your builds?

It used to be a pretty solid rule that if you wanted a serious competitive list, you minimized the number of upgrades. That's no longer nearly as effective as a guideline, but it is still a good idea to look at each upgrade (including upgrades from generic to named pilots) and think "Okay, am I making this ship more effective, or just running up my opponent's score when he or she kills it?"

With specific attention to missiles and torpedoes, the early releases (e.g., Proton Torpedoes) typically don't earn back their cost. FFG is tightening up the design for these, though, and more recent efforts are much more viable.

I agree with you, i rarely use missiles and torps, really only turrets and cannons for secondary weapons. However, the EPTs are really good, especially Push the Limit. there's really no right answer to your question, just personal preferance.

being fairly new myself, it's an interesting question. from a rebel point of view, unless i'm running a big ship, i look at the upgrades i've taken and think "could i get an extra ship for this". if i can, that's usually my break point.

though it has to be said, i'm far more comfortable flying 4 ships than 3

though it has to be said, i'm far more comfortable flying 4 ships than 3

I would be too, but I freakin love that YT. That limits me to three ships. Plus, my collection is pretty small. And I'm an idiot. I always forget to think in order and run into myself. I can run formations just fine, but when everyone scatters, I screw up. God help me!

I approach list building much the same way I did deck building for MtG.

Look at every card in your list, and ask yourself, what exactly does this card do for me? What's my plan to use it, will something else or in this case spending those points on another ship or upgraded pilot give me a better effect?

As a rule of thumb, you should never add a upgrade without a solid plan on what you will do with it, some way of earning those points back.

I would be too, but I freakin love that YT. That limits me to three ships. Plus, my collection is pretty small.

In that case I'd consider picking up a couple Z-95's. They make good filler, fly a bit like the X-Wing does, and are so cheep that you could easily replace 1 X-Wing with 2 Z-95's in a HSF type list.

For example you could do something like this, it works out to be 100 points even.

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Han Solo (55), Marksmanship (3), Gunner (5), Millennium Falcon (1)

Also Osoling, if you don't get as many games as you'd like you should look at Vassal. Here's a tutorial written by Mu0n, who does most of the work for the X-Wing mod these days.

http://s93768914.onlinehome.us/xwing/

So, while I spend a lot of time reading forums, I don't get to play as much as I'd like. I'm working on improving my squad builds. Here's where I'm at, which is probably foolish.

I find that I suck with secondary weapons, probably becuase of inexperience as a player. It seems like 4 points for a one-off is expensive. Am I wrong? Also, I'd rather put ordinance on a smaller ship, like an A-wing. Increasing red dice from 2 to 4 seems like a better choice than from 3 to 4.

I'd rather try to field another ship than field upgrades. As a result, I only use 6-7 points for upgrades. Am I better to leave a ship off, like a z-95 and use those points to reinforce other ships?

Lately, I have been running Chewbacca in the YT and Corran Horn in an E-Wing. I usually upgrade the E-Wing. But only with a few points.

What's your system? Do you pick upgrades first? Establish synergy first? Pick your ships first? What's your logic behind your builds?

I hear you with the "don't get to play as much as I'd like" scenario matey:-/

And vorpal's spot on with the historical "minimum upgrades" ethos undergoing some change (my initial games all seemed to be swarms with no upgrades vs rebels toting astromechs) but now there are far more "fully loaded" ship lists coming out-especially with the phantoms...

I reckon there is very definitely a balance point where further upgrade benefits get smaller and smaller while making that ships loss more and more critical because of cost.

Personally I'm quite fluid about how I make a list-I usually start out with an idea of the ship types I want to use and upgrade as many of the most pivotal points of the list that I can (this can result in some seriously pimped ships especially if I'm planning on using a lone flanker who won't have the back-up of other nearby ships). I do however have a quick review to see if upgrade spends could be better spent on more/different ships (often this turns out to be the case and I have to regrettably return some upgrades to the box).... :-(

On ordinance upgrades; I agree-they're often prohibitively expensive (less so with the munitions fail safe though), bombs in particular bug me (why can a bomber only carry 2?!!)

I find that ordiance goes hand in hand with a high pilot rating and a target with low agility. There's nothing more satisfying than having 4-5 points worth of missiles destroy or seriously damage (hopefully with critical) a ship in the inital encounter before it even had the time to attack. Similiarly, there is nothing more disheartening than losing a ship before it even had a chance to fire its missiles.

I would be too, but I freakin love that YT. That limits me to three ships. Plus, my collection is pretty small.

In that case I'd consider picking up a couple Z-95's. They make good filler, fly a bit like the X-Wing does, and are so cheep that you could easily replace 1 X-Wing with 2 Z-95's in a HSF type list.

For example you could do something like this, it works out to be 100 points even.

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Han Solo (55), Marksmanship (3), Gunner (5), Millennium Falcon (1)

Also Osoling, if you don't get as many games as you'd like you should look at Vassal. Here's a tutorial written by Mu0n, who does most of the work for the X-Wing mod these days.

http://s93768914.onlinehome.us/xwing/

Honest truth, in that list I would probably replace the rookie with Cracken with either Swarm Tactics, or a hull upgrade, but that's just me.

So, while I spend a lot of time reading forums, I don't get to play as much as I'd like. I'm working on improving my squad builds. Here's where I'm at, which is probably foolish.

I find that I suck with secondary weapons, probably becuase of inexperience as a player. It seems like 4 points for a one-off is expensive. Am I wrong? Also, I'd rather put ordinance on a smaller ship, like an A-wing. Increasing red dice from 2 to 4 seems like a better choice than from 3 to 4.

I'd rather try to field another ship than field upgrades. As a result, I only use 6-7 points for upgrades. Am I better to leave a ship off, like a z-95 and use those points to reinforce other ships?

Lately, I have been running Chewbacca in the YT and Corran Horn in an E-Wing. I usually upgrade the E-Wing. But only with a few points.

What's your system? Do you pick upgrades first? Establish synergy first? Pick your ships first? What's your logic behind your builds?

In the vast majority of situations, another ship is better than more upgrades. Both sides now have a 12 point filler ship. If you have more than 12 points of upgrades, reconsider why you chose those. If there is a specific build reason you've spend 12+ on upgrades, it may or may not be an issue. Now, if you have spent more points on upgrades than the cheapest 3 attack ship for your faction, it is quite irresponsible not to add that 3 dice attack to your list. With Empire, that's quite low; 16 points gives you Backstabber, who gets 3 attack based on his card condition, Mauler Mithel, who gets 4 at range 1 for 17 points, OR 18 points for an Alpha Squadron Interceptor. If you have spent 18 points on upgrades in the empire, you should probably reconsider. For rebels, the cheapest 3 attack ship is the X-wing for 21, OR you could have Cracken for 19, who gets 2 attack but a great support ability and is PS8.

Upgrades are for exploiting synergies or for filling in points when you can't afford another ship.

So, while I spend a lot of time reading forums, I don't get to play as much as I'd like. I'm working on improving my squad builds. Here's where I'm at, which is probably foolish.

I find that I suck with secondary weapons, probably becuase of inexperience as a player. It seems like 4 points for a one-off is expensive. Am I wrong? Also, I'd rather put ordinance on a smaller ship, like an A-wing. Increasing red dice from 2 to 4 seems like a better choice than from 3 to 4.

I'd rather try to field another ship than field upgrades. As a result, I only use 6-7 points for upgrades. Am I better to leave a ship off, like a z-95 and use those points to reinforce other ships?

Lately, I have been running Chewbacca in the YT and Corran Horn in an E-Wing. I usually upgrade the E-Wing. But only with a few points.

What's your system? Do you pick upgrades first? Establish synergy first? Pick your ships first? What's your logic behind your builds?

In the vast majority of situations, another ship is better than more upgrades. Both sides now have a 12 point filler ship. If you have more than 12 points of upgrades, reconsider why you chose those. If there is a specific build reason you've spend 12+ on upgrades, it may or may not be an issue. Now, if you have spent more points on upgrades than the cheapest 3 attack ship for your faction, it is quite irresponsible not to add that 3 dice attack to your list. With Empire, that's quite low; 16 points gives you Backstabber, who gets 3 attack based on his card condition, Mauler Mithel, who gets 4 at range 1 for 17 points, OR 18 points for an Alpha Squadron Interceptor. If you have spent 18 points on upgrades in the empire, you should probably reconsider. For rebels, the cheapest 3 attack ship is the X-wing for 21, OR you could have Cracken for 19, who gets 2 attack but a great support ability and is PS8.

Upgrades are for exploiting synergies or for filling in points when you can't afford another ship.

Heh reconsider if you spend 18 points in upgrades in an imperial lists... I've been on a winning streak with an imperial list with 22 points of upgrades.

What's your system? Do you pick upgrades first? Establish synergy first? Pick your ships first? What's your logic behind your builds?

I usually pick ships first and then EPTs. I avoid missiles/torpedoes and bombs/mines on any pilot with a PS under 7. The rest depends on the ship(s) I'm using.

My rule of thumb is 0-3 points in upgrades is ideal. 4-6 is getting heavy and 7+ is too much. For large ships I add +3 to the equation so 0-6,7-9 and 10+. Of course there will always be exceptions.

The EPTs worth serious consideration are VI and PtL/Predator. Any of those will add excellent value to any ship. For large ships the crew card Gunner should be strongly considered. Nearly all upgrades that require an action to use should be avoided.

I usually pick ships first and then EPTs. I avoid missiles/torpedoes and bombs/mines on any pilot with a PS under 7. The rest depends on the ship(s) I'm using.

I've found that bombs are often more effective when the bomber moves earlier, rather than later.

The EPTs worth serious consideration are VI and PtL/Predator. Any of those will add excellent value to any ship. For large ships the crew card Gunner should be strongly considered. Nearly all upgrades that require an action to use should be avoided.

I think that's the wrong rule to use. Upgrades that require an action to use have to generate something at least as good as an action in order to be worthwhile, but the list of good upgrades that require an action to activate includes the Falcon title, Engine Upgrade, Expert Handling, R7-T1, R2-F2 (sometimes), Marksmanship (sometimes), Squad Leader, the upcoming Fleet Officer and Lando, and another handful of upgrades for Huge ships.

The 2014 Regionals Results thread that I am compiling and maintaining is full of a ton of data for lists and statistics.

I usually pick ships first and then EPTs. I avoid missiles/torpedoes and bombs/mines on any pilot with a PS under 7. The rest depends on the ship(s) I'm using.

I've found that bombs are often more effective when the bomber moves earlier, rather than later.

The EPTs worth serious consideration are VI and PtL/Predator. Any of those will add excellent value to any ship. For large ships the crew card Gunner should be strongly considered. Nearly all upgrades that require an action to use should be avoided.

I think that's the wrong rule to use. Upgrades that require an action to use have to generate something at least as good as an action in order to be worthwhile, but the list of good upgrades that require an action to activate includes the Falcon title, Engine Upgrade, Expert Handling, R7-T1, R2-F2 (sometimes), Marksmanship (sometimes), Squad Leader, the upcoming Fleet Officer and Lando, and another handful of upgrades for Huge ships.

An upgrade that can be used along with an action will usually be better then an upgrade that requires an action. Now I'm not saying action upgrades are bad. You just tend to get less value with them.

@ Osoling

I think you are right for the most part. Most upgrades work best as ways to fill in points, when you can no longer afford more ships. But there are some that don't work this way. Though this is a bigger deal recently, there have always been upgrades that were given extra weight.

The best example I can provide is the ion turret on the Y-wing. It has been around since the initial release, at it isn't really an extra little thing that you can put on a Y-wing if you have the points. I'm not saying that you have to put an ion turret on a y-wing, but a y-wing with an ion turret is almost a totally different ship that one without. There were times when I took y-wings so I could take ion turrets.

Now that the game has progressed there a lot more upgrades that play a central role in your list concept than just some extra things. This isn't just because new cool upgrades have come out, but we have become more safisticated in building our lists. An upgrade like for example squad leader, a great example of one of those, I buy it if I have extra points, upgrades, may now play a pivitol role in something like a Jonus Bomber swarm.

I have built several lists around upgrades lately. My most recent list was a bunch of Black Squadron Pilots with Preditor. I want to try a bunch of Royal Guard TIE Interceptors all with Vetran Instincts.

Honest truth, in that list I would probably replace the rookie with Cracken with either Swarm Tactics, or a hull upgrade, but that's just me.

I was trying to keep it as cheep as possible yet get to a 4 ship list. 2 Bandits means only spending $20-30 vs $30-45 for 3.

Folks, all this is great advice and I am definitely soaking it in. I really appreciate it. I ran out of "Likes" for the day so forgive me for not hitting the button.

I would be too, but I freakin love that YT. That limits me to three ships. Plus, my collection is pretty small.

In that case I'd consider picking up a couple Z-95's. They make good filler, fly a bit like the X-Wing does, and are so cheep that you could easily replace 1 X-Wing with 2 Z-95's in a HSF type list.

For example you could do something like this, it works out to be 100 points even.

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Rookie Pilot (21)

Han Solo (55), Marksmanship (3), Gunner (5), Millennium Falcon (1)

Also Osoling, if you don't get as many games as you'd like you should look at Vassal. Here's a tutorial written by Mu0n, who does most of the work for the X-Wing mod these days.

http://s93768914.onlinehome.us/xwing/

Yeah, vassal is awesome if you can't play a lot.