So there's a debate going between two of the other players at my FLGS. Foundation data:

FAQ: If a ship suffers more damage or critical damage than is needed to destroy it, are the excess Damage cards still assigned to that ship?

A: Yes. This means taht a ship in the play area due to the Simultaneous Attack Rule may be affected by additional faceup Damage cards.

The debate is between one player (has a fair amount of TO experience with this and other games) who says that you only pull Crit cards if this ship destroyed is covered under Simultaneous Attack, otherwise you just remove it from the board and another player who insists that you mill (continue to draw) all necessary cards from the Damage deck until you've satisfied the dice as rolled. On the Don't-Mill side, part of the argument is that it is a waste of time to do so, is unnecessary, and that it doesn't matter. On the Mill side, the argument is that it changes probabilities for any particular card to come up on future Crits (like reducing the number of Direct Hits).

I'm a little confused. If you break the FAQ answer into component sentences, then it would seem to support Milling the damage decks. If you look at it as a whole, though, it looks like it is only applied when the Simultaneous Attack rule is in play. Help?

I generally don't Mill. That said, if my opponent wants me to I will. I just don' think about it most of the time, and while it alters the damage deck slightly to not, I don't think it's manipulatable enough to matter.

You should always assign the dice-determined damage cards, even if it exceeds what is needed to destroy the target.

I'd only apply it when the Simultaneous Attack rule is in play.

I mean the argument that taking out the "extra" cards changing the "probability" of drawing a specific is accurate but also inaccurate at the same time. I guess that if you are keeping track of all the damage cards that come up you'll have a better idea of what criticals are still available but that doesn't mean you're going to get a specific damage card. I mean if you flip a coin 4 times and the first 3 come up HEADS the odds of then last roll coming up HEADS is still 50:50 although the odds of rolling Heads 4 times is 1/16. Milling the damage deck is the same kind of effect.

I do not understand how there are opposing camps on this issue.

The answer to the question is clearly given in the FAQ, with an example for why the rule is as it is. The FAQ does not say "Yes, but only when the Simultaneous Fire rule is in effect", it just says yes to the exact question. There is no leg to stand on to suggest that FAQ says anything but yes when it comes to do you deal out damage cards in excess of damage capacity.

To do otherwise, as other posters have suggested, is simply playing by a house rule. While that is well and good and players can choose to play however they wish in private, it is not how the situation should or would play out in an official event.

The FAQ is clear. The answer is "yes."

It doesn't say to only do this when Simultaneous Attack is in effect. It just says what happens if it is.

There's a joke in here somewhere about quantum damage. That crit is both a Direct Hit and not a Direct Hit until it's flipped!

Edit: Ninja'd. Concur!

I concur, the FAQ definitely says "yes," they should be drawn and assigned.

Another reason this is important: let's assume a force has two ships remaining and one sustains three damage, it has one hull remaining, there are only two damage cards left...where does the extra card come from!?! The damage cards from all the destroyed ships would be gathered, shuffled and the top card drawn!

Per pg 16 of the rules:

"note: If the Damage deck runs out, shuffle the discard pile to create a new deck"

Hence the probability of the damage cards are indeed changed!

I mean the argument that taking out the "extra" cards changing the "probability" of drawing a specific is accurate but also inaccurate at the same time

No, it's just accurate. Drawing a specific crit and flipping coins is not the same statistical scenario. If all the Direct Hit cards are gone, the chance of drawing another one is 0. If there are only 3 damage cards left in the deck, and you know which 3 you haven't seen yet, you know there is a 1 in 3 chance for either of them to be drawn next.

If you are playing a list that uses a big chunk of the damage deck (5 bombers for example), it is critical that you mill cards.

Here is a scenario. You don't mill.... during the game you unluckily suffer all 7 direct hits as critical cards. The game comes down to your last bomber on the final turn. 2 hull remaining and the opponant gets 1 hit through your green dice. You win.

Had you played properly, at some point you would likely have run out of card, and all of a sudden those direct hits are back in the deck for that final turn.

The rules say you are required to, I always do, and I expect (and would remind if they don't automatically) my opponant to do the same, to do otherwise is cheating.

You must draw the extra cards, that being said,

Most of the time it feels like a waste of time.

Most people don't even draw the 'normal' cards when the damage calculations show that the ship will be destroyed. They simply remove it from table without assigning damage cards to it.

You are welcome to houserule damage cards assignation the way your playing group feel more comfortable or quick. However the actual rule is that all cards, even excess ones, must be assigned to the ship. And if a player in a tournament demands you to do so, you should comply.

I think we have established that you always draw the damage cards.

I find it funny that some people find ut a waste of time. I mean how long does it take to draw between 1 and say 4 damage cards? A few seconds? I don't think these few seconds will matter much compared ro thw overall game length. But the effect it has ob the game is well debated in this thread.

See, I was pretty sure this was the way to play it then had some guy at regionals tell me otherwise.

the question has been soundly answered. I'm just wondering why you guys are looking at & counting your damage cards? Is that allowed? I don't have my book to hand but me & everyone at my group is u der the impression you only look at the damage card if its a crit? Maybe its just some weird group assumption rather than a hard & fast rule?

the question has been soundly answered. I'm just wondering why you guys are looking at & counting your damage cards? Is that allowed? I don't have my book to hand but me & everyone at my group is u der the impression you only look at the damage card if its a crit? Maybe its just some weird group assumption rather than a hard & fast rule?

When a ship is destroyed, the damage cards assigned to that ship are discarded into a faceup discard pile.

the question has been soundly answered. I'm just wondering why you guys are looking at & counting your damage cards? Is that allowed? I don't have my book to hand but me & everyone at my group is u der the impression you only look at the damage card if its a crit? Maybe its just some weird group assumption rather than a hard & fast rule?

When a ship is destroyed, the damage cards assigned to that ship are discarded into a faceup discard pile.

Correct. All damage cards are discarded faceup next to the 'unused' portion of the damage deck... INCLUDING the ones that exceeded the hull value (if any), of said destroyed ship.

One the same lines, if an attacker is allowed to roll 3 attack dice, and they (the dice) all come up 'blank', the defender is still required to roll defense dice. The combat phase is not complete until all the steps are resolved. It may seem like a 'waste of time', but it still needs to done before moving on to the 'end phase'.

ah ok. My bad, I've never seen anyone use the full deck & we usually just leave the damage cards as the were next to the destroyed ships face down card rather than putting them in a discard pile. Cheers guys =)

One the same lines, if an attacker is allowed to roll 3 attack dice, and they (the dice) all come up 'blank', the defender is still required to roll defense dice. The combat phase is not complete until all the steps are resolved. It may seem like a 'waste of time', but it still needs to done before moving on to the 'end phase'.

Slightly off topic, but this actually inspired me to look through the various rule documents for any allowance for employing short cuts when the full process really will just chew up time (ie. 3 hits rolled with an Ion weapon against a stock B-wing; there's no possible way the B-wing avoids the ion effect), and to my surprise there isn't. So it seems that you do, technically, have to go through the full process at all times. I would have thought the tournament rules at least would have made allowance for mutually agreeable short cuts.

I would have thought the tournament rules at least would have made allowance for mutually agreeable short cuts.

That becomes a huge slippery slope though, and if anything the Tournament rules should be more strict not less strict when it comes to process. You start to allow shortcuts official, and then those become the standard way to play rather then shortcuts.

Shortcuts are fine to use if both sides agree on it. Like say Lt Blount firing a Ion Pulse, there's really no reason for the defender to roll dice... But perhaps there may be an EPT that gives Kath's ability then it would matter.

But considering there's people out there who believe that they have the right to take shortcuts as long as they don't believe it effects the game, regardless of the opinion of the other person... Shortcuts are not something I believe we should ever see any sort of official support for.

I can see letting certain shortcuts slide when there would be exactly zero difference between the outcome of doing it and not doing it (like rolling 1 defense die against Lt Blount with Ion Pulse), but the damage deck does actually seem to change depending on if you mill vs. not mill. I've run some scenarios with shuffling my damage deck and random die rolls and seen what happens. Sometimes it favors the defender by making it not draw a Direct Hit on a later damage assignment, sometimes it makes a Direct Hit be drawn when it would otherwise have been assigned to a destroyed ship. But it does look like it changes the outcome.

Something else I've seen is putting expended damage cards from destroyed ships back into the deck at the bottom immediately. Also doesn't seem to fit with the rules as written.

Anyway, thanks everybody for the responses. I'll make sure to bring these points up next time the question comes up.

Something else I've seen is putting expended damage cards from destroyed ships back into the deck at the bottom immediately. Also doesn't seem to fit with the rules as written.

No, it doesn't fit. If you're really struggling for space, I suppose putting the used cards face-up at the bottom of the deck would be acceptable, but otherwise you should keep a separate pile of used damage cards and reshuffle them if/when you run out.

The question definitely seems to impact Epic scale games moreso than Standard scale. There seems to be only one way to actually mill a damage deck completely in Standard, that being to use a list with six TIE Bombers. But Epic scale definitely can go through the whole thing.

The question definitely seems to impact Epic scale games moreso than Standard scale. There seems to be only one way to actually mill a damage deck completely in Standard, that being to use a list with six TIE Bombers. But Epic scale definitely can go through the whole thing.

Maarek could do it (if anyone used Maarek). Determination has the potential to discard several damage cards without resolving them.

Something else I've seen is putting expended damage cards from destroyed ships back into the deck at the bottom immediately. Also doesn't seem to fit with the rules as written.

That is a bit further than the rules allow. I'd say the "issue" there is that the recycled damage deck is no longer randomized but if you shuffle them back in then you completely mess up the probabilities by reintroducing cards previously used.

Here's a crazy question: How many of you make decisions based on what cards are left in the damage deck?

I may breathe a sigh of relief when I see certain cards removed but NOT seeing those cards removed can make some things more stressful. As a whole I never really let what the damage deck may spit out influence my decisions.

Although cards are already used a "damage counters" I really don't see any big issue with using some other counter/token to represent an "unknown" damage card and only using the actual cards when something is to be seen "face-up" at which time that card remains.

The whole "after a ship is destroyed, discard all of its damage cards face up to the discard pile" thing...I've been playing the game for six months, and I have yet to see a single person actually do this. This includes watching many of the 2013 regionals and worlds games on YouTube. Hell, I didn't even know about it until it was brought up in this thread, causing me to go through all of my PDFs looking for the source, just to find it in the core rules. Everyone I've ever played or seen played just leaves the damage cards in their "dealt state" (I.e. Dealt to the ship according to the dice) for the whole game.

I'm...flabbergasted.

I've been playing the game nearly since release and I've yet to go through an entire damage deck. I don't think I've even come close.