In a casual event or environment it may be expected that the rules be bent or broken in any number of instances.

As such you can't answer a rules question for that environment as you have no way of knowing what rules they will be actually playing with.

This is exactly the thing I'm trying to push back against.

Under the Casual play rules, including for tournaments, nothing the OP's opponent did broke or even bent any rules. It was all perfectly legal.

Whether we like it or not (and I certainly don't, to be honest) we have two different standards for certain actions. It can be hard to keep that clear and separate, but it's important to do so, and to do so correctly. A lot of the framing here is "It's OK to bend the rules in casual play" which is simply wrong. Taking back a barrel roll isn't necessarily illegal, and going to a tournament doesn't automatically mean competitive rules will be in place.

It can be hard for some of us who always play the competitive rules, even in casual play, to remember that it's perfectly legal to do that sort of thing, and even my response was poorly framed. But I think we need to keep it in mind, and not tell people they're cheating if they're not.

You are correct in the example given in this thread, but the example given in this thread isn't the only way in which rules interpretation/enforcement can be expected to differ in a Casual level event.

The definition of Casual level events is so completely open ended that outside of the TO of a specific event no third party would be able to tell you what the expectations are in regards to rules enforcement/interpretation. Even the proceeding Tiers of Tournament section specifies that Competitive and Premier level events are expected to run to the same standard of play and rules enforcements no matter where they are held, something that Casual level events aren't held to. I'm not quite sure why FFG chose to delineate between Competitive and Premier if the expectation is the both to be run to the same standard, but FFG likes to be confusing.

Still my point being as Casual play is left completely open ended in regards to the level of rules enforcement or interpretation there is no way for anyone but the TO of any specific event to actually answer a rules question in that specific environment because only the TO knows the answer. Casual level events allows the goal posts to be shifted where ever, which is fine, but makes it so the Rules Forum can't really answer whether X,Y or Z is legal or illegal. As Sergovan said the Rules Forum can't help but answer to the Competitive/Premier level, but it isn't because we don't want to be wrong, it's because those are the only levels expected to have a unified universal interpretation and enforcement of the rules/standards.

"

Still my point being as Casual play is left completely open ended in regards to the level of rules enforcement or interpretation there is no way for anyone but the TO of any specific event to actually answer a rules question in that specific environment because only the TO knows the answer.

This is overstating things pretty dramatically, I think. Even if local areas may deviate to some extent, they're all still playing from the same baseline. Could a local group choose to house rule something, or a TO to tweak things as they will? Sure. But that doesn't mean the rules and FAQ are meaningless. They're still the core, base rules, and that's a perfectly valid basis for providing answers even in a casual environment.

You make it sound like it's some wild west of craziness out there, but apart from a few VERY isolated stories of TO's making things up as they will, we have pretty much zero evidence to support that.

Casual level events allows the goal posts to be shifted where ever, which is fine, but makes it so the Rules Forum can't really answer whether X,Y or Z is legal or illegal.

That's not true really. Even at a casual event you're still expected to play by the rules from the core set. It's not like you can just make up stuff as you go along. You can't have a X-Wing do a barrel roll, or put 3 shields on a Tie Interceptor.

You can't have a X-Wing do a barrel roll

Oh, so you ban Expert Handling?? This is exactly the sort of unpredictable insanity Scottie's talking about!!

Sorry... someone had to do it

Sorry... someone had to do it

No problem Guess I should of picked something better...

Most will probably disagree it seems but I think casual play is just an excuse to not follow the rules as they were intended.

If you barrel rolled and your movement put you in a bad position, is that really a big deal in a casual game. The fact that you wanted to back track to get a better position seems to be trying to get a competitive edge over your opponent.

Honestly I feel that getting into the habit of the competitive rule set makes the game much more enjoyable for both parties.

Play the competitive ruleset with a casual attitude. That's how our group tends to play.

Promoting casual play really leads to sloppy players.

This especially applies to pick up games where you do not know what your opponent is like. If you play to the competitive ruleset, there can be no argument.

I'll reiterate that it's all about attitude.

Still my point being as Casual play is left completely open ended in regards to the level of rules enforcement or interpretation there is no way for anyone but the TO of any specific event to actually answer a rules question in that specific environment because only the TO knows the answer.

This is overstating things pretty dramatically, I think. Even if local areas may deviate to some extent, they're all still playing from the same baseline. Could a local group choose to house rule something, or a TO to tweak things as they will? Sure. But that doesn't mean the rules and FAQ are meaningless. They're still the core, base rules, and that's a perfectly valid basis for providing answers even in a casual environment.

You make it sound like it's some wild west of craziness out there, but apart from a few VERY isolated stories of TO's making things up as they will, we have pretty much zero evidence to support that.

I'm not talking about situation where TOs just make stuff up. There are a number of commonly brought up issues that see varying level of enforcement depending not only level of event (Casual vs Competitive/Premier) but amongst events of a similar level.

You have the strictness in which non-maneuver movements are judged like what we are talking about here, but you'll also see missed opportunities governed to different degrees. When certain measurements can be taken gets brought up often, and you'll see that enforced to varying degrees as well. That's certainly one that often gets played in direct contrast to the rules depending on venue/TO at casual levels of play.

Even in the example we have in this thread the answer isn't as simple as "In competitive/premier level events; no. In casual level event; yes". A casual level event could allow the more relaxed enforcement of those rules, but it could also go with the stricter variant, or somewhere in between. So the answer becomes "In casual level events; go ask the TO".

Most will probably disagree it seems but I think casual play is just an excuse to not follow the rules as they were intended.

Most will indeed. "Most", in this case, includes the rules and the developers themselves. Thanks for making a good case for why I hate claims of "rules as intended". You're provably wrong about the intent of the rules, because it's quite thoroughly clarified without ambiguity at this point.

If anything, the historical evolution points pretty convincingly to the original intent of the rules being the more casual playstyle which would allow free and unlimited premeasuring. The move towards more restrictive checks came later, and slowly, as new developers came on board and X-wing evolved a more competitive scene. Every step has pointed very strongly to FFG attempting to maintain that casual playstyle as a valid option for players.

The only "intent" here is yours, not the developers.

Harassing and insulting players for following the rules of the game perfectly well is crude and wrong. Playing according to the casual rules is not "sloppy" - it's perfectly legal gameplay whether you happen to like it or not.

The move towards more restrictive checks came later, and slowly, as new developers came on board and X-wing evolved a more competitive scene.

In some respect I don't know if it had to do with new developers input as much as the realization that in actual competitive play allowing every permutation of actions to be checked before any action is actually undertaken is likely slightly overly advantageous and untenibly time-consuming to have as a general rule.

"Oh so you are thinking of maybe boasting? Let me go grab a soda from across the shopping plaza."

If someone wanted to say "You already flipped your dial so that means you can't decloak" they might be technically correct, but I don't know many (any, honestly) X-wing players who'd be enough of a jerk to lock you into that sort of meaningless minutiae. If it matters, sure, fine, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to that level for something that literally does not matter at all.

*cough I met a guy at regionals, who placed top 16 in worlds, that was a stick in the mud. (Watched him humiliate a guy for just flipping all his dials over at the start of turn 1.)

If someone wanted to say "You already flipped your dial so that means you can't decloak" they might be technically correct, but I don't know many (any, honestly) X-wing players who'd be enough of a jerk to lock you into that sort of meaningless minutiae. If it matters, sure, fine, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone go to that level for something that literally does not matter at all.

*cough I met a guy at regionals, who placed top 16 in worlds, that was a stick in the mud. (Watched him humiliate a guy for just flipping all his dials over at the start of turn 1.)

In what way could one even be made to be humiliated in that case?

Who said anything about harassing and insulting people? Man you are aggressive in your responses.

So the developers didn't plan for action step after the manoeuvre?

So the developers planned to allow people to map out all combos and then pick the most optimal? In a game that reflects fast paced action.

Also I haven't met a single person who purposely plays towards the casual rules so that is reflected in my response.

Who said anything about harassing and insulting people? Man you are aggressive in your responses.

So the developers didn't plan for action step after the manoeuvre?

So the developers planned to allow people to map out all combos and then pick the most optimal? In a game that reflects fast paced action.

Also I haven't met a single person who purposely plays towards the casual rules so that is reflected in my response.

WTF does the timing of the action step have to do with anything?

Given that the rules allow you to measure things like barrel roll at will, including multiple options before committing to one, and they have gone to great lengths to keep that option open through multiple revisions, I'd say that yes, they did plan it. Do you actually have any evidence that they didn't' mean for it to work that way?

I don't play to the casual rules either. Nor does anyone I play with regularly. That does not make them any less valid, and it certainly doesn't make your declaration of intent the least bit valid.

Well we play pretty casual but I'll keep it in mind.

Keep in mind that the other responses that you are reading are really addressing competitive play. In friendly games (meaning non-tournament), I will allow my opponents all kinds of mulligans such as taking back boosts/barrel rolls or placing a token on a ship later in the round when they forgot to take an action.

Most of the contributors to these forums are tournament players, and that tends to be all that we talk about. In friendly games, you can definitely take some liberties with the rigidity of the competitive rules.

This. In the casual games at my store, we always fly according to the tournament rules. However, in casual games I'm more than willing to let newer players try stuff out. Casual games for me is all about learning: learning new rules/ships, getting better at maneuvering, training myself to not forget things like Fire-Control Systems and Swarm Tactics, learning better action economy management. Therefore, while I rarely take "gimmies" in my favor (if I screw up, that's my problem, and I learn from it), I also rarely refuse them to an opponent in a casual game.

Hell, I've even been known to give them a gimmie even in Tournaments, if my opponent is a newer player. Case in point, an event I went to last Saturday had me facing a guy with Whisper + VI + ACD. He forgot to declare that he was re-cloaking after his attack, but when I declared an attack against Whisper later in the round, he realized he forgot to declare the action. I gave it to him. Whisper lived. Oh well.

One must be careful about giving gimmies though...it sets a dangerous precedent for people who use them constantly. A newer player, used to being offered and taking gimmies, may enter an event operating under the idea that he'll be granted these favors. I've seen it happen before, and I've played these people before. I'm not required to let you correct an error, and it's not bad sportsmanship if I refuse to grant you it. It's an official event, not casual, and everyone involved is expected to know the game. If you screw up, and it hurts you, be honest with yourself and with your opponent and make the best of it.

Indeed. Why is there a push for two different styles of play based on whether you're a "casual" player or a "tourney" player? As far as I can see, tournament play is merely playing by the rules. There's nothing scarey going on. It's not suddenly more complex. There is nothing wrong with getting into the habit declaring which direction you're going to boost or barrel roll and committing to it, instead of just declaring a boost or barrel roll then measuring every possible option or direction.

My group plays casual games under the tournament rules and we all have fun. By playing to the tournament rules, you will find it will tighten up your game and make you a better player, because you're playing the game PROPERLY!

You shouldn't allow "gimmies" or "take backs" as it promotes a precedence of poor play. Mistakes will be made, but instead of taking things back, identify the mistake and try and ensure it doesn't happen again. As Caelenvasius stated, when he gave Whisper the forgotten action, Whisper lived. He should have shot him to bits and said "you should have recloaked after your attack". If you offer advice as a learning experience, players will get better. The opponent will learn from that and be sure to do it next time.

Plan carefully, and suffer the consequences of getting it wrong or reap the rewards of getting it right. Either way, just play by the rules.