Watch rebel assault two,

Phantoms routinely vaporize rebel ships at short range, 5 attack at r1 makes it possible to vape an xwing, just like x-wings can vape ties occasionally. The feel is rather well captured by the mechanic, as is the blinking and positional uncertainty

The Phantom only existed in a (rather goofy) video game and a few BS technical books where the data was basically made up. Its "canon" stats are questionable at best.

Thinking about this kind of stuff too much is a waste of time anyway, the original trilogy isn't even consistent with its own tech details.

Hey, RAII was awesome. Back then, anyway.

It is probably worth stressing that this is a dogfighting game, not a simulation. It doesn't even try to simulate space combat. It's not in three dimensions, inertia isn't a thing, secondary weapons are comically limited, and so on.

The flight path system is a game mechanic designed to be fun, not to realistically imitate fictional fighters to the nth degree. The rules are balanced accordingly. It doesn't matter what scale the fighters are to the board, nor how many laser cannons they have, nor what kind of laser cannon (9.3fps or whatever). They are balanced to the game to each other. The lore is flavor--which is immensely valuable--but no more. There is no reality to map onto the game in the first place, think if it as an existential product of post-modernity.

Oh no you didn't !!

I understand what you're saying, but you seem to confusing a couple of things and what the lore-lovers like me are talking about.

We're not advocating for science fiction. Star Wars is Space Opera or Space Fantasy if you will. Realism does not have to play a role. Of course, it should try not to be ridiculous either. Okay... a rubber puppet picking up spaceships with his mind... but I hope you get my drift.

Absolutely, this should be a good game with solid mechanics that keeps things fun. Also, some of the lore is patently worthless, written or programmed by talentless hacks.

But, In my view, we're stuck with a lot nonsense because of the game needs of previous games. Because a lot of the people loved those games, they want this game to bring a lot of it in. So, to use game needs as an excuse to shove the enthusiasm for the Star Wars Universe to the side is a great mistake. 'Just' flavor misses the point tremendously. This game - fabulous as it is - would be nowhere if it wasn't Star Wars.

What I mean by all this is not that there shouldn't be fabulous games with fabulous mechanics. What I'm saying is that game designers need to be careful about being cavalier with some of the schlock they try to sell us and introduce into the Star Wars Universe. That's because it will become part of the grand tapestry that is Star Wars. I'm not saying that FFG is doing that. I am amazed how they've been able to turn some previous schlock around.

But the attitude of 'the lore is flavor-...-but no more' is the spirit that leads to the Schlock Side.

At the time the Rebel Assault games were state of the art cutting edge. We'd had nothing like that before, I don't remember if the first X-Wing game had came out yet before Rebel Assault 2 or after it did. X-Wing was also a major leap forward. Full Motion Video in a game was all the rage, they captured the feeling of playing a movie. Although now they are extremely dated, but for their time it was something. I didn't have a computer until after high school (1997) and I use to sneak my copies of Rebel Assault, X-Wing and TIE Fighter in to school and play it on the PC's there when I was suppose to been studying and typing up reports lol.

The Tie Phantom also appears in the Empire at War expansion: Forces of Corruption. It puts all 5 guns to use there (though it is oddly the cheapest squad to build).

I just hate the fact that it has a heavy laser cannon all the time without paying any penalties for it, especially at range 2-3. They should have just given it 3 attack and a heavy laser cannon upgrade, that would have made more sense and followed the rules better.

If you think the problem is that it is too powerful at range 3 vs range 1, why are you suggesting a "fix" that would make it more powerful at range 3 and less powerful at range 1?

The TIE Defender needs to have AT LEAST a 13 for its attack value, 71 shields, a Tractor Beam that lets you pick the maneuver dial for every enemy ship on the board, and should come with the Emperor's Hand title which would allow it to fire all its weapons at once. The latter could be seen as slightly OP, but it will be unique in order to keep it balanced.

Anything else just wouldn't be fluffy.

As far as the range goes, the fighter portion of this game operates at a 270 to 1 scale, which means our 30 cm range ruler represents only 81 meters of distance, with 27 meters per range increment. Considering the lore provided in the X-wing novels indicated that zeroing lasers at 250 meters is optimal for dog fighting, and our range 3 being under a third of that distance, the combat range in X-wing would be extremely short ranged according to the fluff, so by your own fluff or lore based argument, the Phantom should be super powered at these ranges.

I agree the phantom should have super power at close range. I believe it has he 4 because of a surprise factor when it uncloaks at close range, and they wanted to simulate fluff of that. But the fact that it can do 4 damage all the time is really just power creep. I would have preferred something like 3 attack and on the cloak card, something like after uncloaking and activating if range 1 add +1 to your attack.

I told you how I raped(Take Advantage of) the rules at the tournament. Previously, I couldn't have done that with star wars, sure there are strong builds, but none that **** the rules the way I did. Guys hated my list and right fully so, I worry that without proper places for ships other ships will never get used. Just like my poor tie advanced which sits idle in my box. I feel my defenders will probably be in my box too. they are way more points then phantoms with upgrades and have less attack, and I honestly cannot see a reason to take them over the phantom, right now.

I really think they needed to do something to make you want to take the Defender instead of the phantom, right now I cannot see it. Besides the 3 hull and 3 shields, but with focus fire it will get hit and damaged. With the phantom and cloak, and Range 3, which you can stay at pretty well, the phantom just appears better, in almost all respects.

I agree the phantom should have super power at close range. I believe it has he 4 because of a surprise factor when it uncloaks at close range, and they wanted to simulate fluff of that. But the fact that it can do 4 damage all the time is really just power creep. I would have preferred something like 3 attack and on the cloak card, something like after uncloaking and activating if range 1 add +1 to your attack.

I told you how I raped(Take Advantage of) the rules at the tournament. Previously, I couldn't have done that with star wars, sure there are strong builds, but none that **** the rules the way I did. Guys hated my list and right fully so, I worry that without proper places for ships other ships will never get used. Just like my poor tie advanced which sits idle in my box. I feel my defenders will probably be in my box too. they are way more points then phantoms with upgrades and have less attack, and I honestly cannot see a reason to take them over the phantom, right now.

I really think they needed to do something to make you want to take the Defender instead of the phantom, right now I cannot see it. Besides the 3 hull and 3 shields, but with focus fire it will get hit and damaged. With the phantom and cloak, and Range 3, which you can stay at pretty well, the phantom just appears better, in almost all respects.

granted you're the op so changing the topic can't be considered thread highjacking, but your original post and thread title were purely on the basis of fluff, that the phantom should not have more attack dice than the defender, and since then you seem to be attacking it on a game mechanics front now, it almost just seems like you think the phantom is over powered and needs nerfed, which is an entirely separate discussion.

I agree the phantom should have super power at close range. I believe it has he 4 because of a surprise factor when it uncloaks at close range, and they wanted to simulate fluff of that. But the fact that it can do 4 damage all the time is really just power creep. I would have preferred something like 3 attack and on the cloak card, something like after uncloaking and activating if range 1 add +1 to your attack.

I told you how I raped(Take Advantage of) the rules at the tournament. Previously, I couldn't have done that with star wars, sure there are strong builds, but none that **** the rules the way I did. Guys hated my list and right fully so, I worry that without proper places for ships other ships will never get used. Just like my poor tie advanced which sits idle in my box. I feel my defenders will probably be in my box too. they are way more points then phantoms with upgrades and have less attack, and I honestly cannot see a reason to take them over the phantom, right now.

I really think they needed to do something to make you want to take the Defender instead of the phantom, right now I cannot see it. Besides the 3 hull and 3 shields, but with focus fire it will get hit and damaged. With the phantom and cloak, and Range 3, which you can stay at pretty well, the phantom just appears better, in almost all respects.

And I have been flying full Phantom lists since their full rules were known and have gotten pretty god at doing so. This last weekend I played an individual who has not fought a Phantom at all (nor even read their rules) and lost to his YBHwk list.

Neither your tournament nor my games however are accurate indication on the power of the Phantom. I could just as easily say its underpowered becuase of that one game, that would not make me right though. Hitting a cloaked Phantom at 3 while cloaked is no different from hitting any other tie (save the bomber) at 3 with a stealth device, and nobody has a problem with that.

Also, the reasons people seem to prefer the Phantom over the Defender are numerous. The Phantom brings a new unique mechanic to the game. The Defender has a very lackluster dial in an overdone attempt to balance out the White K turn. The Defender is overpriced for its pilot skills. According to MajorJugglers math, the Defender is the worst jouster in the game (even worse than the Advanced), even with its White K turn.

Well it looks like my defender and Tie advanced are now book shelf display, sigh.

Well it looks like my defender and Tie advanced are now book shelf display, sigh.

Your TIE Advanced is only *now* turning into a book shelf display??

This makes an interesting statement. One ship that it's still way too early to decide if it's any good or not, and one that's long since established as the worst ship in the game.

so much hate agaisnt the phantom cant believe that ;P. but no hate for the defender must be cause its so pricey that it never appears on the board and its crapy dial supports that action xD. well ive seen many phantoms now as opponent and on games were i was jsut spectating. mostly used echo cause that guy is just insane on its own he kills good he flies good and dies pretty good. 4 blanks seen on 3 different tables xD. yep the perfect glasscannon hits hard and dies fast if u hinder them from taking actions.

Well it looks like my defender and Tie advanced are now book shelf display, sigh.

Your TIE Advanced is only *now* turning into a book shelf display??

This makes an interesting statement. One ship that it's still way too early to decide if it's any good or not, and one that's long since established as the worst ship in the game.

Well, we have 6 wave 4 Regional tournament results, representing 200+ players, and TIE Defender and E-wing usage has been very very low. This next weekend there will be 7 more wave 4 tournaments, once we get those results in we should be a little more certain where the ship stands in the meta.

Well, we have 6 wave 4 Regional tournament results, representing 200+ players, and TIE Defender and E-wing usage has been very very low. This next weekend there will be 7 more wave 4 tournaments, once we get those results in we should be a little more certain where the ship stands in the meta.

No, we really can't. We can probably say that people don't feel comfortable taking them to major events, but really not more than that. Use at this point says plenty about player perceptions of the ship, but very little about actual capability.

It is probably worth stressing that this is a dogfighting game, not a simulation. It doesn't even try to simulate space combat. It's not in three dimensions, inertia isn't a thing, secondary weapons are comically limited, and so on.

The flight path system is a game mechanic designed to be fun, not to realistically imitate fictional fighters to the nth degree. The rules are balanced accordingly. It doesn't matter what scale the fighters are to the board, nor how many laser cannons they have, nor what kind of laser cannon (9.3fps or whatever). They are balanced to the game to each other. The lore is flavor--which is immensely valuable--but no more. There is no reality to map onto the game in the first place, think if it as an existential product of post-modernity.

Oh no you didn't !!

I understand what you're saying, but you seem to confusing a couple of things and what the lore-lovers like me are talking about.

We're not advocating for science fiction. Star Wars is Space Opera or Space Fantasy if you will. Realism does not have to play a role. Of course, it should try not to be ridiculous either. Okay... a rubber puppet picking up spaceships with his mind... but I hope you get my drift.

Absolutely, this should be a good game with solid mechanics that keeps things fun. Also, some of the lore is patently worthless, written or programmed by talentless hacks.

But, In my view, we're stuck with a lot nonsense because of the game needs of previous games. Because a lot of the people loved those games, they want this game to bring a lot of it in. So, to use game needs as an excuse to shove the enthusiasm for the Star Wars Universe to the side is a great mistake. 'Just' flavor misses the point tremendously. This game - fabulous as it is - would be nowhere if it wasn't Star Wars.

What I mean by all this is not that there shouldn't be fabulous games with fabulous mechanics. What I'm saying is that game designers need to be careful about being cavalier with some of the schlock they try to sell us and introduce into the Star Wars Universe. That's because it will become part of the grand tapestry that is Star Wars. I'm not saying that FFG is doing that. I am amazed how they've been able to turn some previous schlock around.

But the attitude of 'the lore is flavor-...-but no more' is the spirit that leads to the Schlock Side.

I think you know that we actually agree on this point, but I will try to clarify my comments.

1.) "Lore" in my post was specifically limited to the technobabble discussions about particular laser cannons, I did not mean it to encompass the broader themes of the game. Discussions of 9.3 heavy laser cannons versus 7.134520 are unimportant and don't particularly help create a fun mechanical system OR a compelling universe to pursue narratives.

2.) Conversely, "flavor" is incredibly important. While I maintain that the game would be fun if it was just the Glfrhet Fighter that had a 2/3/3/0 dial, PS1, and Focus, Evade, and Barrel Roll it is far more fun that it is an Imperial Tie Fighter. The stories that we can open up by tapping into the greater Star Wars universe are, for me, an incredibly essential part of the game play. They are, however, "just" flavor in that they don't need to be followed slavishly in ways that would be make the game unfun.

3.) To illustrate that point, it is important that the TIE Fighter is fast, cheap, and maneuverable. It should have relatively weak weapons and be utterly disposable, but dangerous in large numbers. This is all based firmly in the lore. The X-Wing needs to be slower, but have shields, more dangerous weapons, and more customization through its droids and torpedos. It does not need to be exactly 150% more powerful offensively; the game just needs to represent its superior fire power in some way. Lore in this sense is very important. A 2/1/5/3 X-Wing with a turret would be thematically flat, though it would be mechanically viable.

4.) With this in mind, it is important to introduce ships that fit into the feel of the general SW universe. I agree that just shoving things in thoughtlessly is harmful to the game and, potentially, to the broader SW Universe. The Vong invasion leaps to mind as a particularly dangerous invention that would be horrific in this game (how do you balance them? What narrative function do they serve in this model of Rebel vs. Imperial?) That said, the introductions so far--particularly the Phantom--have been astonishingly well done. This was an obscure ship from one game (incidentally, my very first Star Wars game) that has been introduced with a unique mechanic that somehow still captures exactly the feel of the Empire. It is fast, fierce, and hard hitting--but also fragile. It is obviously the product of an economically and technologically superior force that cares nothing for the lives of its pilots. This marriage of lore and mechanic, in my mind, is ideal.

So to conclude this, I agree entirely with you about the importance of the in-universe narrative elements. Let's just not get too into arguments of scale and the like. It's fun and tells a good story, not precise.

Just the hell of it did youall know the Grand Admiral that had the TIE Phantom created did so with the purpose too counter the TIE Defender if the Defender was ever used agianst the Empire?

Well really most of the fluff is from Books that I've read. Phantoms appear and disappear right next to the rebels fire and retreat. Never far away, in fact I never saw it stated that a phantom attacked far away ever. So the close range suprise yes I agree with 4 or even 5 dice, but range 3 and 2 I just don't see it.

So besides the two games and source books the TIE Phantom has been in novels?

I like that the defender is a completely different ship to fly then just a super interceptor with shields. That would have invalidated the interceptor. I haven't flown or flown against the phantom enough to form an opinion on it's brokenness yet. So give me some time

Not exactly. The enginees are very diffrent in the Interceptor. Its because of the enginees and pilot interface that the Interceptor is the GE greatest dog fighter. It probably is also the most unstable. The funny thing is the Defender very well maybe a better Interceptor than a Interceptor.

It's kind of funny in a way. When Lucas Arts made the X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter game (and it's add-on Balance of Power) they left the TIE Defender out, and the Missile Boat, because there was no way to balance them. They did eventually a few years later with X-Wing Alliance come up with a solution to balance them. They made them much weaker, brought them more in line with other fighters in the game. Although it was a shame the missile boat lost it's s.l.a.m. system in X-Wing Alliance, they said they didn't have time to code it so it was left out. Those were some fun times and fun games, wish they would start making the X-Wing and TIE series again. But until they do we got this X-Wing game to have as much fun with.

It could be worse, no one has brought up the old 10 gun TIE Interceptor debate.

Theres a 10 gun Interceptor? I also didnt know there was a Missile Boat in XWA. I disagree that the Defender was nerfed because its shield recharge rate is doubled in XWA compared to what it does in TF.

I don't think we should really take the Rebel Assault II cutscenes or gameplay as representative of in-game ability... there's a level where 3 Y-Wings get jumped by 12 squints (more in game) and they survive with nary a scratch. If I were a Y-Wing pilot getting jumped by 12 TIE Interceptors, I'd curl up into a fetal ball and beg the living Force for a swift end. Not to mention your X-wings pop TIEs like popcorn...

It's just a hysterical piece of Rebel propaganda mostly. I mean, Rebels infiltrating our facilities dressed as Stormtroopers? How absurd.

I hate to say it but cut scenes and scripted events are more canon than game play unless the game play is true to canon. In RA2 its not... As for the Y-Wing / Interceptor fight, you dont give A4 pilots enough credit. In all the storys it pretty much shows a rivalry between A4s and TIE Interceptors. Excluding two case with a S3, S3 are the Y-Wings they show are normally spanked by Interceptors. A4 have better forward fireing guns, armor, and turbines. As for the Interceptors alot of pilots got them that couldnt handle them. It should have only been used by elite pilots.

I have joked around with my friends in the past that XvsT2 should be called "Y-Wing vs TIE Interceptor (x-wing vs tie fighter 2.)"

The bracketed part whould go underneath the title.

It is probably worth stressing that this is a dogfighting game, not a simulation. It doesn't even try to simulate space combat. It's not in three dimensions, inertia isn't a thing, secondary weapons are comically limited, and so on.

As far as Imp pilots go the pilot themselves would never need to worry about inertia unless they get ionized because the all always kept in a state of zero g because of a system built into there seat. The ship is a diffrent story.

The Phantom only existed in a (rather goofy) video game and a few BS technical books where the data was basically made up. Its "canon" stats are questionable at best.

Thinking about this kind of stuff too much is a waste of time anyway, the original trilogy isn't even consistent with its own tech details.

GL had set up that only the lore was canon in the rpg books never the game mechanics.

I have to also disagree with your statement the tech books not being consistent with the movies. I havent seen anything that shows there not.

I think you know that we actually agree on this point, but I will try to clarify my comments.

1.) "Lore" in my post was specifically limited to the technobabble discussions about particular laser cannons, I did not mean it to encompass the broader themes of the game. Discussions of 9.3 heavy laser cannons versus 7.134520 are unimportant and don't particularly help create a fun mechanical system OR a compelling universe to pursue narratives.

2.) ...They are, however, "just" flavor in that they don't need to be followed slavishly in ways that would be make the game unfun.

...

So to conclude this, I agree entirely with you about the importance of the in-universe narrative elements. Let's just not get too into arguments of scale and the like. It's fun and tells a good story, not precise.

Well said.

for some reason I can't get quotes to work. The TIE Phantom has only been in two games, well three if you count this X-Wing game and never mentioned in the novels. It's been mentioned in a bunch of the guide books, and in a article in I think it was the old Star Wars Gamer magazine, or was it Star Wars Insider mag that ran the article on all the Grand Admirals of the Empire ?

If there is one thing the old XvT game taught me, it was to respect Y-Wing pilots that knew what they were doing. A-Wings, X-Wings, it didn't matter. Didn't have any trouble but there was two exceptional Y-Wing pilots on the old MSN Gaming site that were true aces and it was always a toss up who would win a match.

There isn't a 10 gun Interceptor but back in the day a lot of people tried to say in ROTJ the Interceptor's had ten guns, they have six but the chin guns are never seen fireing. Some of the books make mention the chin guns didn't work because there wasn't enough extra power for them operate but the Empire was working on a better reactor for it. The extra four guns people try to claim are the sensors on the middle of the wings.

The hull and shield stats and turning were nerfed compared to TIE Fighter, the TIE Avenger (advanced) also had some balancing done as well. I can't remember if it still had the fast shield recharge it had in TIE Fighter though. XWA made the Defender into more of a X-Wing clone, not completely but pretty close.

I would so love to see them make a new X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, it would be so much better now that everyone has some form of high speed internet. Lag was so bad back then with everyone still on dial-up connections.

OP do you realise you are using "Then" when you mean "Than" I mention it because you did it in title and text so might not be a typo. Could be an embarrassing mistake to make elsewhere in life.

This problem affects (as opposed to 'effects') a very large portion of the forum-posting population (and a large number of college students). I'm not sure going on an anti-'then' crusade is going to win you converts or friends.

But you're right.

Now, when you write realise, as opposed to realize, I assume you're British. Strangely, however, that's a recent bastardization (or bastardisation?) of the English language. Us Americans and Canadians have remained loyal to the zeee (or 'zed') which has its roots in Ancient Greek. (source)

Now, when you write realise, as opposed to realize, I assume you're British. Strangely, however, that's a recent bastardization (or bastardisation?) of the English language. Us Americans and Canadians have remained loyal to the zeee (or 'zed') which has its roots in Ancient Greek. (source)

I write 'to realise', but that's because I'm french and the translation is 'réaliser'. So I guess I'm a bastard.

for some reason I can't get quotes to work. The TIE Phantom has only been in two games, well three if you count this X-Wing game and never mentioned in the novels. It's been mentioned in a bunch of the guide books, and in a article in I think it was the old Star Wars Gamer magazine, or was it Star Wars Insider mag that ran the article on all the Grand Admirals of the Empire ?

If there is one thing the old XvT game taught me, it was to respect Y-Wing pilots that knew what they were doing. A-Wings, X-Wings, it didn't matter. Didn't have any trouble but there was two exceptional Y-Wing pilots on the old MSN Gaming site that were true aces and it was always a toss up who would win a match.

There isn't a 10 gun Interceptor but back in the day a lot of people tried to say in ROTJ the Interceptor's had ten guns, they have six but the chin guns are never seen fireing. Some of the books make mention the chin guns didn't work because there wasn't enough extra power for them operate but the Empire was working on a better reactor for it. The extra four guns people try to claim are the sensors on the middle of the wings.

The hull and shield stats and turning were nerfed compared to TIE Fighter, the TIE Avenger (advanced) also had some balancing done as well. I can't remember if it still had the fast shield recharge it had in TIE Fighter though. XWA made the Defender into more of a X-Wing clone, not completely but pretty close.

I would so love to see them make a new X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, it would be so much better now that everyone has some form of high speed internet. Lag was so bad back then with everyone still on dial-up connections.

I just hought of something. Was the Phantom in SW galaxies? If so that makes four games.

Yeah I was going to say the only versions that dont count as nonstandard mod is the four blaster armed ones with 2 majorly cut down 9.3 Laser Cannons which equals 6. The missile bin carrying type. The RGI. The last is the Star Hunter Interceptor which might maybe have 8. I just know its got the 9.3s and two monster laser cannons that are probably turbos. It only showed up once and that novel is a legend now =( Couldv been the Super Veritech of TIE Interceptors.

Avenger Squadron had super sweet moded Interceptors so tricked out the RGI would hang there heads in shame.