Look at any number of existing games and ask yourself which would be harder to balance, a new unit in an existing faction or a completely new faction? This could apply to any polarized game, like RPGs or RTSs.

When you're talking about incremental changes such as we see in X-Wing - with ship statistics, pilot abilities, upgrades and so on all adding to the overall effectiveness of your force - adding a new unit into an existing faction can be much harder to balance. 2 x 2 = 4, 4 x 4 =16, 16 x 16 = 256... and so on. The more ships you add to a faction, the more options you open up within that faction, and the more possibilities you need to take into account.

I'd argue that adding the Z-95 to the Rebel fleet has changed the game a hell of a lot more than adding the Z-95 to an entirely new faction would have. The Z-95 has changed the way the Rebel forces can be played on a fundamental level, if it was introduced as part of a new faction it's arrival wouldn't have changed the way Rebel lists were played at all.

I think we're in danger of confusing what it means to be unbalanced with a shift in the meta, and to that end your observations about the Z-95 are too narrow. What if this theoretical new faction consisted of all of the wave 4 ships, could you make an accurate assessment of how that would impact the game?

I will have to confess that I'm not as well versed as you are in these other games. Can you give me examples where the imbalance happened for number-of-factions reasons, rather than power-creep-in-pursuit-of-quick-profits reasons?

Is that a subtle allusion to 40K? I'm not too sure that I see those things as being mutually exclusive. FFG is a brilliant company, and they do right by us all the time, but they're far from infallible. I feel like we're visiting all the old familiar places...

God dammit, who the hell started this third faction mess again?

You're right - but that would be a conscious marketing choice by FFG.

Does it matter why or who? The point is that powercreep is pretty common in other games. FFG has so far thankfully avoided it. But a 3rd faction is a really good place to see it start, because they have to get people to buy into a whole new faction, which isn't as easy as getting them to buy 2 more ships for a faction they already play.

Point is, that powercreep for a new faction isn't something you can simply dismiss, like FTS Gecko did by calling it an assumption.

You're right - but that would be a conscious marketing choice by FFG.

Does it matter why or who? The point is that powercreep is pretty common in other games. FFG has so far thankfully avoided it. But a 3rd faction is a really good place to see it start, because they have to get people to buy into a whole new faction, which isn't as easy as getting them to buy 2 more ships for a faction they already play.

Point is, that powercreep for a new faction isn't something you can simply dismiss, like FTS Gecko did by calling it an assumption.

Power creep is certainly a risk of introducing a third faction, but I think WAAAGH's error is in taking it as--more or less, and feel free to correct me if this is a misreading--a given, because the balancing required is so complex.

I don't think it's too complex, and I think FTS Gecko is doing a good job of laying out the reasons why balancing a new faction could actually be easier than adding new ships to existing factions.

Hmm, I don't know about given so much as I have my misgivings. It goes back to the whole "if it's not broke..." etcetera etcetera and ad nauseum. Again, FFG is a good company, and I will admit (not too grudgingly) that a third faction could possibly turn out to be a marvelous new addition to the game. But what if it doesn't?

Here's a question: is there enough material to fully flesh out a specific third faction, like Black Sun? People have forwarded reasons for not adding additional ships, like the bounty hunters, to existing factions. Let's assume that this would then also hold true for our theoretical third faction. Going forward, would a third faction be able to keep pace with the existing ones, or would it eventually hit a ceiling and be left underrepresented, like previous iterations of the Necrons, or some of the factions in Attack Wing?

Ugh, just comparing X-Wing to those two other games just sent a shiver down my back.

Well, there are 2 kinds of power creep, deliberate and accidental.

New ships for a new faction are really no more likely to lead to accidental power creep than the same number of new ships for existing factions. Possibly a little less because of the reduced number of card interactions.

Deliberate power creep such as Vanor is suggesting is a trickier issue, but it really comes down to how much trust you have in the company. If GW were to introduce a new army for 40k, you could not convince me that it wasn't a money grab and I would expect it to be horribly unbalanced. But if you think the company is sufficiently unprofessional to deliberately overpower ships for a new faction, why don't you think they will do the same for upcoming releases in existing factions?

I said in the last thread on this topic, from the design, development and manufacturing end of things, a new faction requires virtually nothing extra. The big impact it gas is on the marketing and end user side of the game.

Oh, and for those who want to review, here is the last argument on this topic, from only 2 weeks ago

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108625-time-for-third-faction/?hl=%2Btime+%2Bthird+%2Bfaction

A Black Sun faction should have a new flavor, not necessarily power creep But it should play differently than Imperial and Rebel.

I think it's been discussed before how a 3rd faction can play.

For example, with Huge ships, they added the Energy mechanic, among other things.

A Black Sun faction should have a new flavor, not necessarily power creep But it should play differently than Imperial and Rebel.

I think it's been discussed before how a 3rd faction can play.

Here is what I said on that subject in the previous thread.

Thinking about it, here are a couple ways I thought of that a fringe faction could be unique

Greater emphasis on large ships. Yeah, they used Y's and Headhunters, but the primary ship for most fringers would be a large ship

Most fringer ships are heavily modified, so give them crappy primary attacks and assorted upgrades and pilot abilities to make them focus on secondary weapons (excellent opportunity to fix so e of what is wrong with secondaries)

I, personally, would love to see fringer ships that can take multiple modifications by default, but just having lots of upgrade icons and reasons to use them would be OK.

Pilot abilities or rules that encouraged taking different kinds of ships, sort of an anti-swarm/anti-spam thing, so that their squads look makeshift.

Point is, that power creep for a new faction isn't something you can simply dismiss, like FTS Gecko did by calling it an assumption.

Whoa, whoa whoa there laddy-o. I didn't dismiss the potential for power creep. I dismissed your statement of a need for power creep. There is no need for power creep, within a new faction or otherwise. That is an assumption, and a fallacy.

If FFG wants to sell a new faction, they can do it by giving us beautiful models with a markedly different look from theexisting Rebel and Imperial forces. They can give us instantly recognizable pilots and characters from the EU, like IG-88, Bossk, or Prince Xizor. They can package the new ships with upgrade cards which are rare elsewhere - like the currently Defender-only Predator, or the HWK-only Blaster Turret. They could introduce new, unique game mechanics like they did with the Imperial Wave 4 ships - for example a tractor beam ability, or a new action like they did with the A-Wing and Interceptor. None of these options necessarily equate to power creep, just to diversity.

Power creep is a (very cynical) marketing tool available to game companies, and while it can boost sales, it can also quite easily breed discontent. As others have pointed out, FFG have done a very good job of avoiding it so far, and there's no reason to think they'd change that policy even if they decided to go in a different direction.

Hell, they already HAVE gone in a different direction with the release of the Epic-scale ships, and allowing Epic Ship upgrades to be used in regular games. It would have been quite easy to take the power creep approach to sell the most expensive model in the game, but I don't see too many people complaining that the Tantive IV is overpowered.

Hmm, I don't know about given so much as I have my misgivings. It goes back to the whole "if it's not broke..." etcetera etcetera and ad nauseum. Again, FFG is a good company, and I will admit (not too grudgingly) that a third faction could possibly turn out to be a marvelous new addition to the game. But what if it doesn't?

I will happily admit that the "if it's not broke..." line of caution has at times been very much missing in action when it comes to Star Wars. Hopefully FFG (and Disney) will be more inclined to take that approach than George Lucas was.

Here's a question: is there enough material to fully flesh out a specific third faction, like Black Sun? People have forwarded reasons for not adding additional ships, like the bounty hunters, to existing factions. Let's assume that this would then also hold true for our theoretical third faction. Going forward, would a third faction be able to keep pace with the existing ones, or would it eventually hit a ceiling and be left underrepresented, like previous iterations of the Necrons, or some of the factions in Attack Wing?

Ugh, just comparing X-Wing to those two other games just sent a shiver down my back.

Some of the problem with adding bounty hunters/smugglers has more to do with the nature of the ships being requested. With there being very few examples of ships even in the expansive EU of more than one bounty hunter using the same type of ship. Dengar, Bossk, IG-88 and Boba Fett's Slave II. Zuckuss's ship could work because he work since he paired with 4-LOM (I hope I have that name right) so at least that ship would have 2 named pilots, every nonepic ship so far has had at least 2 named pilots and 4 total pilots (inc at least one generic)

That said I would love a fringe faction for Bounty Hunters/Smugglers/Mercs certain ships more heavily favored by the fringe from the existing line could have new Cards printed as well (Z-95s, Y-wings, Firesprays, YTs (both kinds) Lambdas probably could be justified) Then tack on some extra fringe-onlys. Cloakshapes, Hornet Interceptors, StarVipers (aka Xizor's Virago)

Another argument against a 3rd faction in the traditional sense is the core set, unless they redesign it, a third faction will not be used for many new players and instead will be used by veterans looking for a change of pace and this will lead to a perceived creep even if no creep actually exists

Here's a question: is there enough material to fully flesh out a specific third faction, like Black Sun? People have forwarded reasons for not adding additional ships, like the bounty hunters, to existing factions. Let's assume that this would then also hold true for our theoretical third faction. Going forward, would a third faction be able to keep pace with the existing ones, or would it eventually hit a ceiling and be left underrepresented, like previous iterations of the Necrons, or some of the factions in Attack Wing?

Ugh, just comparing X-Wing to those two other games just sent a shiver down my back.

Yeah, mine as well. I'm currently funding my X-Wing fun thanks to ebay sales of Aquila products. I'm glad to see them go, as well.

But to the question, yeah, there's more than enough material out there. You just have to take a look at what Mel's doing on Shapeways to see just how much material there is out there. I think FFG have proven themselves to not be shy about drawing from the EU - and specifically, Star Wars video games - with the introduction of ships like the YT-2400, the TIE Defender, the Decimator (which I'd never even heard of myself) and referencing pilots like Steele and Farlander. It's probably only a matter of time before we see the YT-2000 and the Azzameens.

But yeah, we could list all the EU ships, discuss where they fit and how. The Imperials have quite a few more ships we could reasonably expect to see come out, but my worry is that they're already starting to run short of Rebel options. YT-2000, K-Wing, T-Wing... but then where? Work our way back through the fleet with repaints, modifications and Aces packs? Or does FFG continue to draw on Rebellion-era EU material for inspiration?

I'm not adverse to either idea myself, but if we're going to see ships from the EU that aren't immediately identifable with either Rebel or Imperial forces appear, I'd rather see them in their own niche.

I will happily admit that the "if it's not broke..." line of caution has at times been very much missing in action when it comes to Star Wars. Hopefully FFG (and Disney) will be more inclined to take that approach than George Lucas was.

Now you're just giving me license to say hyperbolic things like "yeah, a third faction could be the 'Greedo shoots first' of X-Wing!"

Yeah, mine as well. I'm currently funding my X-Wing fun thanks to ebay sales of Aquila products. I'm glad to see them go, as well.

But to the question, yeah, there's more than enough material out there. You just have to take a look at what Mel's doing on Shapeways to see just how much material there is out there. I think FFG have proven themselves to not be shy about drawing from the EU - and specifically, Star Wars video games - with the introduction of ships like the YT-2400, the TIE Defender, the Decimator (which I'd never even heard of myself) and referencing pilots like Steele and Farlander. It's probably only a matter of time before we see the YT-2000 and the Azzameens.

But yeah, we could list all the EU ships, discuss where they fit and how. The Imperials have quite a few more ships we could reasonably expect to see come out, but my worry is that they're already starting to run short of Rebel options. YT-2000, K-Wing, T-Wing... but then where? Work our way back through the fleet with repaints, modifications and Aces packs? Or does FFG continue to draw on Rebellion-era EU material for inspiration?

I'm not adverse to either idea myself, but if we're going to see ships from the EU that aren't immediately identifable with either Rebel or Imperial forces appear, I'd rather see them in their own niche.

One faction maybe, but all of them? So, we may potentially run out of Rebel craft while the Empire remains strong, while several other factions could field anywhere from a handful of ships to near as many as the Rebels. This is what the game could potentially look like if we follow that train of thought (all numbers are completely random, to illustrate a point):

Empire: 14 ships

Rebels: 11 ships

Black Sun: 9 ships

Bounty Hunters: 9 ships

Hutt Cartel: 7 ships

Could the game truly remain balanced like this?

In all the discussions on this topic I have read, I think only one person ever seriously suggested different faction for each fringe group. The vast majority of us are suggesting/wanting a SINGLE new faction to cover all of the ships and pilots that don't really fit either main group.

In all the discussions on this topic I have read, I think only one person ever seriously suggested different faction for each fringe group. The vast majority of us are suggesting/wanting a SINGLE new faction to cover all of the ships and pilots that don't really fit either main group.

That's what I was asking about in post #81. I think that " all of the ships and pilots that don't really fit either" is a bit much to ask though, don't you? That's why I also don't think it's fair to say that it's too unbalancing to add certain ships to either the Rebels or Imperials, but then shoehorn them into this nebulous, generic third faction. So please, pick a third faction, any third faction, and tell me if it can keep pace with the other two. I, personally, get the impression that it will still end up like the list above.

Hmm easy to miss the word "specific" there.

IMO, no, you could not do separate, self contained factions. It needs to be a single, generic grouping that gathers all the minor, misfit, non-aligned ships under one mechanical umbrella. You can give the ships names and paint jobs that reference specific organizations to make sort of pseudo sub factions (black sun fighter, black sun gunboat, etc...) but those would be purely aesthetic, fluff differences with no mechanical effect.

A single Cartel faction (or some other more suitable name) that could encompass a couple of the more well known smuggler/pirate groups and could include the Corporate Sector Authority since they were known to use criminals for their more nefarious work. It would be open enough to include a wide variety of small and large vessels and with the Custom Frigate that appeared first as a CSA ship would give them at least one huge ship.

How do you mechanically tie several disparate factions into one generic group? Rebels tend to be fewer, more expensive and more potent, and the Empire just the opposite. What unifying factor(s) can be sensibly translated into the game for an amalgamation of third factions?

Post 84. These are just some off the top of my head thoughts, with no work put in it.

A Black Sun faction should have a new flavor, not necessarily power creep But it should play differently than Imperial and Rebel.

I think it's been discussed before how a 3rd faction can play.

Here is what I said on that subject in the previous thread.

Thinking about it, here are a couple ways I thought of that a fringe faction could be unique

Greater emphasis on large ships. Yeah, they used Y's and Headhunters, but the primary ship for most fringers would be a large ship

Most fringer ships are heavily modified, so give them crappy primary attacks and assorted upgrades and pilot abilities to make them focus on secondary weapons (excellent opportunity to fix so e of what is wrong with secondaries)

I, personally, would love to see fringer ships that can take multiple modifications by default, but just having lots of upgrade icons and reasons to use them would be OK.

Pilot abilities or rules that encouraged taking different kinds of ships, sort of an anti-swarm/anti-spam thing, so that their squads look makeshift.

If we were talking about 40k I could believe those money grabbing gits would release a new army over powered just to sell minis to their ever decreasing player base.

But I have more faith in ffg having played a number of their products over the years, a new faction would only come in if it played differently from the existing two.

A pirate faction would be interesting done right lots of low quality but cheap fighter backed up by larger ships, you could have uglies introduced allowing the mixing of tech between rebels and imps.

It's not like we are saying the vong need to come in.

How do you mechanically tie several disparate factions into one generic group? Rebels tend to be fewer, more expensive and more potent, and the Empire just the opposite. What unifying factor(s) can be sensibly translated into the game for an amalgamation of third factions?

To address your question a little more directly, you can tie several disparate factions into one generic group because the only thing that distinguishes them is the paint job on the ships and the guy writing the checks. All those hundreds of different pirate/smuggler/bounty hunter groups in the universe all function much the same, so they can be tied together with a mechanical identity and leave the distinctions between them to the players. Different fringe groups are only different because they say they are, to an outside observer (in this case, the players) they all look alike. This interpretation us supported in the background by both the imperial and new republic tendencies to think of the fringe as one thing.

Hmm, I don't know about given so much as I have my misgivings. It goes back to the whole "if it's not broke..." etcetera etcetera and ad nauseum. Again, FFG is a good company, and I will admit (not too grudgingly) that a third faction could possibly turn out to be a marvelous new addition to the game. But what if it doesn't?

I think it's safe to say that any further development has risks. I'm not sure that an added faction has more risks than maintaining the two-faction system does, but I can see where you're coming from when you say that it will be riskier.

God dammit, who the hell started this third faction mess again?

That would be the OP.

But, thus far, I think this thread has been far more polite and more reasoned with reasonable arguments.

But, if you're looking for some ad hominem, I'm sure we can oblige. I'd hate to see a self-fulfilling prophesy go unfulfilled.

Just don't call me scruffy lookin' and I think we'll be fine.

But, thus far, I think this thread has been far more polite and more reasoned with reasonable arguments.

This thread is only up to 5 pages, the last one hit 24. Give it time, I'm sure we'll eventually get so mean and bitchy even emperor palpatine's opinion of us would be justified.

Just kidding....I hope.

Just don't call me scruffy lookin' and I think we'll be fine.

Deal

But, thus far, I think this thread has been far more polite and more reasoned with reasonable arguments.

This thread is only up to 5 pages, the last one hit 24. Give it time, I'm sure we'll eventually get so mean and bitchy even emperor palpatine's opinion of us would be justified.

Just kidding....I hope.

Speaking of prophesies have we ever fulfilled Godwin's Law?

WonderWAAAGH, have you been called a nazi or Hitler yet?