Hi folks,

I am wondering if someone has the same problem like me.

I've played DH for the first time last weekend and after a couple of hours my players got very frustrated. They rolled skill tests and because the typical characteristic is 30-40% they failed very often. In the rules the table says (Easy +30% to Very hard -30%). So even for an easy task the chance for an average human characteristic (26-35%) is only maximal 60%. Seems to me wrong. Should be more like 80-90%.

So, we will raise the characteristics in our next gaming evening by 15-20%, but I would like to discuss other options.

So, I would be happy if some of you have some ideas or comments.

SGB.

You are forgetting that by the max level, you can have +20 from the skill, and +20 to your stat, which is a 100% chance.

Its assumed if you require a roll, its something you can fail. A new player doing an easy task will have a 30-40% chance to fail. But thats the thing, it might not be a failure for all things, it just means that you didnt get it done in that round, so try again next time. If its something so easy it should have a 90% success rate, just make it automatic. Especially outside of combat.

Like Varius said, only have them roll when it matters. Beyond that, modifiers are your and your players friend!

As a general rule of thumb, I will give the character a +10 for anything they can think of or employ that would conceivably help there situation including a prayer to the Emperor (and the player has to actually say the prayer). For every redundant skill they have that can help them in the task, they will also get another +10. Trying to get into a secure building with a high tech security system? Well, security would be the skill, but if they have Tech-Use, they can get a +10 for it, another +10 for Common Lore (Tech), if the building is run and guarded by a local gang, Common Lore (underworld) will give another +10 (after all, they'd be that much more familiar with how the gang would set up their security, etc), and the list can just go on and on depending how creative the player is.

Don't forget about Assistance! If two characters have the same skill, one can assist the other giving the character a 10. I will also extend this to redundant skills that can still be argued to help. One character with tech-Use helping another with Security to get by a high tech security system, etc.

The right equipment for the right job can also make all the difference. Go over the equipment section and you'll notice a lot of the tools offer bonuses to certain sills and tasks! It doesn't have to end there. Come up with your own odd gizmos that can be used to help a skill check. heck, you could even give a +10 to Fel checks if the character is wearing best quality clothing ;-)

Reward creative thinking with bonuses!

And finally, not all checks are binary pass fail. Don't set them up as such. If someone is trying to pick a lock, it's a given that, eventually, he will pick that lock...but how long will it take. Perhaps it would take 10 minutes to pick a lock, but each DoS scored will reduce the time by 2 minutes and each DoF will add 2 minutes. You also know that a guard will be coming around in 10 minuets time... Now, in that situation, they may fail, and fail big, but when the guard comes around, they may be able to succeed in a concealment check 9opposed to the guards search if he's suspicious or awareness if not). Once passed, they can get back to work on that lock... of course, he'll be back around in another 10 minuets. Likewise, failure might not mean failing at the task, but succeeding with unforeseen and unpleasant side effects. in the lock picking situation, maybe there is no guard, but failure results in leaving obvious evidence of their tampering behind, breaks the lock or their tools after the lock pops, or alerts someone inside who's coming to investigate the sounds at about the time they get the door open...

i think the characteristics is wary god if you think about it. You can't be god to anything so take some of them max from the start and then try only to use them. Think about a Assasin whit Ag 35 and Int 40 the Assasin is better to lore, medicae and tech-use but not security (Int skils), shadowing and slight of hands (Ag skils) so it is also how you make you carekter, an all around whit the same characteristics all the way (booooooring) or the funny where it is all difrent numbers

I've been playing with my group for a while now and I can assure you it's now it's not an issue.

Most out of combat type skills have appropriate devices which give enough of bonus that even people who aren't specialised (i.e. not outstanding stats or above basic skill level) have a really quite high chance of succeeding.

Plus the assistance rules are a big double bonus (+10 per person and a free success).

I would say that you should be generous with the bonuses to the rolls and be careful not to use the basic skills rule where the basic stat seems appropriate.

Well, I agree with the OP, and in my campaign I use the special rules in the IH for awareness, on all skills. In other words, untrained users of basic skills roll their straight characteristic, while trained users of basic or advanced skills roll their characteristic plus 20. I find this works pretty well.

IMO there is no justification for describing a task as "easy" if a trained character with a decent starting characteristic (say 40) still has a 30% chance of failure. I know that in many cases you don't need to roll, but I still object to the idea that an easy roll is so easy to fail. I think someone mentioned that an experienced character can have higher characteristics and skill masteries, so they have a 100% success rate. Good! That is what should happen when you are highly experienced. They will still have a substantial failure rate on high difficulties.

In my system, a trained character with an average starting characteristic will pass challenging tests 50% of the time. I think that's about right.

Thanks for all the imput! I had some nice discussions with my players about the "problem" and all your comments.

We will try to NOT enhance the characteristiics (like I posted before) but handle difficulty grades cautiously.

Like Varius said: It is irritating to have a difficult rating of "easy" but what it actually means is easy for trained and expierenced characters. IMO an easy task (in the linguistical usage) should not be rolled at all if a character has the appropriate skill.

SGB

I think the system is pretty realistic. As others have mentioned, only have them roll when it matters.

I think the combat system is one of the most realistic systems I’ve experienced and I’ve played more RPG’s than I can count.

A weapon that you’re firing a three-round burst at half range gets, if I recall correctly, a +10% to hit because of the burst and +10% to hit because or range. For most starting characters that’s gonna be in the neighborhood of 50%... which is entirely accurate.

Anyone who’s ever shot a pistol for the very first time can attest to the fact that hitting a STATIONARY man-sized target in a vital area from even 20 feet away is much more difficult than it’s depicted in the movies. With training it becomes much easier and – as the PC’s acquire XP and advance their characters, that represents training

incarna said:

To clarify, I don't give the bonuses on combat, only to skill rolls. I am fairly happy with the combat system.

SGB said:

Hi!

As someone quite clever once stated, as one of the Cardinal Rules for Gming:

"Roll the dice or say yes"

Say yes to everything you think is not that important or doesn't invoke conflict in the game... for the rest, (the important stuff) roll the dice.

L

W?

Graver said:

I've roleplayed a lot but this will be my first Dark Heresy campaign and I too have been concerned about the low success chance. Reading this (awesome) post has allayed my fears a lot, encouraging your players to think is never a bad idea!

the "Default Check" should be a +10 when skilled; roughly 40% average. In their specialty, they should be 50% for most checks...

A +0 check is challenging... something that should be hard. Stuff that they should be making is done at +30...60%-80% skilled

The other thing...
if +30% seems too small a bonus, skip the roll, just say yes, and move on.
If -30% seems too small a penalty, skip the roll, just say no, and move on.

aramis said:

See, I disagree with this. A character with a low stat, even with training, could well have only a 50% chance of success at +30. I can't bring myself to say that anything better than 50/50 must be automatic success. I also can't stomach the idea that an "easy" test could have such a high failure rate.

I'm all for giving auto-success, but jumping from a large chance of failure (and anything over 20% is large, in my book) to 100% success seems wrong to me.

If it's an easy test, but they have a low stat/skill then they suck at that skill even though they are trained in the skill. Really, not every character will be the same. Despite being trained in a skill, you can still suck at it. It happens all the time.

For example, you can take classes in French. You take a year and learn the basics of speaking French, knowing a few words and phrases and basic grammar. You are "trained" in French. You can pretty much speak and understand French better than someone who has never had a class in French. However, it still doesn't come as naturally or as easily to you as it does to some of your other fellow students. (ie, your Int is lower than theirs). Also, even though you are Trained, you won't necessarily be able to understand everything that someone says in French. In fact, it is quite possible you will only be able to understand half of what they say, relying on context to fill in the rest of the conversation. That's assuming you are talking with someone who is speaking French clearly. If you were listening to a native Parisian, for example, who was speaking quickly and to another Parisian, you might very well barely understand one word in ten, despite being "trained" in French.

Trained does not equal Expert. It means you've been formally taught (or otherwise learned) the basics of the skill. Keep in mind, most skills aren't even Basic (ie at half the statistic), making even a 20% chance much better than a 0% chance.

dvang said:

Yes, indeed. Though of course, soeone with a decent stat (say 40) who has +10 mastery probably should be considered expert, and still (officially, RAW) fails 20% of the time on an "easy" task.

But my main objection is to the idea that anything above +30 must be auto-success.

(Incidentally, since this thread started I have got hold of the FFG version of Dark Heresy (my own copy is the BL version), which says you can combine bonuses up to +60. +60 seems like a pretty good definition of "easy" to me).

Cardinalsin said:

If i remember correctly, the book specifically says the +60/-60 is for combat modifiers only....not that you cant choose to use them in other situations

Also remember that for most non-combat skills a "failed" roll isn't necessarily an actual failure to accomplish the task. It is a measure of the TIME it takes to complete the task. Take a Security roll to open a door.

A success (with no degrees) could represent 2 minutes to get the door open.

A failure (with no degrees) could mean 10 minutes to get the door open.

A failure (with 1 degree) could mean 30 minutes to get the door open

A failure (with 2 degrees) could mean 1 hour to get the door open

... and so on.

Thus an expert with a 60 skill (and bonuses) that rolls a 65 and fails takes 10 minutes to unlock the door. Whereas a less skilled individual with a 40 skill total might have to spend an hour before they unlocked the door. Both unlock the door in the end (assuming the less-skilled person didn't give up), but the degree of failure determines the time penalty. In this situation, the more skilled character has a very large advantage because they're more likely to minimize the time taken to accomplish the task. Sometimes, the available time isn't enough for the job to complete. The trash compactor in Star Wars, for example. Shutting it down when there is only a few minutes before you are crushed probably requires a tech-use roll. A failed roll might not allow enough time to stop the compactor before the character is squished. If the compactor was slow, though, and the characters had, say, an hour before being crushed, a 'failed' roll might still have time to stop the compactor. Still, it took 45 minutes and things got awfully uncomfortable ... besides giving time for a detatchment of Stormtroopers to set up outside the door.