Ok. I know that according to fluff, the Phantom has powerful lasers, but from the stuff I have read the Defender has even more powerful lasers. Fluff wise the Phantom only had more powerful lasers because it could maneuver for better shots at point blank and use suprise. The Phantom has a 4 attack base and the Defender has a 3 Base.

I have never read anything where a phantom attacks at long range and does massive damage (4 Attack at range 3). I have read this about the defender. This just seems wrong.

I think the thought process by FF was to give it something unique, since it only has a two hull. I could see this if it didn't have shields, but it does. Maybe they should have just given it a 3 or they could have said it has a 4 all the time with no bonuses for range 1.

Or even better yet, how about a 2 at range 3, and 3 at range 2, and a 4 at range 1. That fits the fluff much better. And don't tell me they wanted to keep it simple, because they created a new rule for cloaking which is pretty complex.

Ultimately, I don't like the fact the defender has less attack then the Phantom..

Does understand why they gave more attack to the phantom the the defender all the time?

Fluffy wise the Defenders stats are closer to

Attack 4 or 5

Agility 4

Hull 6

Shields 6

With a dial that makes te TIE Interceptor look like a Y-Wing.

But to do that would cost pretty close to 100 points.

Ok. I know that according to fluff, the Phantom has powerful lasers, but from the stuff I have read the Defender has even more powerful lasers...

Ultimately, I don't like the fact the defender has less attack then the Phantom..

Does understand why they gave more attack to the phantom the the defender all the time?

The Defender has a cannon slot, which means functionally it can have firepower equal to or better than the Phantom.

Mechanically, it's almost certainly a balance issue: the Phantom is much more fragile than the Defender. It has a mechanic that lets it get around its fragility, but that mechanic also prevents approximately half of your attacks. You can get around even that with an Adv Cloaking Device, but that drastically increases the ship's cost and implies a pilot-skill bid.

The TIE Phantom allegedly has five laser cannons, while the TIE Defender has three laser cannons. That's why the Phantom has one more attack die than the Defender.

I think it's disingenuous, though, because in Rebel Assault II, you only see the Phantom fire two of its guns. You never see it fire five, if I recall correctly. The Defender should, fluff-wise, have a better attack.

But mechanic-wise, it's more unique to give the TIE Phantom the best attack in the game and make it choose between having using that attack power or having the best defense in the game.

Fluffy wise the Defenders stats are closer to

Attack 4 or 5

Agility 4

Hull 6

Shields 6

With a dial that makes te TIE Interceptor look like a Y-Wing.

But to do that would cost pretty close to 100 points.

On a side note isn't the Moldy Crow suppose to have little armor and it's only survivability it's maneuverability and agility or something like that?

That Fluff seems wrong too.

Edit: found the info on Wookiepedia, "The ships were produced without armament; they used speed and maneuverability to escape most situations."

Yes! I get the defender should have a 6 attack. But since it doesn't then I don't understand how another ship could have better at all ranges. If they wanted to give the Phantom a great attack range 1 I'm fine with that, but range 3.

Like I said, I have never read anything about a phantom doing massive damage at range 2-3 only point blank.

I think FF should do a little more research before rolling out a new ship because it's cool. They could have easily given it a 2 with a +2 bonus for range 1 attacks and people would have been fine with it. Having a 4 at range 3 in a phantom is just wrong, IMO. The thing has a heavy laser cannon without any negative effects for free

Armnament is weapons, not armor.

Attack dice isn't just raw firepower. The phantom has that higher attack for reasons of game design which I could write a huge amount on, but we're after lore here. Lorewise, I'd assume it's because of the phantom's attack method: it's not a super attack, it's a sudden attack out of nowhere: deflectors haven't been angled, it never showed up on sensors and the pilot wasn't prepared. That applies to all ranges: it's a surprise predator. In the phantom's cutscenes in Rebel Assault 2 most victims of the TIE phantoms never even saw them before they died in a flash of green light and a ball of orange fire.

Remember when the phantom's cloaked the other pilots on the table can't see it, and the combat phase lasts a few seconds at most.

I think FF should do a little more research before rolling out a new ship because it's cool. They could have easily given it a 2 with a +2 bonus for range 1 attacks and people would have been fine with it. Have a 4 at range 3 in a phantom is just wrong, IMO.

They do a hell of a lot of research and playtesting, don't think for a minute that they don't. Remember they're making a game here. They probably tried a three attack phantom and it didn't have the impact or swarm-killing ability they wanted from it.

They could have easily given it a 2 with a +2 bonus for range 1 attacks and people would have been fine with it.

People are already fine with it.

The TIE Phantom allegedly has five laser cannons, while the TIE Defender has three laser cannons. That's why the Phantom has one more attack die than the Defender.

People keep repeating this as if it's Gospel, but it's patently untrue. The number of lasers does not correlate to the number of attack dice.

According to many sources Tie Interceptors have six laser cannons, but they have not been given five attack dice. E-Wings, according to canon, have much more powerful lasers than X-Wings (and only have three on the model) but they still have just three attack die instead of the 4 (canon based) or 2 (gun count based) attack that we would expect from these methods.

FFG does consider fluff, but their consideration is much looser than some people seem to think. 2 attack die ships, excepting the Tie/A, are older/cheaper, swarm ships. 3 seems to go to dogfighters, while the Phantom's 4 helps it function as glass cannon assassin. It has a different job than the Defender and these stats reflect that. If you want to think of it by fluff, think of it as surprise attacks that you couldn't angle your deflector screens towards.

Also, if you can make your rule change work while affecting every ship in the game, then its fine.

The phantom has to follow the same rules as every ship, so you cant just say the phantom has special rules for firing range, since no other ship has special rules (Abnormal Firing Arcs are an edge case at best)

The Phantom clearly shouldn't have 4 attack dice, it's simply ridiculous LOL and turns what could have been a fun addition to the game into an abomination that should be shifted down to attack 2 or 3. As it stands its broken and no amount of claiming otherwise is going to alter that fact.

I'd imagine the phantom is just firing more because its elusive nature would allow the pilot to get off more focused shots against an unsuspecting pilot. That second where the phantom has free reign to decloak and take a half second to fire its lasers for longer than the enemy could be an attack dice. The defender is never cloaked so while firing is also dodging and weaving to evade incoming fire, which could considered the difference.

I dunno.

Yes! I get the defender should have a 6 attack. But since it doesn't then I don't understand how another ship could have better at all ranges. If they wanted to give the Phantom a great attack range 1 I'm fine with that, but range 3.

Like I said, I have never read anything about a phantom doing massive damage at range 2-3 only point blank.

I think FF should do a little more research before rolling out a new ship because it's cool. They could have easily given it a 2 with a +2 bonus for range 1 attacks and people would have been fine with it. Having a 4 at range 3 in a phantom is just wrong, IMO. The thing has a heavy laser cannon without any negative effects for free

4 Attack is better than an HLC at Range 1 (and would be even if you could use an HLC at Range 1), but worse at Range 3. And I think the "negative effect" you're looking for is found in the other 3/4 of the stat line...

The Phantom clearly shouldn't have 4 attack dice, it's simply ridiculous LOL and turns what could have been a fun addition to the game into an abomination that should be shifted down to attack 2 or 3. As it stands its broken and no amount of claiming otherwise is going to alter that fact.

Counterpoint: nuh-uh.

(I'm going to keep doing this until you start making arguments rather than assertions.)

Also, if you can make your rule change work while affecting every ship in the game, then its fine.

The phantom has to follow the same rules as every ship, so you cant just say the phantom has special rules for firing range, since no other ship has special rules (Abnormal Firing Arcs are an edge case at best)

Why does it have to affect every other ship. Cloaking doesn't. Specialty pilot rules don't. Why couldn't they have special ship rule too

I just hate the fact that it has a heavy laser cannon all the time without paying any penalties for it, especially at range 2-3. They should have just given it 3 attack and a heavy laser cannon upgrade, that would have made more sense and followed the rules better.

I just don't want this game going the Heroclix and other game routes. Power creep when it's not needed.

Cloaking is an action. Named pilot skills go in their flavour text area.

Where would you put a special ship rule on the card?

They should have just given it 3 attack and a heavy laser cannon upgrade, that would have made more sense and followed the rules better.

It follows the rules perfectly. Not sure you meant what you said there. Your argument is it doesn't fit with the lore, yes?

As for giving it an HLC, that's also giving it an Ion Cannon and an Autoblaster. Lore-wise that makes even less sense than it packing a harder punch than an unupgraded TIE defender.

The Phantom clearly shouldn't have 4 attack dice, it's simply ridiculous LOL and turns what could have been a fun addition to the game into an abomination that should be shifted down to attack 2 or 3. As it stands its broken and no amount of claiming otherwise is going to alter that fact.

Did it kill your low PS swarm?

Its job is to force a shift in the metagame. It's doing that admirably.

The TIE Phantom allegedly has five laser cannons, while the TIE Defender has three laser cannons. That's why the Phantom has one more attack die than the Defender.

I think it's disingenuous, though, because in Rebel Assault II, you only see the Phantom fire two of its guns. You never see it fire five, if I recall correctly. The Defender should, fluff-wise, have a better attack.

But mechanic-wise, it's more unique to give the TIE Phantom the best attack in the game and make it choose between having using that attack power or having the best defense in the game.

The Defender has 4 laser cannons and 2 ion cannons. FFG choose to have the Ion cannon as a seperate upgrade and you can't fire them together like the Defender could.

Also, if you can make your rule change work while affecting every ship in the game, then its fine.

The phantom has to follow the same rules as every ship, so you cant just say the phantom has special rules for firing range, since no other ship has special rules (Abnormal Firing Arcs are an edge case at best)

Why does it have to affect every other ship. Cloaking doesn't. Specialty pilot rules don't. Why couldn't they have special ship rule too

I just hate the fact that it has a heavy laser cannon all the time without paying any penalties for it, especially at range 2-3. They should have just given it 3 attack and a heavy laser cannon upgrade, that would have made more sense and followed the rules better.

I just don't want this game going the Heroclix and other game routes. Power creep when it's not needed.

I wish the E-wing had 4 attack dice. It would have been awesome and viable.

Also, if you can make your rule change work while affecting every ship in the game, then its fine.

The phantom has to follow the same rules as every ship, so you cant just say the phantom has special rules for firing range, since no other ship has special rules (Abnormal Firing Arcs are an edge case at best)

Why does it have to affect every other ship. Cloaking doesn't. Specialty pilot rules don't. Why couldn't they have special ship rule too

I just hate the fact that it has a heavy laser cannon all the time without paying any penalties for it, especially at range 2-3. They should have just given it 3 attack and a heavy laser cannon upgrade, that would have made more sense and followed the rules better.

I just don't want this game going the Heroclix and other game routes. Power creep when it's not needed.

Have you been losing to the Phantom? Don't want to change your playstyle to counter it? It is a fearsome attacker (which is what 4 dice are meant to show), but cut into its space and it gets stuck in Cloaked mode.

Power Creep would have been giving the Defender 4 dice. They didn't, so I'm not worried.

Heeeeeeeeellllll to the no! The TIE Defender had HELLA guns!

Thing is? It's the Mary-Sue of starfighters! There's no WAY they could have gotten it working with any semblance of balance with the way it was built!

Though I do still think 4 attack die is just a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle overkill. No idea why people keep ******* saying that more laser cannons equals more firepower, it seriously doesn't.

The TIE Defender has the same number and model of laser cannons that the Interceptor has, whereas the Phantom has 5 (likely the same model as the Defender and Interceptor as well), so from the technical data that is considered official they got it right on the money. The 2 big misses in my opinion are opportunity to add a beam weapon, and no boost as a standard action. The shield and agility value is a minor miss as well, but I understand that from the game design perspective.

I went to a tournament this weekend with a fun list.

--"Echo" + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire-Control System + Mercenary Copilot + Veteran Instincts (39)

--Sigma Squadron Pilot + Saboteur + Fire-Control System + Stygium Particle Accelerator (31)

---Sigma Squadron Pilot + Fire-Control System + Stygium Particle Accelerator (29)

99 points

Came in Second place! I moved as slow as possible, uncloaked and Barrel Rolled to stay at long range and played a long range game with them, When they got in close most the time they were already shot up and I could use the Sab on them.

12 dice focused on 1 ship even at range 3 with target locks, can really be annoying! I found that many people hated the 4 dice at range 3 and 2. I found it didn't feel right playing that way.

My only loss was to a Whisper squad.

Anyway, in many games this felt more like 40K, where you roll as many dice as you can, not really a dog fight. I'm worried about that for the game

It's very much in character with the appearances in game, where it vaporizes X-Wings before they even know they're in a fight.

...but when that cloaking ability is neutralised it gets swatted like a TIE fighter. You kill so many of them in the last few levels of RAII.

12 dice focused on 1 ship even at range 3 with target locks, can really be annoying! I found that many people hated the 4 dice at range 3 and 2. I found it didn't feel right playing that way.

This isn't about lore at all, is it? This is about game design really.

What sort of thing were you up against? I can think of three reasons why that did so well, skill nonwithstanding: the first is you were up against mostly Wave 3 netdecks and thus you had the hard counter. The second is the dice gods, and the third is you did what I've been telling people to do for ages and play something unconventional, and people so used to fighting the same netdecks over and over didn't know how to deal with it. Once it gets copied and disseminated to the masses its counters are found and it loses its potency.

This is something that I've occasionally posted about in other threads. I get the balance reasons for keeping primary weapons and cannons separate, but I would like to see FFG experiment with blurring the lines a little.

For instance, while the TIE Defender has fewer laser cannons than the Phantom (Defender's four to the Phantom's five), the former also has two ion cannons - meaning it can attack a target with six cannons to the Phantom's five. In TIE Fighter/Rebellion/etc., you could fire-link these systems to bring all guns to bear at once.

Unfortunately, in game terms, there is no way to represent the Defender using all of its firepower at once, since it must choose between using its primary OR secondary weapon.

I would love to see a modification or title for certain ships (the Defender for sure, possibly also the Y-Wing or B-Wing) that would allow them to fire both primary weapon (lasers) AND an ion cannon in a single combat phase. The upgrade would have to be appropriately costed, of course, and maybe even come with an additional drawback (take a stress token, use an action, whatever), but I think it would be cool.