From the regionals results, it looks like wave 4 tournaments are being dominated by named Phantom lists and Falcons. I've got a few ideas for lists that might be strong against those two (though consequently weak vs. swarms) and I'm wondering how folks think they stack up, or other ideas that people might have for having a good chance against both list types.

The core of my idea is:

Delta + Ion

3x Scimitar w/ Flechette.

To handle Phantoms, you need two Bombers with arc and TL on it at the same time. A bomber and the Defender may work as well. This can be tricky, but not impossible. The main trouble is getting the TL allows your opponent the chance to rush in to range 1, denying your shot. In my experience, phantoms tend to move a lot, but mostly laterally, closing slowly for range 3 shots.

Against a Falcon the intent is to generate enough action denial to hit it while you can. I realize there are lists that are better against one or the other. I'm trying to find a middle ground that stands a chance against both.

What I've tried for the remaining 13 points:

Two proton bombs and a proximity mine vs Echo, Soontir, Carnor. The proton bombs did no damage but might've deterred Soontir chasing my damaged Delta. I won this game even after badly underestimating Echo, who managed to allow only one flechette to have arc. My opponent had some pretty bad dice rolls at opportune times, but I think I did as well. Finished the game with a prox mine drop on Soontir.

Munitions Failsafe x3, 2x Seismic, 1 Prox, SD on Delta vs Chewie w/ Falcon + C3P0, Garven, Hobbie w/ R3-A2. I won this one but due to time and against a new player who bumped his Garven repeatedly. The Falcon made some unexpected maneuvers and stayed away from my flechettes, so I handily took out the Xs with ions and flechettes instead, which was the opposite of the plan. Didn't have time to see what would happen next, but I had only lost 1 bomber.

Also considering upgrading Delta to Vessery + Adrenaline Rush, 3x Munitions Failsafes, 1 Prox, but this means Vessery gets TL+F, but has nothing to strip tokens before his shot.

Any other ideas to add a Lizard or Spock to the Rock, Paper, Scissors? Totally different builds are fine.

How are you planning on denying the falcon actions? Getting into range 1 of the Falcon is not where Bombers want to be.

Triple-stress it, then run in to block with the prox bomber, who can also drop his bomb. It'll get hit hard if they don't bump, but only after its dropped all its payload, and they'll probably have to skip green maneuvers to avoid the bump. If the falcon has no actions from the stress, 4 naked dice isn't so bad against 2 green and 6 hull.

How are you planning on denying the falcon actions? Getting into range 1 of the Falcon is not where Bombers want to be.

I'm guessing with stress.

Two proton bombs and a proximity mine vs Echo, Soontir, Carnor. The proton bombs did no damage but might've deterred Soontir chasing my damaged Delta.

The Delta can't carry a bomb. Am I missing something here? Edit: I forgot there were three bombers.

Vessery could be very strong with bombers, but your opponent is almost certainly going to kill him first. If you put an Advanced Proton Torpedo on one of them, you could draw fire away from the Defender, but you are likely to end up wasting that ordnance.

Well, I wouldn't rule out a bandwagon effect in the early Wave 4 regionals results: Phantoms are sexy ninjas, and Falcons represent not only the most obvious countermove against Phantoms but a fairly reliable list staple on their own.

Versus Phantoms you want some combination of high PS, turrets, and control effects; versus Falcons you want to focus on offensive efficiency (which really means taking lots of cheap guns). For my money, I'd start building around Roark, who brings both a PS advantage and a turret to the table...

(I'll post more later, but it's lunch time. )

Two proton bombs and a proximity mine vs Echo, Soontir, Carnor. The proton bombs did no damage but might've deterred Soontir chasing my damaged Delta. I won this game even after badly underestimating Echo, who managed to allow only one flechette to have arc. My opponent had some pretty bad dice rolls at opportune times, but I think I did as well. Finished the game with a prox mine drop on Soontir.

That was a great game. I felt like your list was very effective at neutralizing the Phantom. Stress just messes them up big time.

You can't stress the Falcon with Flechettes. It has too high a hull value.

The Delta can't carry a bomb. Am I missing something here?

You can't stress the Falcon with Flechettes. It has too high a hull value.

Yup, you're right. Forgot about that stipulation. You win the thread. Anyone have any other ideas? Haha

The Delta can't carry a bomb. Am I missing something here?

My delta and two bombers were chasing the Phantom, with Soontir behind. Would have been more effective if I didn't have the last bomber taking advantage of an ion+stress Carnor for Soontir to chase instead.

You can't stress the Falcon with Flechettes. It has too high a hull value.

Yup, you're right. Forgot about that stipulation. You win the thread. Anyone have any other ideas? Haha

So something like this:

Roark Garnet — HWK-290 19

Ion Cannon Turret 5

Tactician 2

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing 23

Ion Cannon Turret 5

R3-A2 2

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Might do better against the Falcon, but harder to get a Phantom stressed. It has to be in Dutch's arc and range 2 of Roark. Though I guess with Roark and Dutch, they have a decent chance of successfully ioning it instead. Depends much more on slow ships surviving the approach.

So something like this:

Roark Garnet — HWK-290 19

Ion Cannon Turret 5

Tactician 2

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing 23

Ion Cannon Turret 5

R3-A2 2

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Might do better against the Falcon, but harder to get a Phantom stressed. It has to be in Dutch's arc and range 2 of Roark. Though I guess with Roark and Dutch, they have a decent chance of successfully ioning it instead. Depends much more on slow ships surviving the approach.

Generally when I'm building a list with competition in mind I ask myself how I am going to handle three things. Highly mobile ships like phantoms and interceptors, large durable ships like the falcon or doomshuttle and swarms. It's tough finding something that can reliably do all three and still be fun to play.

So something like this:

Roark Garnet — HWK-290 19

Ion Cannon Turret 5

Tactician 2

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing 23

Ion Cannon Turret 5

R3-A2 2

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Might do better against the Falcon, but harder to get a Phantom stressed. It has to be in Dutch's arc and range 2 of Roark. Though I guess with Roark and Dutch, they have a decent chance of successfully ioning it instead. Depends much more on slow ships surviving the approach.

I'd drop Tactician and R3-A2 to equip your Blues with either FCS or Flechettes, and then get lots of practice. But it's definitely the kind of squad I like!

From the regionals results, it looks like wave 4 tournaments are being dominated by named Phantom lists and Falcons. I've got a few ideas for lists that might be strong against those two (though consequently weak vs. swarms) and I'm wondering how folks think they stack up, or other ideas that people might have for having a good chance against both list types.

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer this, but I've got a question:

Now that wave 4 is out, and the named Phantom lists are making a splash, which is being countered by (even) greater prevalence of the falcon, but that your list is not good against swarms, is the following rock<scissors<paper<rock true?

Swarm < Phantom < Falcons < Swarm ??

If so, are tournaments decided by scheduling more than piloting?

To take out a YT-1300, stress it and then shoot it with an Ion Pulse Missile. That's the two ion tokens you need to keep it from moving or acting next round.

What about something like this?

Wedge Antilles (27) with Adrenaline Rush (1), R3-A2 (2) and Engine Upgrade (4)

Biggs (25)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12) x2

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

At 98 points, you'll win or at least get to roll off for most initiative bids, even against that 98-point Whisper/Yorr list.

Wedge can get most Phantoms in arc, and gets to shoot before them. R3-A2 lets him stress Phantoms or YTs. Wedge also laughs at C3-PO in a Falcon. Adrenaline Rush lets him K-Turn and boost, or K-Turn while stressed from R3.

Biggs provides protection. The Z-95s provide extra firepower and blocking. The Bandits can be replaced by a FCS Blue if you want room.

EDIT: goes without saying that this list is scum.

From the regionals results, it looks like wave 4 tournaments are being dominated by named Phantom lists and Falcons. I've got a few ideas for lists that might be strong against those two (though consequently weak vs. swarms) and I'm wondering how folks think they stack up, or other ideas that people might have for having a good chance against both list types.

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer this, but I've got a question:

Now that wave 4 is out, and the named Phantom lists are making a splash, which is being countered by (even) greater prevalence of the falcon, but that your list is not good against swarms, is the following rock<scissors<paper<rock true?

Swarm < Phantom < Falcons < Swarm ??

If so, are tournaments decided by scheduling more than piloting?

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer this, but I've got a question:

Now that wave 4 is out, and the named Phantom lists are making a splash, which is being countered by (even) greater prevalence of the falcon, but that your list is not good against swarms, is the following rock<scissors<paper<rock true?

Swarm < Phantom < Falcons < Swarm ??

If so, are tournaments decided by scheduling more than piloting?

No, it doesn't determine the match, but it does provide an advantage between equality skilled players. Look at the regionals results. Phantom still beat Falcon in the final round. But the meta is still with thinking about if you want to do well.

What about something like this?

Wedge Antilles (27) with Adrenaline Rush (1), R3-A2 (2) and Engine Upgrade (4)

Biggs (25)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12) x2

Tala Squadron Pilot (13)

At 98 points, you'll win or at least get to roll off for most initiative bids, even against that 98-point Whisper/Yorr list.

Wedge can get most Phantoms in arc, and gets to shoot before them. R3-A2 lets him stress Phantoms or YTs. Wedge also laughs at C3-PO in a Falcon. Adrenaline Rush lets him K-Turn and boost, or K-Turn while stressed from R3.

Biggs provides protection. The Z-95s provide extra firepower and blocking. The Bandits can be replaced by a FCS Blue if you want room.

EDIT: goes without saying that this list is scum.

I feel like that list would get eaten by a Phantom. It only has to arc-dodge one ship in order to maintain its advantage. I don't think a single stress will do it, either. Phantom and YT alike just green maneuver and continue on. Need to ion-stress or double stress to get the effect you want against both builds.

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer this, but I've got a question:

Now that wave 4 is out, and the named Phantom lists are making a splash, which is being countered by (even) greater prevalence of the falcon, but that your list is not good against swarms, is the following rock<scissors<paper<rock true?

Swarm < Phantom < Falcons < Swarm ??

First, I don't think it is true. "Swarm" covers a lot of ground, and not every swarm is equally vulnerable to Phantoms--nor is every Phantom list equally powerful against the most typical swarms. Ditto Falcons: do you mean Chewie with three Headhunters, Lando with Jan and a Y-wing, Han with two Rookies...? Without knowing more about both the Phantom list and the Falcon list, I wouldn't feel comfortable putting a bet either way on a generalized matchup. And of course various Falcon lists have different matchups against different kinds of swarms.

Second, I think that even if the Scissors > Paper > Rock > Scissors were true, matchup/schedule would still be just one of the many factors that impact the outcome of a game. Dice are still going to be huge, especially if players start investing heavily in Phantoms--for a long time, one of the theorized limiting aspects of the Interceptors performance was/is the likelihood of completely blowing an evade roll at least once in a long tourney. And Phantoms, even more than Interceptors, require strong tactical thinking and technical play to succeed; I think once it becomes clear how demanding they really are, a lot of people who are currently attracted to them will go looking for alternatives, and any Rock-Paper-Scissors relationship will be relaxed as diversity of builds increases again.

So something like this:

Roark Garnet — HWK-290 19

Ion Cannon Turret 5

Tactician 2

"Dutch" Vander — Y-Wing 23

Ion Cannon Turret 5

R3-A2 2

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Blue Squadron Pilot — B-Wing 22

Might do better against the Falcon, but harder to get a Phantom stressed. It has to be in Dutch's arc and range 2 of Roark. Though I guess with Roark and Dutch, they have a decent chance of successfully ioning it instead. Depends much more on slow ships surviving the approach.

I'd drop Tactician and R3-A2 to equip your Blues with either FCS or Flechettes, and then get lots of practice. But it's definitely the kind of squad I like!

I recommend the drop of the droid and the tactician as mentioned, but I would replace one B with 2 bandits and adding FCS to the other B. That gives you 5 ships, 2 with low PS for action denial, while the same time increasing the firepower slightly (FCS should do good, and 2 nadits can do a little bit more damage than one naked b, especially when you get them into R1, while at the same time they will survive somewhat longer thanks to better agility).

Swarm < Phantom < Falcons < Swarm ??

If so, are tournaments decided by scheduling more than piloting?

This is pretty much the conclusion we've reached with our friends.

ro sham bo anyone?

I don't know the ins and outs enough to answer this, but I've got a question:

Now that wave 4 is out, and the named Phantom lists are making a splash, which is being countered by (even) greater prevalence of the falcon, but that your list is not good against swarms, is the following rock<scissors<paper<rock true?

Swarm < Phantom < Falcons < Swarm ??

First, I don't think it is true. "Swarm" covers a lot of ground, and not every swarm is equally vulnerable to Phantoms--nor is every Phantom list equally powerful against the most typical swarms. Ditto Falcons: do you mean Chewie with three Headhunters, Lando with Jan and a Y-wing, Han with two Rookies...? Without knowing more about both the Phantom list and the Falcon list, I wouldn't feel comfortable putting a bet either way on a generalized matchup. And of course various Falcon lists have different matchups against different kinds of swarms.

Second, I think that even if the Scissors > Paper > Rock > Scissors were true, matchup/schedule would still be just one of the many factors that impact the outcome of a game. Dice are still going to be huge, especially if players start investing heavily in Phantoms--for a long time, one of the theorized limiting aspects of the Interceptors performance was/is the likelihood of completely blowing an evade roll at least once in a long tourney. And Phantoms, even more than Interceptors, require strong tactical thinking and technical play to succeed; I think once it becomes clear how demanding they really are, a lot of people who are currently attracted to them will go looking for alternatives, and any Rock-Paper-Scissors relationship will be relaxed as diversity of builds increases again.

Granted, there is diversity in the paradigms 'Swarm', 'Falcon', 'Phantom', but how diverse are they at high-level tournaments?

I'm looking at the Wave 3 vs. Wave 4 Regional results that MajorJuggler has so awesomely posted. Just to go with the YT, if 25% of all ships being flown are YTs, and ~half of those are Chewie, whereas 88% of the support of those YTs is Z-95s, then I'd say there's precious little diversity in the Falcon list. While there's a bit more diversity in the support for the Phantom, almost all Phantoms are flown by Whisper. Regarding swarms, it's amazing how the swarm really has been replaced by the Phantom list, going from nearly 2/3rds of all imperial lists to 6%, with Phantom lists being 72% of imperial lists, and half of those being Whisper + 4 or 5 TIE/Ln.

That's not all that much diversity, and it seems like the going meta is Whisper + TIEs vs. Chewie + Z-95s.

So, what's the build that can be highly competitive against those two lists simultaneously? If there isn't one, is that because there is no R<P<S game, because there isn't a third option, and the meta is more like Whisper<=>Chewie?

I can't really blame anyone, we all want to play with our new toys. =)

That being said, I'm not running any phantom or chewy lists. I imagine I'll be playing against a few though..