I went to a tournament this weekend with a fun list.

--"Echo" + Advanced Cloaking Device + Fire-Control System + Mercenary Copilot + Veteran Instincts (39)

--Sigma Squadron Pilot + Saboteur + Fire-Control System + Stygium Particle Accelerator (31)

---Sigma Squadron Pilot + Fire-Control System + Stygium Particle Accelerator (29)

99 points

Came in Second place! I moved as slow as possible, uncloaked and Barrel Rolled to stay at long range and played a long range game with them, When they got in close most the time they were already shot up and I could use the Sab on them.

12 dice focused on 1 ship even at range 3 with target locks, can really be annoying! I found that many people hated the 4 dice at range 3 and 2. I found it didn't feel right playing that way.

My only loss was to a Whisper squad.

Anyway, in many games this felt more like 40K, where you roll as many dice as you can, not really a dog fight. I'm worried about that for the game

There's nothing wrong with the Defender. I played the video game and I don't ever recall it shooting 6 lasers as someone above said it could have according to some data somewhere. It has the same firepower as the Interceptor, each has 4 lasers at the wingtip points. The Defender also has 2 Ion cannons at the other 2 points but game mechanics makes it 1 cannon and separate from the 4 lasers. So the firepower is fine. It's maneuverability is supposed to be better than the Interceptor which is where the white K-turn comes in.

As for the Phantom, it's said to have more lasers. I don't recall anything other than the shape of the Phantom from playing the game it's from.

The TIE Phantom allegedly has five laser cannons, while the TIE Defender has three laser cannons. That's why the Phantom has one more attack die than the Defender.

People keep repeating this as if it's Gospel, but it's patently untrue. The number of lasers does not correlate to the number of attack dice.

.

THANK YOU.

This pops up WAY too much. I could have 8 BB guns, but a guy with AR-15 would always win.

Seems like many of you don't do any research and are just splurge posting. Although I do that myself many times.

The TIE Defender had 4 laser cannons exactly like the Tie Interceptor. 4 pylons with lasers. The extra 2 pylons on the Defender had Ion Cannons. You could shoot both the Ion cannons and the Laser cannons at the same time. That's six possible shots.
From a balance perspective, the X-Wing (with 4 laser cannons) only rolls 3 dice in this game.
If the X-Wing rolls 3 dice, and the Interceptor rolls 3 dice, then the Defender should roll 3 dice for damage from the laser cannons. If the Defender rolled an extra 2 dice that were Ion cannons, there would be screamings of ban-hammer all around, unless it cost 80 pts or something ridiculous. I understand that.
I understand that completely.

If they made the TIE Defender shoot more dice than 3 it would be even more expensive, by a factor of around 8 for each dice.
And yet I'm more disappointed with the dial and boost-less-ness than I am with the attack dice.

There's nothing wrong with the Defender. I played the video game and I don't ever recall it shooting 6 lasers as someone above said it could have according to some data somewhere. It has the same firepower as the Interceptor, each has 4 lasers at the wingtip points. The Defender also has 2 Ion cannons at the other 2 points but game mechanics makes it 1 cannon and separate from the 4 lasers. So the firepower is fine. It's maneuverability is supposed to be better than the Interceptor which is where the white K-turn comes in.

As for the Phantom, it's said to have more lasers. I don't recall anything other than the shape of the Phantom from playing the game it's from.

I think people are confusing 6 lasers with 4 lasers+2 ion cannons. In xwing alliance you could link them all so that you were firing all 6 at once. I never got to play xwing vs tie but I was a huge fan of alliance. In fact my favorite ship was the defender. I too was confused why they only gave the defender 3 dice but then thought "well the xwing only has 3 as well and the interceptor" so I'm fine with it. I'm more upset the defender has red hard turns at 1 and 2. I would happily give up the white k for green 2's and white 1 hard turns. In alliance the defender was easily the most manueverable ship the awing might have a had a leg up on it but it was close.

I'm more upset the defender has red hard turns at 1 and 2. I would happily give up the white k for green 2's and white 1 hard turns. In alliance the defender was easily the most manueverable ship the awing might have a had a leg up on it but it was close.

Then it would have basically the same dial as the Interceptor. As a longtime TIE/Alliance player I was also disappointed with the red turns but you have to balance the game somehow.

I'm more upset the defender has red hard turns at 1 and 2. I would happily give up the white k for green 2's and white 1 hard turns. In alliance the defender was easily the most manueverable ship the awing might have a had a leg up on it but it was close.

Then it would have basically the same dial as the Interceptor. As a longtime TIE/Alliance player I was also disappointed with the red turns but you have to balance the game somehow.

The TIE Phantom allegedly has five laser cannons, while the TIE Defender has three laser cannons. That's why the Phantom has one more attack die than the Defender.

People keep repeating this as if it's Gospel, but it's patently untrue. The number of lasers does not correlate to the number of attack dice.

According to many sources Tie Interceptors have six laser cannons, but they have not been given five attack dice. E-Wings, according to canon, have much more powerful lasers than X-Wings (and only have three on the model) but they still have just three attack die instead of the 4 (canon based) or 2 (gun count based) attack that we would expect from these methods.

Tie interceptors have the hardpoints for 6 cannons, but they typically only had the 4 from the wingtips (Empire being cheap and what not) as for the E-wing it is comparable to the B-wing which also only has 3 attack dice (for 3 cannons)

It probably is just purely coincidental but there are more cases where it "works" than where it doesn't so I wouldn't call it "patently" untrue, they probably base it on other considerations but the number of cannons COULD be a possible consideration and unless you are on FFGs design staff you don't know for sure and neither do I or any other forumn goer. After all any "rule" has its exceptions, look at the English language if every rule was thrown out because it has an exception we wouldn't have any grammatical rules

Long Story Short its not Gospel but neither should it be completely dismissed out of hand for speculative purposes. Also in any game fluff needs to go out the window for balance reasons if fluff was accurate Luke/Vader would be nearly unkillable because of the force and TIEs would basically be oneshotted rather than have 3 hull

The TIE Defender has the same number and model of laser cannons that the Interceptor has, whereas the Phantom has 5 (likely the same model as the Defender and Interceptor as well), so from the technical data that is considered official they got it right on the money. The 2 big misses in my opinion are opportunity to add a beam weapon, and no boost as a standard action. The shield and agility value is a minor miss as well, but I understand that from the game design perspective.

Agree x100 - and also add: the point cost on the version they released is almost certainly too high.

The TIE Defender has the same number and model of laser cannons that the Interceptor has, whereas the Phantom has 5 (likely the same model as the Defender and Interceptor as well), so from the technical data that is considered official they got it right on the money. The 2 big misses in my opinion are opportunity to add a beam weapon, and no boost as a standard action. The shield and agility value is a minor miss as well, but I understand that from the game design perspective.

Agree x100 - and also add: the point cost on the version they released is almost certainly too high.

I'd say, rather, that the dial was too conservative. It can earn back its points, in my experience, but the dial is a minor but consistent obstacle to doing so. It could have used either a white 2-turn or a couple of green banks, I think...

The TIE Defender has the same number and model of laser cannons that the Interceptor has, whereas the Phantom has 5 (likely the same model as the Defender and Interceptor as well), so from the technical data that is considered official they got it right on the money. The 2 big misses in my opinion are opportunity to add a beam weapon, and no boost as a standard action. The shield and agility value is a minor miss as well, but I understand that from the game design perspective.

Agree x100 - and also add: the point cost on the version they released is almost certainly too high.

I'd say, rather, that the dial was too conservative. It can earn back its points, in my experience, but the dial is a minor but consistent obstacle to doing so. It could have used either a white 2-turn or a couple of green banks, I think...

Green banks would make taking PTL more viable and would also make the 1 or 2 red turn less punishing. It would greatly aid the named pilots, in particular. Vessery could focus, barrel roll, and also gain a target lock from another ship. Or barrel roll and boost if you have engine upgrade.

I was surprised at how limiting it is to only have straight green maneuvers.

I've faced 3 phantoms. I've killed two.

Would've been 3 but I misplayed Carnor jax right off the board.

Ok. I know that according to fluff, the Phantom has powerful lasers, but from the stuff I have read the Defender has even more powerful lasers. Fluff wise the Phantom only had more powerful lasers because it could maneuver for better shots at point blank and use suprise. The Phantom has a 4 attack base and the Defender has a 3 Base.

I have never read anything where a phantom attacks at long range and does massive damage (4 Attack at range 3). I have read this about the defender. This just seems wrong.

I think the thought process by FF was to give it something unique, since it only has a two hull. I could see this if it didn't have shields, but it does. Maybe they should have just given it a 3 or they could have said it has a 4 all the time with no bonuses for range 1.

Or even better yet, how about a 2 at range 3, and 3 at range 2, and a 4 at range 1. That fits the fluff much better. And don't tell me they wanted to keep it simple, because they created a new rule for cloaking which is pretty complex.

Ultimately, I don't like the fact the defender has less attack then the Phantom..

Does understand why they gave more attack to the phantom the the defender all the time?

The Avenger, Defender, and Interceptor are all packing SFS L-s 9.3 Laser Cannons. They one shot vap As and Xs and blast apart Ys. We see in the cut scenes the Phantom having to make more direct hits than one on fighters to bring them down.

I could be wrong but I think because it carries shields, a hyperdrive, L.S., a cloaking device, and five laser cannons it might not have the required output to use five normal 9.3.

It follows the rules perfectly. Not sure you meant what you said there. Your argument is it doesn't fit with the lore, yes?

As for giving it an HLC, that's also giving it an Ion Cannon and an Autoblaster. Lore-wise that makes even less sense than it packing a harder punch than an unupgraded TIE defender.

Actully the 9.3 at he ver least is a heavy laser cannon. If you want to go with argument that the old tech books are legends now I will point out that in the new FFG Reb rpg book the Interceptor is listed as having heavy cannons in the lore part of its entry. If you see my post above youll see three imp fighters that share the same laser cannon.

They had to balance the Defender otherwise it would crush everything, but I think they went a little overboard. They gave it a great stat line, 3s across the board, a white K-turn, and cannon upgrade slot. But they nerfed rest of the dial, they gave the generics crappy PS, and they made the ship super expensive.

Honestly if they would have just given it boost instead of barrel roll I would have been happy. Of course both would have been nice. The ship is suppose to be as fast or even faster than the interceptor and its not represented that way. Now I have to pay another 4 points on an already pricey ship to give it speed and slightly better maneuverability.

If you compare a Delta Defender to a Rookie X-wing I don't think 9 points is made up for in the gaining of 1 shield, 1 agility, and a white K turn. Considering the fact that you lose 1 PS, your 2 turn is red, and astromech vs. Cannon upgrade.

I'll weight in on the 'fluffy' part of this argument.

For starters, if you're calling it fluff, and then turning it into an adjective which makes the word sound even more pejorative, then it sounds to me like the background setting / story elements probably don't matter much to you to begin with, so why worry? [/pedantic tone]

I say that not because I question your loyalty to Star Wars (unless we're just going to have friendly banter, then I'll do it all day long ), but because I care about background setting/story elements a great deal. That's why I call it 'lore' rather than fluff.

So, here's my problem with the Phantom/Defender; coming from the video games they were over-the-top in my opinion. Because they were either the next sooper-dooper ship you could fly, or the great new threat to the galaxy that had to be destroyed, the creators of those video games had to make them really significant. So, it wasn't quite like the Sun Crusher, but they were headed in that general direction compared to the state of technology that we are familiar with in the SWU.

FFG has to keep these things within bounds in order to make the game playable. From my lore-loving point of view, I think that's all for the better. The more you go more sooper-dooper, the more you have to ever go more sooper-sooper-dooper in order to capture any attention. That invites power creep in the game and pizzazz inflation in the drama.

Because of this, I was pretty annoyed when I first heard about the Defender and the Phantom. I felt like the power creep had arrived and the pizzazz inflation had begun. Now that I have the outlines of a few TIE Phantoms on the side of my TIE/ln cockpit, I'm reassured that FFG knows what it's doing.

Well really most of the fluff is from Books that I've read. Phantoms appear and disappear right next to the rebels fire and retreat. Never far away, in fact I never saw it stated that a phantom attacked far away ever. So the close range suprise yes I agree with 4 or even 5 dice, but range 3 and 2 I just don't see it.

Just because it's not been seen doesn't mean it's not possible. You're suggesting they craft a design exception just because you don't have proof. Isn't it easier to do as they've done and keep the statline convention consistent?

I like that the defender is a completely different ship to fly then just a super interceptor with shields. That would have invalidated the interceptor. I haven't flown or flown against the phantom enough to form an opinion on it's brokenness yet. So give me some time

It's kind of funny in a way. When Lucas Arts made the X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter game (and it's add-on Balance of Power) they left the TIE Defender out, and the Missile Boat, because there was no way to balance them. They did eventually a few years later with X-Wing Alliance come up with a solution to balance them. They made them much weaker, brought them more in line with other fighters in the game. Although it was a shame the missile boat lost it's s.l.a.m. system in X-Wing Alliance, they said they didn't have time to code it so it was left out. Those were some fun times and fun games, wish they would start making the X-Wing and TIE series again. But until they do we got this X-Wing game to have as much fun with.

It could be worse, no one has brought up the old 10 gun TIE Interceptor debate.

Well really most of the fluff is from Books that I've read. Phantoms appear and disappear right next to the rebels fire and retreat. Never far away, in fact I never saw it stated that a phantom attacked far away ever. So the close range suprise yes I agree with 4 or even 5 dice, but range 3 and 2 I just don't see it.

Books with TIE phantoms in them? I'm assuming these are RPG sourcebooks and things.

I never saw it stated that a phantom attacked far away ever.

Did it ever say that they didn't? Range 3 is still a fairly short range, just not point blank. These books aren't tailored to X-wing, when they say long range they mean the heavy turbolasers on ISDs.

Besides, the B-wings that die at the start of Rebel Assault II (the game the phantom comes from and is the central plot point of) are killed from a range.

I don't think we should really take the Rebel Assault II cutscenes or gameplay as representative of in-game ability... there's a level where 3 Y-Wings get jumped by 12 squints (more in game) and they survive with nary a scratch. If I were a Y-Wing pilot getting jumped by 12 TIE Interceptors, I'd curl up into a fetal ball and beg the living Force for a swift end. Not to mention your X-wings pop TIEs like popcorn...

It's just a hysterical piece of Rebel propaganda mostly. I mean, Rebels infiltrating our facilities dressed as Stormtroopers? How absurd.

Well really most of the fluff is from Books that I've read. Phantoms appear and disappear right next to the rebels fire and retreat. Never far away, in fact I never saw it stated that a phantom attacked far away ever. So the close range suprise yes I agree with 4 or even 5 dice, but range 3 and 2 I just don't see it.

So range three is about what, 9 to 10 ship lengths?

That's not really all that far away is it?

Well really most of the fluff is from Books that I've read. Phantoms appear and disappear right next to the rebels fire and retreat. Never far away, in fact I never saw it stated that a phantom attacked far away ever. So the close range suprise yes I agree with 4 or even 5 dice, but range 3 and 2 I just don't see it.

So range three is about what, 9 to 10 ship lengths?

That's not really all that far away is it?

While the ships are in scale with EACH OTHER, they are not to scale with the BATTLEFIELD. The actual ships are much smaller than their miniature represents, as is typically true of war games.

It is probably worth stressing that this is a dogfighting game, not a simulation. It doesn't even try to simulate space combat. It's not in three dimensions, inertia isn't a thing, secondary weapons are comically limited, and so on.

The flight path system is a game mechanic designed to be fun, not to realistically imitate fictional fighters to the nth degree. The rules are balanced accordingly. It doesn't matter what scale the fighters are to the board, nor how many laser cannons they have, nor what kind of laser cannon (9.3fps or whatever). They are balanced to the game to each other. The lore is flavor--which is immensely valuable--but no more. There is no reality to map onto the game in the first place, think if it as an existential product of post-modernity.