If you're bringing 24+pt Roark to the table and not bringing another ion source, you can't ion a large ship.

That's not technically true. Large ships keep the first ion token until they get the second, so you can still ion the large ship, but it will only be every second round at best. Which is not really good enough, so you are correct in that one source isn't really enough.

If you're bringing 24+pt Roark to the table and not bringing another ion source, you can't ion a large ship.

That's not technically true. Large ships keep the first ion token until they get the second, so you can still ion the large ship, but it will only be every second round at best. Which is not really good enough, so you are correct in that one source isn't really enough.

I disagree. Although my most successful build started with 2 ions, when one went down I was still good. I particularly enjoyed spreading the ions around my opponents' ships, so they would forget their large ship had an ion token on it and would maneuver into bad positions. So while it's not ideal, it can still be very effective.

If you're bringing 24+pt Roark to the table and not bringing another ion source, you can't ion a large ship.

That's not technically true. Large ships keep the first ion token until they get the second, so you can still ion the large ship, but it will only be every second round at best. Which is not really good enough, so you are correct in that one source isn't really enough.

Even this old dog can learn new tricks. Shows you how often I play rebels (and ions in general!). I guess that doesn't make it useless after all. WoW. Can't believe that has never come up before in my all my games since wave 2! Well, to be fair, I pretty much only flew interceptors and named tie swarms for like my first year of playing and never almost never, rebel scum.

So was the final table timed at 60 minutes like the rest?

Yes, there was a closing time for the Hall.

Was the hall closing as time was called? Because timing the final round is against the tournament rules.

Paul

So was the final table timed at 60 minutes like the rest?

Yes, there was a closing time for the Hall.

Was the hall closing as time was called? Because timing the final round is against the tournament rules.

Paul

I believe the organization announced the Hall closed at 9pm. I'm not certain on the exact time the final game finished but I think it was at most 8.45pm. They had announced that all rounds including elimination would be 60minutes at some point because that was my understanding as well.

So was the final table timed at 60 minutes like the rest?

Yes, there was a closing time for the Hall.

Was the hall closing as time was called? Because timing the final round is against the tournament rules.

Paul

Yep, copy / paste from the latest Tournament FAQ , updated October 16 and effective October 20:

Championship Bracket Rounds

In larger tournaments, the TO may “make a cut” after a predetermined

number of rounds. The TO will announce if there is a cut before the start

of the tournament. Players are ordered by tournament points from highest

to lowest, with Margin of Victory used to eliminate ties. The top players

(determined by tournament size) then begin a new set of tournament rounds.

Only these players will be paired in subsequent rounds.

The championship bracket’s seeding is determined by ranking in the

preliminaries; the player with the best record will play against the player with

the worst record, the player with the second-best record will play against

the player with the second-worst record, and so on. Once seeded, the

championship bracket is set, not reseeded each round. Players are eliminated

from the pairings once they have lost a game. Only players who have won

continue on to the next round. The winner of the championship bracket is

the tournament champion. If a game ends in a Draw during a championship

bracket round, the winner is the player with initiative. The final game of the

championship bracket is untimed.

Full disclosure: the guy who came in 2nd is a friend of mine.

We'll have the video to look at when it comes out, but, from what I understand, Chewie was on one hull against a full B and a wounded B. It would require some amazing flying and dice rolls to pull that out. If they played until the hall closed at 9, then the game might have completed. Stopping the game at 8:45, if that's correct, is really a poor decision.

Full disclosure: the guy who came in 2nd is a friend of mine.

We'll have the video to look at when it comes out, but, from what I understand, Chewie was on one hull against a full B and a wounded B. It would require some amazing flying and dice rolls to pull that out. If they played until the hall closed at 9, then the game might have completed. Stopping the game at 8:45, if that's correct, is really a poor decision.

I agree, it's a poor decision. It sucks for Ron who may have pulled it out. As it is, it makes a good case for complete rules understanding. The folks who ran the tournament did a lot of work to get it as far as they did, and I would expect they were preparing for the tournament months before the rule change went into place. I'm happy to throw a little grace/thanks their way, and let it be a good reminder for the rest of us.

Full disclosure: I am a Canadian and was rooting for the Canadian on the final table, but ultimately just wanted to witness an epic match of two highly skilled players.

Whether the TO and other organizers were aware that the final table was to be untimed or not, I cannot say. Regardless of that, they were working with a hard stop time because of the closing hall. Therefore it was announced from the onset that all rounds would be timed at 60 minutes, including all elimination games to ensure they met that hard stop time. No one (that I am aware of) stepped up to say that the final should be untimed. Therefore all players knew (and agreed to) from the onset that even if they made it to the final table they would have to win in 60 minutes.

Perhaps it is unfortunate circumstance that the game could not be played out, but I disagree that it was a poor decision. The organizers were working within the confines granted to them and in my opinion did the best job they could.

And they really were working down to the wire. The falcon player's semi-final game ended right at the 60 minutes and he was given no more than 5 minutes to transfer tables and start playing again.

The final was an epic match, easily the most exciting game I have witnessed. Neither player slowed played when they were up on points to burn the clock. Both players flew exceptionally when they needed to. It literally came down to the final turn at the expiration of time to decide the champion. Why wouldn't you want a game for a National Championship to play out and end that way?

Full disclosure: I am a Canadian and was rooting for the Canadian on the final table, but ultimately just wanted to witness an epic match of two highly skilled players.

Whether the TO and other organizers were aware that the final table was to be untimed or not, I cannot say. Regardless of that, they were working with a hard stop time because of the closing hall. Therefore it was announced from the onset that all rounds would be timed at 60 minutes, including all elimination games to ensure they met that hard stop time. No one (that I am aware of) stepped up to say that the final should be untimed. Therefore all players knew (and agreed to) from the onset that even if they made it to the final table they would have to win in 60 minutes.

Perhaps it is unfortunate circumstance that the game could not be played out, but I disagree that it was a poor decision. The organizers were working within the confines granted to them and in my opinion did the best job they could.

And they really were working down to the wire. The falcon player's semi-final game ended right at the 60 minutes and he was given no more than 5 minutes to transfer tables and start playing again.

The final was an epic match, easily the most exciting game I have witnessed. Neither player slowed played when they were up on points to burn the clock. Both players flew exceptionally when they needed to. It literally came down to the final turn at the expiration of time to decide the champion. Why wouldn't you want a game for a National Championship to play out and end that way?

I strongly disagree. It is the TO's job to be aware of the rules for running an event. This wasn't a local store championship - this is one step below the World championships. Much like you expect the players to be aware of all the rules in a premier event such as Nationals, you expect the TO to stay aware of any rules changes.

There were other options than breaking the tournament rules. Having the championship bracket end on time is so anticlimatic - it'd be like I went to the finals at Worlds and said, "Whoops, gotta catch my flight, concede, bye!"

What time did they end the championship round? Was it as the hall was closing? I can understand if they gave them the maximum time they could, and then called time at 8:55 or so, to give them time to clean up and leave. I can't understand why you wouldn't give them the maximum amount of time you had available.

I strongly disagree. It is the TO's job to be aware of the rules for running an event. This wasn't a local store championship - this is one step below the World championships. Much like you expect the players to be aware of all the rules in a premier event such as Nationals, you expect the TO to stay aware of any rules changes.

Yes, agreed. It's just a bummer that they couldn't have had everything else cleaned up, and asked the guy with the keys to stick around for another 15-30 minutes while they finished the game. If Chewie was really down to 1 health, then they quite possibly could have finished it by 9:00 anyway. It sounds like it was more an issue of announcing ahead of time that the final table was also going to be timed, which is either in ignorance of or disregarding the rules.

For reference, the latest FAQ - see the last paragraph.

Tiers of Tournament Play

Fantasy Flight Games’ Organized Play events are broken into three tiers of

play. Each tier communicates what expectations the players, judges, and

tournament organizers should have when they are involved with a Star

Wars: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game tournament. In addition, the

competitive and premier tiers ensure that no matter where a tournament is

held, it will be run with the same standards of play and rules enforcement as

other tournaments of the same kind around the world.

Casual

Casual events stress fun and a friendly atmosphere. These events help build

local communities and are a great way for new players to experience their

favorite game without worrying whether they know every little rule. This tier

may include leagues, weekly game nights, and any event using a Star Wars:

X-Wing™ Miniatures Game variant.

Competitive

Competitive events require players to have general knowledge of a game’s

rules. While experienced players will come to these events to compete for

prizes, players should not be punished for their lack of understanding in the

finer points of Star Wars: X-Wing™ Miniatures Game rules. Players

can come to these events expecting a consistent experience from store to

store. This tier includes Store Championships and unique, one-off events such

as the X-Wing™ Wave 4 Assault at Imdaar Alpha event.

Premier

Premier events are the highest level of competition for Fantasy Flight Games

tournaments, and all players, judges, and tournament organizers involved are

held to the highest levels of conduct. Players are assumed to be familiar with

the game’s rules, as well as the latest FAQ and tournament rules, and should

expect all rules to be strictly enforced. Regional Championships, National

Championships, and World Championships are premier events.

There were other options than breaking the tournament rules. Having the championship bracket end on time is so anticlimatic - it'd be like I went to the finals at Worlds and said, "Whoops, gotta catch my flight, concede, bye!"

What time did they end the championship round? Was it as the hall was closing? I can understand if they gave them the maximum time they could, and then called time at 8:55 or so, to give them time to clean up and leave. I can't understand why you wouldn't give them the maximum amount of time you had available.

I agree that ending on time is usually anti-climatic. But interestingly in this match it set-up the most climatic ending we could have hoped for. As you mentioned Chewie was down to 1 hull point. I don't want to spoil the video of the match but one could probably imagine how the final turn went down.

I cannot say the exact time it was when the 60 minutes was called, as I do not remember. It was before 9 pm though. I expect the organizers planned some time in their schedule for clean-up after the final round, which was likely more than 5 minutes. You are probably right in assuming time was called around 8:45.

The reasons why they would not give the players the maximum amount of time available, I can only assume, are that (1) they were ignorant of the recent untimed final table rule change, which is unfortunate, and/or (2) they wanted to ensure enough time to clean-up and have everyone exit the hall by closing time, where pushing those boundaries was something they were not comfortable with.

You make a strong point that the TO's should have been aware of any rule changes, as it is their job, which I strongly agree with as well. As Juggler just pointed out, players need to be familiar with the latest tournament rules as well, but should expect all rules to be enforced. Still it is unfortunate that no player was able to (that I am aware of) bring up the untimed rule to the head judge. Bohrdumb said it well, let it be a reminder to the rest of us, players and TO's alike.

I am not trying defend the 60 minute hard stop as being made aware of the untimed rule just now makes me totally agree that time should have been extended to finish out the game, closing hall or not. But in my opinion (and my opinion has no grounds under the tournament rules) an untimed match, in this case, would have seen the Bs walk all over the Falcons, which would have been a sad final to watch. The time limit produced a lot of excitement, and as I mentioned above created the finale observers could only hope for. It actually gave both players an equal opportunity to win, whereas an untimed match probably highly favoured the Bs.

I strongly disagree.

And I agree with this statement. This is a premier tournament and all the rulings must be uphold.

On the other hand it is a choice, do you want a Nationals or not, the game is still very young. I was a bit shocked by the fact that my Nationals did not have a cut or a finals table and had a time limit. But I had fun the general organisation was great and I would not give this Nationals up over any other thing. (With the exception of Worlds and having spare cash for a flight I guess ).

Ugh, still too many Falcons at the top tables....

I think it would be best to leave the judgements about the time limit to FFG.

They're the ones with the authority and its possible (likely probable) FFG both knew in advance and agreed.

I find it hard to believe the TO's could run a National Championship without a significant amount of communication with FFG.

I haven't heard any information as to the nature of the people to own/run the hall it was held in?

Would it have been better if a Nationals Championship was unfinished at all?

Or if a Nation Championships got tossed out in the street? Or perhaps sued?

Or even just the Police called, bad press or a bad reputation is not a thing to be underestimated.

If it was as easy as getting someone to stick around the keys, I think that would of happened.

If it was a hard time limit, I have to assume that it was a HARD time limit not under the control of the TO's.

Also 15 minutes isn't a lot of time to clear a crowd out of anywhere.

@MJ: Yes! It turns out the airlines don't let you on the plane when you show up at the airport 10 minutes before your flight was to leave. I was hoping one time there would be a flight delay in my favor, but it was not to be. I ended up staying overnight and leaving the next morning.

Back to the subject at hand, I also assume the time limit was "at 9pm, we're kicking you out, regardless of what's going on." There was no way to negotiate for extra time. But still, they had options. Run the finals elsewhere, or only take the top 4 in your championship rounds, or skip championship rounds altogether and do extra swiss. I'm sure there's even more options I'm not thinking of right now. There's no reason to break the rules - ignorance is not an excuse at this tier of play.

The fact that the 2nd place player was probably 95% likely to win the match if the rules were followed just bothers me. The prize of a 1st round bye at Worlds is significant, and losing out on it due to a issue beyond the players' control is something I don't want to see happen again. There's nothing you or I can do about the Canadian Nationals now: it's between the players, TO, and FFG. But we can make sure future Premier events don't have these mistakes happen.

Paul

Really I don't think a Bye is that ever important. Just don't lose your first match! Myself I still don't understand why someone would like to skip playing a round of this game!

Neverthless, I found the organizers to be quite friendly and they did their best to keep within their time limit. It was told from the beginning that all rounds were 60 min, so it was not an unexpected finish.

By the way, if anybody thinks FFG are in contact with the organizers, forget about it. All a store gets is a phone call asking them if they want to run nationals and that's about it. Thinking about it, I would rate FFG very low in the Organized Play area. How come in other country's, the winner get a paid flight to worlds and not US and Canadian Nationals? They think Minnesota is close when you are in north america? What I think is that FFG are one of the cheapest company, charging their Tournament organizers for prize support (How much is a national kit? Regional Kits etc...) and not offering anything else. I am pretty sure that in other nationals, the flight is not provided by FFG but by their partners over there, like Edge.

It has been pointed out to me that the Oct 15th version of the tournament rules (the ones most people read when the rules were announced) had no mention that the finals should be untimed, but the Oct 16th update (the next day) added it. It explains why I didn't remember seeing the untimed finals update at first, and totally explains why the TO missed it as well. I withdraw my complaints about the TO breaking a rule: there was little chance he could have been aware of it.

Paul

So there were as many bombers in the top 8 Canadian Nationals as there were TIE fighters? I wouldn't have taken that bet a year ago lol.

I'm certain that the organizers had everything planned well in advance of the October 16th FAQ release. Expecting them to be able to change venues, change the rules of the venue, alter format, whatever, 9 days before their 60 person event is just expecting the impossible. When they set everything up, the rules allowed what they were doing. Let's cut them some slack. It is almost certain there is very little they could have done.

Honestly only FFG is to blame for issuing rules changes that go into effect so quickly. Sure, most times it is just gameplay related. But you can't expect format-related requirements to just pop into place so easily.

How exactly do you usually ensure the LAST match is untimed anyway.

Video for the Canadian Nationals final table is up:

Taking this info from TyrantNZ's battle report of the New Zealand Nationals: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/127256-new-zealand-nationals-report-from-the-national-champion/

Attendance: ~30

Winner: Lando with Nien Numb, C-3P0, Push the Limit and Falcon Title

Just a couple of minor changes to the Top 4 NZ National lists that stmack posted (as there are some minor errors in the Top 4 lists per TyrantNZ's post).

2nd Place didn't have Advanced Sensors on his shuttle (just Engine and Gunner). And both 3rd and 4th had R2-D2 on Corran (just confirming as R2 could be confused for the 1pt basic astromech, rather than the 4pt champion he is ).

I was 3rd place (Corran and 2 B's) so just thought id help get the lists right. I know Xcerus took all the lists down (as he was the T.O.) so hopefully he will be able to give the 'official' information soon too.

Thanks guys. What was the venue name?