ooh he told us! Rage quit FTW

This isn't WWI or WWII. or some X-wing, or Rogue Squadron Jedi Starfighter. video game

I think the problem here is one I have with the game also and it is not the games fault. I like games like EotE, AoR, the Cortex system, and other narrative games for character interaction and most parts of the game session. When the rubber hits the road and it is time for some combat I want something that is not purely narrative in nature. I don't want a totally tactical game, but don't want a totally narrative either. I like to have some concrete tactics to play with. I think it brings more narration and creativity to the game to have more strategy. I am many player like me go crazy about things like maneuverability, the weak nature of capital ships, the vague range bands and facing. That is not a broken game it is just not my style.

I think people need to let others express there ideas and the style they enjoy without a need to prove right or wrong. The starter of this thread was basically saying the narrative nature of AoR space combat is too vague for how he likes to run a game and is looking for options to make it better. Probably calling it broken is cause for those who love the narrative games to jump in to defend, but it doesn't allow for an exchange of ideas if every time someone suggest a change or house rule people jump in and attack. Just reading through many threads on this page you have same dance happening again and again.

Person One suggests something to adjust the game large or small.

The Narrative Defenders jump in and explain why the game works perfectly.

Person One suggest it doesn't work perfect for them.

The narrative Defenders tell them they just suck as a GM.

Person One then either goes away or tells them they suck as a GM.

This is a great game, but it has a very narrow scope and can be modified to fit different gamer styles. The one thing the guys at WoTC are doing with 5e is trying to make a game that can be modified to fit styles. It is not a bad thing to look at ways to modify FFG StarWars to fit different styles.

On Topic: The WEG D6 adventure described the computer targeting systems used by gunners so it is at least a Legend that they use targeting computers.

Artteach, I agree with people expressing themselves and having different tastes. Narrative is certainly not for everyone.

However, the OP's OP claimed that the game was broken and he was gonna fix it... which just isn't true, nor is it even much of an opinion really. His ongoing attitude wasn't really one of exchanging ideas.

As for targeting computers, Luke famously shuts his off for the trench run, so they definitely have them.

I also have to assume that's what Darth Vader is dialing in every time it shows him in the cockpit.

In Darkstryder, the targeting computer on the FarStar is a new style the gunners are not used to. It gives a setback the first time you fire at a target then a boost every time after the first time (I am converting the mechanics from d6). They also have that until they have a few combats under their belts the gunners have an upgrade in difficulty because they are not used to the system. So when fighting multiple targets the PC gunners have chosen to go back to the previous targeting computer program or shut it down. So They actually have different styles of targeting computers (in Legends).

In the trench run I think someone upgraded Darth Vaders TIE from Windows 7 to Windows 8 and he just can't figure out how it works.

"I have you now... as soon as I... what the crap is a Charms Bar? Where is the Start button?"

Yes they have targeting computers but those computers are depicted as being nowhere near the level of effectiveness some people in this topic claim.

Even fully automated fighter craft don't show anything remotely close to reacting billions of times faster than a human pilot, and if the targeting computers were anywhere near as effective as some people in this topic are claiming there would have been no need for Luke to make a trench run because the computer would have compensated for Red Leader's split second error and his torps would have blown the Death Star. The whole reason Luke needed to switch off his targeting computer was that it couldn't compensate for the difference between the speed and direction his fighter was traveling at and the speed and direction of the Death Star's motion..

What's worse is anyone claiming that Laser bolts in Star Wars travel at the speed of light. Anyone who has watched a space battle in a Star Wars movie or an episode of The Clone Wars should realize that isn't true.

I didn't have a tantrum, and I didn't leave...I just refuse to argue with fanboys who can't see the simple fact that a fast moving maneuverable target will always be harder to hit than a slow lumbering one....it's pretty simple.

As for the comment about weapons and computers

Anyone whos seen even 5 minutes of one of the films can tell that weapons in starwars do not travel at the speed of light, your attributing real world physics to a fictional weapon and the source material doesn't support your theory

Also your super fast precise targeting computers can't even hit a 2 meter wide target when the firing ship is moving at a constant speed in a dead straight line...real precise eh. and the droid fighters you keep going on about are portrayed as being pretty lousy shots as well.

Now I'm leaving because it's obvious that even watching this thread is pointless as nothing worthwhile is ever going to come of it.

T

Bye.

Why would they all use them?

Why did everyone panic when Luke shut his off?

Luke hitting the target without his computer wasn't to show how crappy the computers were, it was to show Luke using the Force.

Bullets don't travel at the speed of light either, but you can't dodge them.

You also can't dodge anything you don't know is coming at you. I love how these clowns think that somehow they are going to know the precise moment they are fired at and be able to dodge anyway. Like somehow they have a up close view of enemy weapon as it fires or something.

An F-16 is more maneuverable than a C-17 it doesn't mean it's barrel rolling the whole time it is flying and if you're surrounded I don't quite know how you can expect your maneuverability to just provide blanket increases to everything.

What if certain super-maneuverable fighters (e.g. A-wing, TIE Interceptor) were allowed one use of Evasive Action per turn as an incidental (and not counting against their two maneuver per turn limit)?

...Unless of course we stop talking in theory, and actually pull out an example of the rules. Several pages have gone by since I said that I could probably narrate through a Y-wing with its engines disabled piloted by a Rookie and an A-Wing Ace in a fight against three minion TIE Fighters.

So here's the scenario. One A-Wing piloted by an uber-ace Established Agility is 6, Pilot Skill is 5. Y-wing Pilot, Agility 3, Piloting 1. For the sake of argument, let's give both A-Wing and Y-wing pilots the same gunnery skill of 2.

TIE FIghter Pilots have an Agility of 3, but count as minions. They're also starting at Speed 3.

Also, let's assume initiative rolls being what they are, you get the following: 1 - Rebel ; 2 - Imperial; 3 - Rebel. All ships start out at Short Range from each other.

Round 1: A-Wing pilot is on approach, but the rebels decide that the Y-wing should go first.

A-wing pilot: "Hey bud, I'm here to help. I'll be on them in a second and will try to draw their fire. Care to take a potshot?"

Y-wing pilot: "Sure thing boss. I'll see if I can get this pig to move."

The Y-wing pilot takes the first intiative slot. Since he's at 0 speed, he's not capable of closing any sort of distance. At best he has maneuvering thrusters. Since the TIE's will be able to choose whatever side of the ship they want to if they perform gain the advantage, he keeps the shields even for the time being. He targets the incoming TIEs with a pair of proton torpedoes, as they're the only thing that will work at short range. He spends the strain, aims twice, and fires against the TIE fighters, rolls 1 Green, two yellow, and 2 blue against 2 purple.

Net result: 2 successes, 1 advantage. One of the tie fighters takes 10 points of damage, blasting it to pieces the debris shreds into the solar panel of one of the others ships, but not enough to incapacitate it. Since the advantage is not enough to activate any of the qualities on the proton torpedoes, including linked, the Y-wing pilot decides to use it to give the incoming fighters a setback dice when attack, saying that the sudden explosion of one of their wingmates catches them off guard.

Next, the two remaining TIE fighters bear down on the hapless Y-wing. They spend one maneuver to reduce the range to close, and take a shooting action as a minion group. With their numbers reduced, their dice pool is now 1 yellow, 2 green, against the 2 purple of the Y-wing, and 2 setback dice, (1 for shields, 1 for the use of advantage).

The roll yields a net of 1 Success 1 Triumph, and 2 threat against the Y-wing. While the Y-wing's armour absorbs half of the TIE's incoming blaster bolts (3 total hull damage), the TIE's shot rips apart the Y-wing's superior shields, rendering them useless. However, the TIEs cut it a bit close to the Y-wing's hull, and will take one setback dice to their next action.

Lastly the Ace A-wing roars in at speed 5 to close the distance, and takes a gain the advantage maneuver against the TIEs, hoping to line up a killing shot next turn. Being the uber-ace that he is, with 5 yellow and 1 green, plus 3 boost die for the a-wing's maneuverability, going at speed 5 verses the speed 3 of the TIEs (1 purple), , he clearly succeeds with 4 successes and ELEVEN advantage. He screams in, spending 3 of the advantage for a free evasive maneuver, and then spends 4 advantage to add 2 more setback dice to the TIE Fighters' next attack. with the last advantage, the last 4 advantage he spends to add 2 boost dice to his next shot.

Round 2: This time, A-Wing goes first, given the awesome results of his last roll, he attacks with a gunnery skill of 2, which means he's rolling with 4 green, 2 yellow, 2 blue, and he aims for a third blue. Since he successfully gained the advantage, he gets to ignore both the penalties for his evasive maneuvers, plus the evasive maneuvers of the TIEs, if they were evading. The attack is against 2 purple. The resulting attack from the A-wing using just laser cannons is 7 successes and 5 advantage(!) The A-wing screams in, unloading a blistering hail of light laser cannon fire. It inflicts a total of 11 points of damage, minus the two armour of the TIE Fighters. The pilot then uses 2 advantage to activate the linked quality, which does the same amount of damage again. Both remaining TIE Fighters are shredded by the Ace's precision flying. He comes around, using the three remaining advantage to boost the morale of the Y-wing pilot who then sets about trying to repair the ship's engines before the incoming TIE Interceptors get there...

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In this case, the Pilot of the A-wing was so much better than the TIE fighters, that they didn't stand a chance. That volley of fire from the A-wing would have inflicted enough total damage to wipe out three minion TIE Fighters in a single round of shooting.

Now, suppose for a moment that the A-wing completely wiffed the ball, missing entirely with no success/advantage/threat generated. Highly unlikely...

The TIE Fighters return fire on the A-wing which has the advantage on them.

So, 1 yellow, 2 green, verses 1 red and 1 purple (Evasive maneuvers), 1 setback from the shields (A-wing gets to determine facing), 1 setback dice from the threat generated on their last attack, and 2 more setback dice from the additional advantage gained from Gain the Advantage. The TIEs try to aim their attack, so 1 more boost die. The attack misses, although it generates two advantage, which the TIEs might use to hamper the A-wing's efforts in the next turn.

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This example didn't take into account pilot talents, but the A-wing using gain the advantage set up a tremendous shot against TIE fighters... especially given the A-wing pilots supreme piloting skills. Even with Mediocre gunnery, he was able to steer an amazingly maneuverable ship in such a way that he took out 2 TIEs in a single round, and could have done all three, given the damage generated.

I think this thread has severely veered off course and I'll just bid my own adieu and wish everyone happy gaming, whatever game it is they choose to play or not play. Tah tah.

and then spends 4 advantage to add 2 more setback dice to the TIE Fighters' next attack. with the last advantage, the last 4 advantage he spends to add 2 boost dice to his next shot.

Minor point, but that selection from the effects chart can't be stacked.

A-Wings in AoR do indeed have an actual use (and a cool one!), just not necessarily the one that the fluff text (and the lore behind it) would suggest.

A-Wings in AoR seem to be built not for intercepting enemy fighters or bombers (for that, just use an X-Wing with a speed upgrade mod, cheaper and better than a stock A-Wing), but are instead for intercepting shuttles and gunships. Those larger vessels will suffer from the A-Wing's reduced Silhouette (up to Daunting and Formidable difficulties, with Tricky Target), but are still vulnerable to missiles and (to a small degree) the A-Wing's light lasers. Also, the A-Wing's speed could let it engage and disengage with those targets more easily, shaving a round or two off the time spent getting shot at. Which is good, since those opponents will one-shot the A-Wings.

However, my point about an upgraded X-Wing being a better "interceptor" still seems problematic to me and my players. I too, am considering minor house-rule options.

You also can't dodge anything you don't know is coming at you. I love how these clowns think that somehow they are going to know the precise moment they are fired at and be able to dodge anyway. Like somehow they have a up close view of enemy weapon as it fires or something.

True but how often do we really see ships being attacked without them noticing that the attacker is out there in Star Wars, barring stealth tech or the entire crew being dumb enough to leave the bridge unmanned?

Honestly I don't hate FFG space combat system but I do think some of the claims of its supporters like the claim that Star Wars Laser shots travel at lightspeed, or that targeting computers in Star Wars react "bazillion times faster than a squishy pilot." with no proof to back them up and in the case of the former proof in the movies to the contrary are ludicrous. Plus the Targeting computers don't fire weapons outside of droid fighters based on what the movies show us.

Honestly I don't hate FFG space combat system but I do think some of the claims of its supporters like the claim that Star Wars Laser shots travel at lightspeed, or that targeting computers in Star Wars react "bazillion times faster than a squishy pilot." with no proof to back them up and in the case of the former proof in the movies to the contrary are ludicrous. Plus the Targeting computers don't fire weapons outside of droid fighters based on what the movies show us.

The reason we saw the laser shots as we did was because of the effects department and it would have been boring to basically not show the shots if they were actually traveling at light speed. Not because of the physics of the Star Wars universe. Also, the targeting computers looked as they did because in the mid-seventies, that was high-tech. But I don't think they did more than assist in targeting the fast moving ships or in getting a missile lock. I was playing Space Invaders at the arcade and my Atari at home in those days. That stuff in Star Wars looked awesome.

So basically you are saying that what is shown in the Star Wars movies about the nature of the setting's weapons is wrong, and you are correct? Are you kidding me?

Yes the special effects set the speed of weapons fire to what they felt best suited their purposes. That in no way negates the fact that what we see on screen proves that the shots do not travel faster than light. What we see on screen in a setting like Star Wars is how things work in that setting. If we see energy weapon shots traveling slower than light than they travel slower than light.

In general therms this is one of the main traits from Edge (traits doesn't mean necessarelly a problem).

I LOVE the concept that you get incapacited (person and ship scale) with just a few hits (generally between 1 and 4).

Of course in space with bigger ship like freighters can sustain more hits.

The other point is that you get usually hit SOO OFTEN, at least for my preferences. But as I said, its just trait from Edge.

Each battle or combat is more than a mere act of two or three hits with a blaster, laser or sword. Its a full scene, probably about 1-2 minutes with tons of side effects, consequences... a narrative system itself. Of course, the fact that the best pilot can be still "easily" hit by a rookie... space hamster with a turbo-slingshoot but... in generals therms, is a good system.

Heroes (PC's) are awesome and capable of tons of things, but, a simple street thug can harm or put heroe in problems.

And if you let me make a suggestion, sentencies like "if you don't like it, don't play it" doesn't use to be so "gentle". I know that are a lot of trolls and hyper-saiyan-sith-ragers that use to say "everything is a bantha podoo!" without suggest ideas or help the others to improve or solve the "problem". Constructive critics are always welcome because helps each one o us to grow up and to develop awesome projects.

This forum/community is an AWESOME tool. Use it for the common good

So basically you are saying that what is shown in the Star Wars movies about the nature of the setting's weapons is wrong, and you are correct? Are you kidding me?

Yes the special effects set the speed of weapons fire to what they felt best suited their purposes. That in no way negates the fact that what we see on screen proves that the shots do not travel faster than light. What we see on screen in a setting like Star Wars is how things work in that setting. If we see energy weapon shots traveling slower than light than they travel slower than light.

[digression]He isn't saying that, now you're just being silly and perhaps intentionally trying to be confrontational and misinterpreting his statement? Please, some modicum of etiquette would be nice.

Of course the laser bolts don't travel faster than light, because, I mean, it's light... Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation = Laser. Light can't travel faster than itself. Few things travel faster than light, I mean they've apparently managed some quantum teleportation of information, which I guess is instantaneous, and then I guess there are some theories on some other stuff, but I'm no physicist and all this is pretty high end theoretical and experimental stuff, and it's real world.

I mean, sure what we see in the film is representative of the universe, but also how the film-makers wanted to portray and visualise it for dramatic effect, this doesn't immediately equate that the physics of Star Wars is vastly different than ours and stuff made of light travels at sub-sonic speeds, I mean, at a leisurely pace crossing the battlefield. Some sort of abstraction should be possible without someone using "it's not like that in the film"-card, particularly when it is so open to interpretation. Of course, one may disagree with said interpretation, but using the "film"-card as some sort of appeal to authority and justification for one's own interpretation is basically, fundamentally, unwise.

This whole discussion is somewhat interesting, but I find the premisses to differ too much between the two more or less polarised positions. And it seems pride dominates even when trying to be understanding of the opposition.[/digression]

Basically, whether or not speed should have a direct effect on the difficulty to hit the vehicle on a Gunnery check is a viable question. I don't think it's needed - as Agatheron's example shows us - but adding setback dice for speed 5 and 6 could be a solution, or as someone suggested that A-Wings, and other speed 6 and perhaps some speed 5 starfighters, could get to perform Evasive Maneuvers as an Incidental once per turn, is also a usable solution I think. It's more in line with the system as I understand it, than using setback dice.

I rather suspect that if FFG ever release a v2.0 of the system, one of the bullet points they will use to advertise it will be something along the lines of

-and now with working starship combat system!

But... the starship combat system works... it does. Or am I just imagining it?

Not a fan. Pretty much for OP reasons (but I shrug at it, rather than get mad).

Not sure what I'd do to make it feel how I'd want it to feel. Seems like that'd be a ground-up fix - more trouble than it's probably worth.

In the X-Wing miniatures game, more maneuverable ships are harder to hit (A-Wings roll 3 defense dice compared to the Y-Wing's 1), and fire is modified by range. Two things I wish the RPG did. Yet both games are written by the same guy!

Anyone care to post their X-Wing to RPG conversion? I'm going to assume somebody's done that.

Well, that goes to show the difference in design and intention between the games. One is purely tactical, whereas the other is more about story, narration, cinematics, stuff like that, you know role-playing. The difference is good as far as I'm concerned - both are good games, but for different types of gaming entertainment.