Hey everyone,

Every time I see the Phantom mentioned it is Whisper here or Echo there.

Are Sigma of Shadow Squadron pilots viable?

I keep looking at a Shadow with Stygium Particle Accelerator. (free evade when cloaking/decloaking)

And perhaps an intelligence agent. 29 or 30 points.

Has anyone tried to have a non named Phantom in a (semi) competitive build?

How'd it go? What works? What doesn't?

I have a friend who runs Whisper with VI and ACD paired up with 2 Shadow Squad with ACD and has done very well with them. I don't know if it's because it's a good squad (I think it is) or it's because people haven't figured out how to fight the Phantom and its cloaking shenanigans yet.

Hey everyone,

Every time I see the Phantom mentioned it is Whisper here or Echo there.

Are Sigma of Shadow Squadron pilots viable?

I keep looking at a Shadow with Stygium Particle Accelerator. (free evade when cloaking/decloaking)

And perhaps an intelligence agent. 29 or 30 points.

Has anyone tried to have a non named Phantom in a (semi) competitive build?

How'd it go? What works? What doesn't?

Try:

Bounty Hunter with Tactician x2

Sigma Phantom with Adv. sensors and Stygium.

It's essentially a 3xBH list. With a Phantom instead for added firepower and shenanigans (cloaking from adv sensors and the decloaking before revealing dial is nice for some surprise mobility).

The dual BHs can' t be ignored, giving the Phantom a chance to deliver some hurt before going down.

All PS3 is also good.

Hey everyone,

Every time I see the Phantom mentioned it is Whisper here or Echo there.

Are Sigma of Shadow Squadron pilots viable?

I keep looking at a Shadow with Stygium Particle Accelerator. (free evade when cloaking/decloaking)

And perhaps an intelligence agent. 29 or 30 points.

Has anyone tried to have a non named Phantom in a (semi) competitive build?

How'd it go? What works? What doesn't?

I've played a few games with a Shadow with ACD and Recon spec. It's been very solid and the extra focus allows it to have reliability in attack dice and defense. (I think it's very hard to lose the action economy of ACD, which not only gives defense but mobility, so I disagree to some extent with Aminar about cloaking only working for higher PS pilots). I run it with Jax (PTL, Hull), Mithel (VI), and Backstabber. Everyone in the list hits hard and the phantom draws a lot of attention from the opponent early, which leaves the others to do a lot of damage.

Downside is that it is still expensive and is vulnerable to wider range of high PS than either Echo or Whisper. So, I stay further back for a longer range standoff rather than getting in for the close shot and/or arc dodging against higher PS since I can't exactly predict where they'll be nor demolish them first. Essentially, rather than being the workhorse in that situation, it's the distraction while the other pilots hit.

I'd call it viable and competitive but it's not for someone looking for an elite list.

Remember, an unmodified 4 dice attack averages 2 damage and gets 4 hits one in 16 times. It's not really added firepower over a shuttle(Which can allow for a pair of recon specialists.) It would be if the Phantom could take a few more hits, but it sadly can't unless it wants to go the every other turn attack route. Which leaves it doing even less damage.

@Alex W

I can't see that working for long. Sure it makes a great distraction, but one that will die in a round of focus fire. It would work if people weren't packing every scrap of PS they can. It would certainly work against the Tie Swarms of old. But right now it's a 32 point 4 hull Biggs that gets 4 defense dice against your filler if he lives to the filler. At a third of your list that Phantom is relying on Phantom Fear more than actual threat.

The basic ships are too bad IMHO. They still get a lot of manuverability and their 5 dice at close range is still a nasty prospect for any Rebel ship. I had one used against me today and it performed pretty well although I did manage to catch it at short range and strip off it's shields at one point.

I think the named Phantoms are taking the spotlight because of their high mobility but I think a Sigma or 2 can be a good addition to a team. For my part, I would probably run them naked.

I like to compare them with rookie Pilots.

For 4 points you get:

- 1 more attack dice

- Barrel roll, Evade and cloaking action

- Crew and System upgrade slot

- 1 more PS

You lose:

- 1 Hull

- Target Lock action

- Astromech slot

You change the dial for the Tie Fighter one minus the 5 straight and 3 K-turn

I'm not sure you should cloak and decloak often with them. More like at the start of the game, then when you can't shoot at nobody anyway or expect a lot of heat.

Sigma Pilot x2

Obsidian Pilot x2

Academy Pilot x2

Remember, an unmodified 4 dice attack averages 2 damage and gets 4 hits one in 16 times. It's not really added firepower over a shuttle(Which can allow for a pair of recon specialists.) It would be if the Phantom could take a few more hits, but it sadly can't unless it wants to go the every other turn attack route. Which leaves it doing even less damage.

@Alex W

I can't see that working for long. Sure it makes a great distraction, but one that will die in a round of focus fire. It would work if people weren't packing every scrap of PS they can. It would certainly work against the Tie Swarms of old. But right now it's a 32 point 4 hull Biggs that gets 4 defense dice against your filler if he lives to the filler. At a third of your list that Phantom is relying on Phantom Fear more than actual threat.

Yes, in isolation that makes sense (btw, what small ship doesn't die to focus fire? Even a PS 5 phantom is hard to get all your guns on). However, it just hasn't held true because it means allowing the rest of my list a huge positional advantage. I've played several games with the list and while I still need to get better with the phantom itself, even games that the phantom has been my first ship down, I've been able to do far more damage in exchange and end up with a a significant advantage by that point.

While a ps1 tie fighter is perfectly viable because it's cheap phantoms are another case, it can't sit there while every reb takes potshots two green dice and four hit points don't go that far, you'd have to wait until you can be sure your out of every arc before reclaiming, where for a few points more echo can attack every turn.

Remember, an unmodified 4 dice attack averages 2 damage and gets 4 hits one in 16 times. It's not really added firepower over a shuttle(Which can allow for a pair of recon specialists.) It would be if the Phantom could take a few more hits, but it sadly can't unless it wants to go the every other turn attack route. Which leaves it doing even less damage.

@Alex W

I can't see that working for long. Sure it makes a great distraction, but one that will die in a round of focus fire. It would work if people weren't packing every scrap of PS they can. It would certainly work against the Tie Swarms of old. But right now it's a 32 point 4 hull Biggs that gets 4 defense dice against your filler if he lives to the filler. At a third of your list that Phantom is relying on Phantom Fear more than actual threat.

Yes, in isolation that makes sense (btw, what small ship doesn't die to focus fire? Even a PS 5 phantom is hard to get all your guns on). However, it just hasn't held true because it means allowing the rest of my list a huge positional advantage. I've played several games with the list and while I still need to get better with the phantom itself, even games that the phantom has been my first ship down, I've been able to do far more damage in exchange and end up with a a significant advantage by that point.

That's why I say your playing off Phantom Fear more than effectiveness, and that the tactic will not work for long as people realise that Phantoms are not a huge threat. You're outplaying your opponent with a mediocre build. A smart player is going to realize your Phantom isn't the worst thing out there and position to deal with both forces. They're mistakes(overstimating the Phantom) don't make the strategy good long term.

I mean, for 32 points you can get a defender with the same PS, more Hull, More shields, and a pretty similar gun. It'll draw just as much fire as the phantom, last through more of it, and then there's the fact one more point gives you an Entire bounty Hunter. The Phantom you are describing, while cool, is nowhere near the raw effectiveness of a Bounty hunter. You have to look at what else is in the point range and see if it is the best option.

Granted, if you're already using a Bounty Hunter it might offer something different, but it's nothing the Defender doesn't do better other than scare people into killing it.

No, i don't think so. Maybe a 5PS one with a similar load out to the named if the meta was back to being Biggs + bwings and tie swarms, but it won't be anytime soon with the OTHER phantoms + falcons running around. The ps5 ones would essentially beat daggers at their own game.

The first problem is, if you do not equip advanced sensors OR advanced cloaking device, then you can't decloak + attack every turn. You can maybe fly them hit and run style, spending time to cloak when your out of range and then coming back around to take advantage of being able to decloak + fire. Kinda like corran horn having to take turns off.

If you go the advance sensors route, then you're not getting any other actions (meaning you cloak + decloak before your dial). You can run stygium to get an evade, but you still won't be cloaked during the combat phase either. ACD does that of course and costs 1 less than combining the previous 2 cards, but you still wont be cloaked for possibly most/all the combat phase anyway depending on ps of course. You can maybe give them more tricks, but now you're starting to talk about a ship in the 30-35 pt range with 4 hp that is still 3 or 5 ps and could "guess wrong" at any moment.

You can streak a 25 pointer, but I have no idea why you would do that when you can have a royal guard + ptl for the same points and perform basically the same role in your squad but better.

I think a naked sigma could make a nice heavy hitter in an imperial squad. Might even function as an imperial biggs for the same cost as he is. Give someone swarm tactics to make sure they get off at least 1 4 dice attack.

With the current trend to play phantoms, there are too many lists prepared to somewhat deal with the higher PS phantom pilots, leaving the regular phantom pilots in a very very bad spot.

Remember, an unmodified 4 dice attack averages 2 damage and gets 4 hits one in 16 times. It's not really added firepower over a shuttle(Which can allow for a pair of recon specialists.) It would be if the Phantom could take a few more hits, but it sadly can't unless it wants to go the every other turn attack route. Which leaves it doing even less damage.

@Alex W

I can't see that working for long. Sure it makes a great distraction, but one that will die in a round of focus fire. It would work if people weren't packing every scrap of PS they can. It would certainly work against the Tie Swarms of old. But right now it's a 32 point 4 hull Biggs that gets 4 defense dice against your filler if he lives to the filler. At a third of your list that Phantom is relying on Phantom Fear more than actual threat.

Yes, in isolation that makes sense (btw, what small ship doesn't die to focus fire? Even a PS 5 phantom is hard to get all your guns on). However, it just hasn't held true because it means allowing the rest of my list a huge positional advantage. I've played several games with the list and while I still need to get better with the phantom itself, even games that the phantom has been my first ship down, I've been able to do far more damage in exchange and end up with a a significant advantage by that point.

Most small ships don't cost 32 points. The ones that do need protection of one kind or another. Interceptors have high agility and High PS at those point ranges. Defenders have high agility and 6 hits.

That's why I say your playing off Phantom Fear more than effectiveness, and that the tactic will not work for long as people realise that Phantoms are not a huge threat. You're outplaying your opponent with a mediocre build. A smart player is going to realize your Phantom isn't the worst thing out there and position to deal with both forces. They're mistakes(overstimating the Phantom) don't make the strategy good long term.

I mean, for 32 points you can get a defender with the same PS, more Hull, More shields, and a pretty similar gun. It'll draw just as much fire as the phantom, last through more of it, and then there's the fact one more point gives you an Entire bounty Hunter. The Phantom you are describing, while cool, is nowhere near the raw effectiveness of a Bounty hunter. You have to look at what else is in the point range and see if it is the best option.

Granted, if you're already using a Bounty Hunter it might offer something different, but it's nothing the Defender doesn't do better other than scare people into killing it.

Neither of those ships are as maneuverable nor do they hit as hard (and these two things are fundamental to understanding the value of the phantom, even lower PS versions), and, in addition, looking at them outside of the list or plan just doesn't make sense.

If you think the phantom isn't a threat, you're allowing it freedom to throw the most attack dice of any ship in the list anywhere it wants (and it's the ideal situation for me, imo). I won't continue to explain explain the tactics of the list, but I'll just say that it's made to give you bad choices, and proven tourney players and a variety of other players alike struggle with target priority in it. (I don't bring that up to brag, but it there were some assumptions made about my opposition and I want to be clear).

Again, I'm not saying it's a top list, but I think it is competitive enough that I could take it to a tournament and win more than I lose provided I play well, which to me is the definition of viable -- ie, they don't put me at a disadvantage. Moreover, though, my point was to respond to the OP, who asked about experience with unnamed phantoms (even using the phrase semi-competitive, and that's been mine so far. Which, in sum, is to say that I think they can work in lists that present equal or similar threat to themselves.

The Phantom you describe sacrifices survivability for manueverability and damage to the point a competent player with experience against a Phantom and a list designed for the current meta can dea with it with ease. The Phantom needs all its pieces to work. The last half dozen lists I've run could hand that Phantom just fine, as an afterthought. Any Phantom or Falcon across the board can do the same. Almost every named pilot in the game can take it on relatively reliably, excluding the named Z-95s, and some of the tie fighters.(Backstabber and Night Beast would cause some issues) The inferences made about your opponents aren't that they are bad, but that they haven't played against the list enough to learn its tricks. Fact is, for 3 more points you get a standard Echo setup. For 4 more you get 3 Tie Fighters. It's an inneficient build. Whisper has a handful of pilots that out Pilot Skill her and just one on a list creates major problems.

But the main issue is that Chewbacca laughs at you. The phantoms biggest weakness is its hard counters. Adding every named pilot in the game to that list on a 32 point ship is begging to lose. Struggles with target priority get learned past. (Beyond that telegraphing your Phantoms setup point is bad for your Phantom. There are lists this works against. Most of them are not viable in the current meta anyway.

The Phantom you describe sacrifices survivability for manueverability and damage to the point a competent player with experience against a Phantom and a list designed for the current meta can dea with it with ease. The Phantom needs all its pieces to work. The last half dozen lists I've run could hand that Phantom just fine, as an afterthought. Any Phantom or Falcon across the board can do the same. Almost every named pilot in the game can take it on relatively reliably, excluding the named Z-95s, and some of the tie fighters.(Backstabber and Night Beast would cause some issues) The inferences made about your opponents aren't that they are bad, but that they haven't played against the list enough to learn its tricks. Fact is, for 3 more points you get a standard Echo setup. For 4 more you get 3 Tie Fighters. It's an inneficient build. Whisper has a handful of pilots that out Pilot Skill her and just one on a list creates major problems.

But the main issue is that Chewbacca laughs at you. The phantoms biggest weakness is its hard counters. Adding every named pilot in the game to that list on a 32 point ship is begging to lose. Struggles with target priority get learned past. (Beyond that telegraphing your Phantoms setup point is bad for your Phantom. There are lists this works against. Most of them are not viable in the current meta anyway.

Absolutely, the phantom can be dealt with (as can any), and I acknowledged that several posts ago when I said it has all the same disadvantages that higher PS phantoms have but a wider range, though I disagree on the notion of any named pilot being able to handle it "reliably," and once again, either way, this isn't a one-on-one matchup. If we go by those standards, our conversation about any ship in the game will end in the same place.

I also realize that for a couple of points I can get Echo, but the points saved in the list go into other areas that make the larger list more effective, and that's where I think the lower PS ships phantoms can provide some flexibility (and dropping rec spec could add to that flexibilty, but I'd argue that it actually makes this phantom more survivable than a more expensive Echo to a Chewie list, for example). So, in the case of this ship, I'm attempting to use it to build the larger list more efficiently, even if I realize that there more effective builds for the phantom itself (just at a higher price).

I also tend to avoid lists that flood the meta and try to find things that work that aren't being played. You may end up being right about the list, but I'm more than comfortable continuing to use it.

Sigma + Stygium

Sigma + Stygium

Sigma + Stygium

Howlrunner+DTF

It's live or die by the cruel octahedral dice gods.

Try:

Bounty Hunter with Tactician x2

Sigma Phantom with Adv. sensors and Stygium.

It's essentially a 3xBH list. With a Phantom instead for added firepower and shenanigans (cloaking from adv sensors and the decloaking before revealing dial is nice for some surprise mobility).

The dual BHs can' t be ignored, giving the Phantom a chance to deliver some hurt before going down.

All PS3 is also good.

I'm thinking if I do run a generic Phantom it will look something like this:

Shadow Squadron + Stygium Particle Accelerator + FCS

Then either put Intelligence Agent on it or Mercenary Copilot. The idea being for intel agent, you can learn where they'll be. For Merc, you do that if you're trying to keep back out of the fray and snipe with range 3 shots. Landing some crits will hopefully mitigate your sporadic shots and long range. This is 31-32 points, or maybe I could just not take any crew.