So a couple of my players are asking why they can't raise their Characteristics after Character Creation and I haven't seen any real reason not to let them. I'm reluctant to just allow it, but this was also their first time playing the game and with learning the rules they invested more in skills and talents then stats thinking they could raise them. It was only recently while going over the forums I found ouy you couldn't. The default is to let them completely redo their characters, but is asks the question "why can't Characteristics be raised?". And yes I am aware that the rules say you can't train Characteristics after creation accept by the Determination Talent.

I'm considering only allowing if a certain number of times, or raising the cost to account for "significant training time". Or possibly making it a talents at the top of every tree. Looking for Ideas or suggestions on either balancing raising characteristics or thinking of a good reason not to let them other than "it's in the rules".

I think the problem is each characteristic point gives you an extra die on a LOT of rolls, so spending those points all over the place would get unbalanced quickly. What I would suggest if this is a case of 'we didnt realize how important this would be' is to allow them to spend future XP on it, but cap them off at the amount of XP they got at character creation minus what they spent increasing characteristics at character creation. That will keep it so that it is at least balanced. So for instance, a wookie that raised brawn to 4 at creation and spent everything else elsewhere would have 90 - 40 = 50 XP to spend on future characteristic increases before you stop him from doing it any more.

The biggest reason is if you can raise attributes as easily as you're suggesting the shelflife of the characters is greatly reduced. A single attribute can impact half a dozen or more skills simultaneously so in very short order the characters are essentially great at everything and have no reason whatsoever to actually buy skill ranks because raising attributes is just as easy as buying skill ranks.

If you allow this it completely unbalances the skill system. Characters become all about attributes since these are used for all roles.

There are ways to raise stats, the most obvious being Dedication. Besides that there are mechanical ways. The right cyberwar can buy you an easy +1 Dex, Int, or Brawn.

In addition to the above, it's also probably a combo of game and galactic philosophy. You don't see any of the iconic characters in the movies developing their stats (...well, maybe Luke on Dagobah...), but instead they are developing their skills and talents. Personally I prefer it, since changing your attributes in real life is very hard to do.

Sounds like they're coming from D&D, where stat-raising is constant...and not to derail the thread, but the latest D&D core rules make it even crazier. By level 20 your basic fighter will make Conan look wimpy and Einstein look stupid. I'm glad this game goes nowhere near that.

but is asks the question "why can't Characteristics be raised?".

In games like this one where there is a Characteristic/Skill division it is not uncommon for the rules to say that Characterisitics are (more or less) fixed at character creation. As Whafrog mentioned, D&D is one such game.

Characterisitics represent a character's innate core ability. How purely strong he is, how purely smart he is, et cetera. For the most part these things are a product of a person's genetics and early life. By the time he reaches adulthood (which is where he starts at character creation) these things are going to change very little.

You can't, for instance, really raise (or lower) your basic intelligence. Based on your genetics and early life, your core intelligence is pretty much fixed by the time you reach early adulthood. In game terms, this means that your Intelligence characteristic cannot normally be raised beyond its starting level. You can, however, study to become more and more knowledgable about specific topics. This is what skills ranks represent and you are free to raise those as you wish.

The long answer is that is what the developers of game have found to be game balancing after playing the system for over a year before the CRB was published and released, and we can't forget about the rough year that Beta was out. The makers of the game just didn't put this in there to "hurt or limit" player characters. Back in the old WEG days you could raise an Attribute for the cost of the number before the D times 10 for one pip. So to go from Dex 3D to 3D+1 would cost 30 character points. For that system, that was a heavy price. For D20 CR/RCR/Saga you could get one Attribute point every four levels. So in getting to 20th level, you could get 5 Attribute points, but that would normally only get you a +2 or +3 bonus, not that great compared to what bring 20th level gave you...

So in about all incarnations, and really about every RPG raising your characters core Characteristics/Attributes/what have you is never easy or cheap.

I'm sure that the game developers have tried and found raising Characteristics in Edge using Experience points after PC creation was unbalancing, hence the talents at the end of the talent trees.

This game being what it is, I feel that it is important to understand the Rules As Written(RAW) before arbitrarily creating and implementing house rules. Especially when it is just players wanting more "power". But ultimately it is your game. If you feel that they can upgrade Characteristics with XP after creation, then you can allow it.

I see this is your first post, so welcome to our little mad community of miscreants . We all don't get along, and some of us play nice, and some us don't, but I can assure no one on here knows as much as I do... I'm just messing around. There might be or two others that know almost as much as me... No, there are ton of great people on here, and the vast majority have great knowledge and insight.

I assume; yes I know what assuming does, with this being your first post you are new to EotE. I suggest you play the game the way the book intends, and don't let your players push you into anything else if you are not comfortable with it. If you are not new to EotE, then why did it take you so long to post on here!?

With my new group I did stress this very fact, but I have played this system before. If your group is not happy with how their characters turned out, if it were my group, I would let them rebuild their characters instead of creating new house rules.

Again the only real answer is: this is what the developers and play testers found to be game balancing in the creation of the game. I have always loved having someone new join my group, and they try to bring in their crazy home brewed character that their old GM let them create without using any rules. "Well I know I'm first level, but my old GM let me start with a Darksaber, and all these extra force abilities because of my background. Also, we determined that since I'm a Gray Jedi, I don't get dark side points when I use Dark Side powers. Also, anytime I don't roll a 20, I can re-roll until I do, also I have a back pack sized Death Star that only listens to my commands"... Ok I digress now.

I say run the game as the book says to. This is what the makers found to be the best. If you find the book to be too limiting, then you can always change the rules to better suit your and your groups needs.

In any case, good luck with your game and group. MTFBWYA.

When my players first started the game, they had the same problem. Most of them had one 3 and the rest were twos. I told them they can spend XP to raise one additional characteristic and that was it. So they could raise their 3 to a 4 or add an additional 3. Most of them did. A year later and it's like it never happened.

When my players first started the game, they had the same problem. Most of them had one 3 and the rest were twos. I told them they can spend XP to raise one additional characteristic and that was it. So they could raise their 3 to a 4 or add an additional 3. Most of them did. A year later and it's like it never happened.

Whereas I kind of have the reverse problem. I had played the original SWRPG a long, long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away. A few months back, I decided to get back into SWRPG, and EotE was recommended to me by the other guys at the game shop I went to. They had lots of experience with the current game, and when I mentioned that I liked playing Wookiees, they encouraged me to do a Marauder and spend virtually all my XP getting his Brawn up to 5.

In retrospect, I kind of wish I had gotten the Brawn to 4 and taken the remaining 50 XP and put them into Willpower instead.

Hindsight is almost always 20/20. And "Buyers Remorse" is a common occurrence.

If given the chance, I would not actually go back and re-spend my original XP differently, but I think that this is an option that many good GMs will give to their players after they’ve gotten a few games under their belt.

So, at this point, it seems like it would be between the GM and the players as to whether or not they could re-spend the original XP to make characters with a slightly different balance, or if the players want to spend XP on getting talents like Dedication, and possibly do that multiple times with a variety of different Specializations.

I've had a few players try and buy to 5 right off the bat, I always encourage them to go no more than 4.

Thank you for the quick feed back, I do see how raising stats willy-nilly could defiantly over power the game hence why I looked for advice. I'm not brand new to the game, but I am still learning it as I haven't had a chance to even be a player only a GM. I usually don't post on sites instead look for answers on what other people have posted (why keep asking the same question right?). I don't think my players wanted to go power gamers they just wanted to flush out their characteristics now that they understand which ones to use, and none of them really cared for Cyberware. (though they did come from D&D 4.0 so yeah I can see how there mind worked now) I appericate peoples quick responses Ian2400, R2builder, and Kaosoe's advice was particular helpful. I think I know how to proceed from here.

Back in WEG Star Wars it cost a heck of a lot to increase characteristics, just becoming force sensitive after the start of the game is actually cheaper!

EDIT: Ah someone beat me to that point .

To me this game it looks a lot easier to increase characteristics, have you tried just counting how much it would cost via the talents their character has access to, to be able to gain that characteristic increase and offer to allow them to gain that +1 increase for twice the cost if they had just bought the talents involved on their tree to get that anyway?

Sorry if that sounds harsh but the point was to highlight to them they have the means to get that increase it only requires they put the effort into it rather than browbeat their gm over something they have better things to worry about... like running games for them to enjoy!

( I do have my priorities after all! )

I really ought to double check on droids since there was something similar to this in another thread where the droid character maxed out their agility to become a sniping master.

EDIT: KOTOR had an episode where the Jedi underwent a genetic modification at the hands of "Mother" a Rakati device that I think created the Twi-lek race so they could use the force better, nothing says you can't have them find some ancient device or fall prey to a mad scientist whose research on them allows them to swap points around but not allow them to increase what they have.

This is just in case I'm misjudging them.

If you want to have more Characteristic increases than you get with just Dedication, you could house rule in a free increase every so often (perhaps two or three times per campaign, but no more). I might even pirate from Saga Edition's destiny system a bit and say that, when you fulfill a destiny (like blowing up the Death Star or capturing Han Solo), you increase one attribute by one point, to a maximum of five. You would have one destiny per campaign arc, which you would have the chance to fulfill during the climax of that arc.

This would make Dedication a lot less special.

I think its important for the balance of the system to prevent raising of core stats just willy nilly.

It makes when you finally do get dedication much more special, and it makes each point of growth in any skill much more special. You can play the same character much longer before you max out and need to restart.

Maybe you could allow for them to purchase 1 point in 1 attribute for like 50 xp. Just to make them happy.