I was talking to a buddy about this last night and figure you all may have valuable input. X-Wing, we all agree, is a fun game to play at its core. The flight path system really feels like dogfighting to a degree and being an ace pilot is always fun. On top of this, FFG has done a great job of capturing the flavor of the Star Wars Universe. The ships feel different and are, generally, useful in their own various roles. Elite pilots feel elite and, although they are sometimes overpriced, Wave IV appears to have done a fantastic job of boosting their playability.

So here's the question: If FFG never releases another set after Wave 5 (and maybe one Imperial huge ship) would you keep playing?

No new ships, no new aces packs, no Y-Wing or Tie/A upgrades, and no new upgrades of FAQs (after one final update.) What we're after is trying pin down how fun the game is in and of itself without the fun of new shinies. What do you all think?

Note: I'm not saying they won't release new packs and I'm not saying I don't want them too. That's not the discussion. Instead, I want to parse the difference between the fun of the novel and of the game.

Question 2: Is it possible to achieve an ideal pool of ships, upgrades, and tokens? Is there a danger of this system getting overloaded with options like Heroclix or 40k? It's certainly far away, but could it happen conceptually or does the Flight Path System prevent that? What would it look like?

Yes. There is a lot to explore in this game.

This game is fun, balanced, and offers a ton of adaptation. That said, MORE STUFF PLEASE.!

Why would you stop just because there no new models, as long as current ships remained on shelves you'd still have a great game with lots of variety.

I'd take that over releasing things just to gouge our wallets like gw do.

What you're begging is the reverse question. Are we currently only playing the game in order to await the good stuff that's coming.

Clearly not.

The game is great as it is, and it was great before the current set of expansions.

FFG, keep up the good work. Don't make us wait too long on the Imperial Huge.

Yes, I imagine I'll be playing for years to come, regardless of xpacs. With so much stuff already available, there is a lot of variety and flexibility in games.

I could have lived with ending at wave 3. Wave 4 gave me all the ships I really wanted but didn't expect would ever get into the game.

I don't mind new stuff, wave 5 has intrigued me a lot and there are a few other ships that i would definitely pick up like the Assault Gunboat, but if we never got anything new beyond that I would be satisfied with the game

The simple rules belie the depth of the game, which comes as much from list-building and choosing upgrades, as it does the maneuvers on the board. I will happily play this game for a long time, as I tend to enjoy games with depth more than those without. I'm not saying I don't enjoy a shallow game from time to time, but rather that the depth provides staying power for the passion/enjoyment.

Also, if things get boring you can start throwing restrictions out the window, or imposing some. I find that creativity is helped along by a few lines guard-rails, but that's just me...

Your second question is a bit more complex, I feel. How do you define an ideal system? Do you define it as being balanced, where dominant strategies may arise, but counters exist within the rules? Would it be ideal if both sides could do perform/field the same general strategies, such as Ion Locking or Swarms (now viable in Rebel Flavor)?

Personally, I enjoy the asymmetry, and that's not going to go away, since faction specific cards exist, and since neither side can field exactly the same ship, even if they can field similar concepts. Short of importing the entire Extended Universe, I'm not sure we'll have to worry about too many options, and we're certainly well past the point of too few.

I honestly hope they slow their release schedule after Rebel Aces, wave 5, and the huge Imp.

Sorry, that doesn't directly answer your question. I think once those three releases arrive, the game will be in a position that future waves don't need to be rushed because there is a great distribution of options and combinations. So yes, I would keep playing. I would hope, at the very least, that they would continue to support the game in other ways.

As someone with a pretty limited ship count, I could probably take an entire year figuring out all my options with duplicates of my existing ships.

If wave 5 were the last, I'd play for a bit more, then a bit less, and then even less. And then my models would become pretty shelf ornaments.

A miniature game systems needs new shinies to keep players interested. If the community shrinks, then the interest shrinks, until it just becomes a thing people talk about. Remember X-Wing. . . We had a huge drop off in interest in the large gap between Wave 3 and Imperial Aces.

Some players are alright with a static rules game like Chess. I'm not one of them.

What you're begging is the reverse question. Are we currently only playing the game in order to await the good stuff that's coming.

Clearly not.

The game is great as it is, and it was great before the current set of expansions.

FFG, keep up the good work. Don't make us wait too long on the Imperial Huge.

I am inclined to agree. I think the game was fun with just the core set and hasn't lost that fun yet.

For me, this is in marked contrast to LCG or CCGs where I would very quickly get tired of playing old cards and couldn't wait for new sets to shake things up. At times, I did play those just for the new stuff.

As someone with a pretty limited ship count, I could probably take an entire year figuring out all my options with duplicates of my existing ships.

Once you figure them out, would you grow bored?

If wave 5 were the last, I'd play for a bit more, then a bit less, and then even less. And then my models would become pretty shelf ornaments.

A miniature game systems needs new shinies to keep players interested. If the community shrinks, then the interest shrinks, until it just becomes a thing people talk about. Remember X-Wing. . . We had a huge drop off in interest in the large gap between Wave 3 and Imperial Aces.

Some players are alright with a static rules game like Chess. I'm not one of them.

Thanks for the reply! I think there are a lot of players like this. Would you mind elaborating a bit on why? Where is the fun for you? Why are new shinies needed?

Note: Wherever that fun is is fine. I'm in no way judging. Just trying to parse the divide. I love shinies and just playing core fights.

As long as people keep paying, errr I mean playing X-Wing, FFG will produce new products.

For me, this is in marked contrast to LCG or CCGs where I would very quickly get tired of playing old cards and couldn't wait for new sets to shake things up. At times, I did play those just for the new stuff.

I suppose you're right that these game pieces each offer more versatility than new cards in a card game. I haven't played enough card games to really get much of a sense of that.

I honestly hope they slow their release schedule after Rebel Aces, wave 5, and the huge Imp.

Sorry, that doesn't directly answer your question. I think once those three releases arrive, the game will be in a position that future waves don't need to be rushed because there is a great distribution of options and combinations. So yes, I would keep playing. I would hope, at the very least, that they would continue to support the game in other ways.

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, the Decimator seemed like a bit of a bottom-of-the-barrel part of the EU. It's pretty **** obscure. I also thought the same of the TIE Defender, but going to Wookieepedia suggests that I was just ignorant of how widely that ship had been profiled. While I don't mind diversity, I don't want my sense of Star Wars to be diluted into just weird and wacky ships (that make no in-universe sense) just for the sake of pushing product.

You all are in a better position to gauge the needs of the game in terms of more diverse combinations of abilities, etc. My mind is more fixated on how well the game captures the SWU.

On the other hand, I'm an enthusiastic little nerd, and I'm curious what they will put out next!

If wave 5 were the last, I'd play for a bit more, then a bit less, and then even less. And then my models would become pretty shelf ornaments.

A miniature game systems needs new shinies to keep players interested. If the community shrinks, then the interest shrinks, until it just becomes a thing people talk about. Remember X-Wing. . . We had a huge drop off in interest in the large gap between Wave 3 and Imperial Aces.

Some players are alright with a static rules game like Chess. I'm not one of them.

I agree with this. I've played a lot of minis games, and once they stopped making them things got a little boring, and there were fewer and fewer people to play with (though it seems there is always a core group of players that manage to keep the game going amongst themselves). I'm sure that's what will happen to X-Wing. What I'm less sure of is how steep the curve will be (could be a year or two, but I doubt much more than that). And, of course, I'm sure X-Wing will have that core group that plays and maybe even makes virtual sets (like they are doing with the WOTC Star Wars minis game) after the end of the official game. Fortunately, I think FFG will be making ships for another couple of years (more if they got the license for more than 5 years).

Probably not; certainly not indefinitely. There's too many new games to play. X-Wing already takes up a fair portion of my gaming time. When they stop putting out new material, the clock starts ticking, and when I get to the point that my friends and I have exhausted to combinations we want to play, we'll move on to something else. We'd still revisit X-Wing occasionally -- it's a great game -- but it will start to gather some dust in between.

I honestly wish they would stop releasing so much stuff.

I honestly wish they would stop releasing so much stuff.

I both agree and disagree with this. Maybe they could spread out releases a little more evenly so that the game expands at a controlled rate. Also, this would be easier on the wallet as well. I've gone broke with wave 4 and Rebel Aces will put in indentured servitude by months end...

I have a huge collection. 4+ of every small ship, other then the HWK and Tie Advanced. 1 of each large and huge ship.

The idea that I'd run out of effective combinations anytime in the near future, is kind of silly. Even playing twice a week, it would take years before I got to the point that I had truly exhausted the combo's and many years before i'd get board with the options I have.

I'd actually be perfectly fine with them stopping the ships here... Perhaps building some huge ships for the Imps, and ending there. That's fine by me. I'd keep playing.

They however NEED to keep doing stuff to continue to drive interest in the game and revenue. The way I'd go about doing that, is perhaps creating "Mission Packs." These would introduce campaigns or single missions that players can challenge themselves with and still introduce new models if they choose too.

I'm just more of an "objective" game player though, so the above would interest me a lot... where as others who are more competitive probably want more ships to change up the gameplay.

The idea that I'd run out of effective combinations anytime in the near future, is kind of silly. Even playing twice a week, it would take years before I got to the point that I had truly exhausted the combo's and many years before i'd get board with the options I have.

Sure, but at the same time, there are a lot of combos that are simply not worthwhile. (Right, you said 'effective'). But is this game really about building effective combinations? Maybe this is an art that's inherent in those people who play the card games.

Also, the way in which this game invites fans to get creative. Some people like to model, some people like to create missions, some people like to make new rules.

In some way, FFG's production schedule of new stuff provides a bit of a damper on that. I'm afraid to start building the BFF-1 Bulk Freighter, because I think there's a certain probability that before I even get it finished, presto!, it's going to be the next huge ship, and all my time and effort with be displaced by something that will cost $80 on every shelf in every gaming store.

That, or I devise a subtle hyperspace mechanic to use in missions, and then FFG gives us a simple rule in a mission somewhere (they've already done so, to a degree, I know), and my mechanic can't get traction anymore. (Okay, so this is not a major thing, I can always design things the way I want, but this is just to illustrate the point.)

So for a long time, I thought D&D Minis was the Miniatures game that I would play for the rest of my life. Then they changed D&D from 3.5 to 4th edition, and stopped production of D&D Minis (Because the Minis used essentially the same system as the RPG, and the new edition, well, didn't translate well to the Minis game). Very quickly, what was an FLGS weekly staple game became the game people shared fond memories of and sometimes mused about the "what ifs", and was no longer played. No more Sealeds, no more drafts, no new mechanics, nor models, and I realized that these were the things that brought in the crowds, which in turn created the social aspects that made it fun.

Yes, there's still some dedicated people that meet every other month and play games, but if those people don't really jive with you, that's it.

For games like X-Wing, part of what determines how long it lasts after production ends is options. That's paramount to some people. I played Warhammer Fantasy for probably an entire two years even after I stopped buying their new products, because I felt there were so many possibly army compositions to try out with just my one or two codecs. Nothing wrong with playing the same squad over and over in X-Wing, but all things get tired eventually and you need more possibilities to keep fresh. X-Wing's in a good spot right now, but I can't imagine that it would have more than a year or maybe two's worth of active following as it is currently. But we only have 18 ships right now, out of I think 26 or something which was their original goal.

So as to the OP's question, I'd play the game a lot still for a few months. Lack of official events would probably lead to playing every now and again for the next year. Really not much after that. Though one thing I hadn't considered until now is how easy X-Wing is to set up, so it might actually see occasional play, especially for Epic games, more often than any other Minis game I own.

As it stands, X-Wing is a wargame. My 100 points vs. your 100 points.

There are epic rules. There are scenarios. But they're not very balanced.

Wargames need new stuff to keep the majority of players engaged. Expansion packs or something. Otherwise, a shinier system somewhere else will lure people in.

For me, for X-Wing to continue to hit my table after they've stopped releasing miniatures, it would need some cohesive official campaign/scenario system. Something like Space Hulk, Descent or Tannhäuser. Something to make it more self-contained.

The only miniatures game that I'm interested in playing after its production run is Blood Bowl.

I was also surprised to find a group still playing Monsterpocalypse the other night. This is nearly 2 years after they ceased production.

State of the game? Freakin' amazing.

You guys have posted some really awesome stuff so far and given me a lot to think about! Thanks for indulging a silly Ph. D candidate who likes to spend way too much time thinking about stuff like this.

They however NEED to keep doing stuff to continue to drive interest in the game and revenue.

Absolutely true. My question is entirely divorced from financial reality and focused on what makes a "good game" in the abstract--whatever that may mean.

If wave 5 were the last, I'd play for a bit more, then a bit less, and then even less. And then my models would become pretty shelf ornaments.

A miniature game systems needs new shinies to keep players interested. If the community shrinks, then the interest shrinks, until it just becomes a thing people talk about. Remember X-Wing. . . We had a huge drop off in interest in the large gap between Wave 3 and Imperial Aces.

Some players are alright with a static rules game like Chess. I'm not one of them.

I agree with this. I've played a lot of minis games, and once they stopped making them things got a little boring, and there were fewer and fewer people to play with (though it seems there is always a core group of players that manage to keep the game going amongst themselves). I'm sure that's what will happen to X-Wing. What I'm less sure of is how steep the curve will be (could be a year or two, but I doubt much more than that). And, of course, I'm sure X-Wing will have that core group that plays and maybe even makes virtual sets (like they are doing with the WOTC Star Wars minis game) after the end of the official game. Fortunately, I think FFG will be making ships for another couple of years (more if they got the license for more than 5 years).

I wonder if there is a distinction here between people who play at home and people who play at their local store. I only really play at home--though I am going to start attending some local tournaments--and view X-Wing almost like Ascension, Seven Wonders, or Cosmic Encounters. They game group comes over every Friday and we pick out a game to play. If that game is X-Wing, we get the box down, pull out the pieces, and set it up just as we would any other board game. New product is exciting--I have built a dozen lists for my new Defender that I haven't gotten to try out yet--but it doesn't really effect how we play the game.

This is, as I understand it, a very different experience from playing at a store or in a league.

The WOTC miniatures game is also a good example of what is, in my mind, a fundamentally different game. The pleasure of that game--much like a card game--is in building a team that synergizes well; discovering powerful and surprising combinations and delighting in seeing how the pieces work together. For me, X-Wing's pleasure is primarily in the Flight Path maneuvering. Even if every ship in the game had the exact same stats (and I'm glad they don't) it would be fun to fly fights around and outmaneuver enemies. The same could not be said for Star Wars minis.

The idea that I'd run out of effective combinations anytime in the near future, is kind of silly. Even playing twice a week, it would take years before I got to the point that I had truly exhausted the combo's and many years before i'd get board with the options I have.

Sure, but at the same time, there are a lot of combos that are simply not worthwhile. (Right, you said 'effective'). But is this game really about building effective combinations? Maybe this is an art that's inherent in those people who play the card games.

Also, the way in which this game invites fans to get creative. Some people like to model, some people like to create missions, some people like to make new rules.

In some way, FFG's production schedule of new stuff provides a bit of a damper on that. I'm afraid to start building the BFF-1 Bulk Freighter, because I think there's a certain probability that before I even get it finished, presto!, it's going to be the next huge ship, and all my time and effort with be displaced by something that will cost $80 on every shelf in every gaming store.

That, or I devise a subtle hyperspace mechanic to use in missions, and then FFG gives us a simple rule in a mission somewhere (they've already done so, to a degree, I know), and my mechanic can't get traction anymore. (Okay, so this is not a major thing, I can always design things the way I want, but this is just to illustrate the point.)

Mikael, I think you're dead on about the way this game invites us to invent our own scenarios and mechanics. While it does sometimes step on our toes, I love the flexibility that it gives us. We can pull out the box of pieces and do a convoy raid, a dogfight, an escort, a last stand, or a thousand different scenarios based on whatever we want to do. Again, I think this has something to do with the elegance of the core rules--though many other mini games could do the same thing.

. No more Sealeds, no more drafts, no new mechanics, nor models, and I realized that these were the things that brought in the crowds, which in turn created the social aspects that made it fun.

So as to the OP's question, I'd play the game a lot still for a few months. Lack of official events would probably lead to playing every now and again for the next year. Really not much after that. Though one thing I hadn't considered until now is how easy X-Wing is to set up, so it might actually see occasional play, especially for Epic games, more often than any other Minis game I own.

I think this is a really wise post. Those first elements that you mention in structured play do sound like a lot of fun and, were I expecting them, it would hard to play without them. The social aspects are the draw and the game helps engineer them, I get that. Release events are a great excuse to gather a big crowd and have a blast. Without that excuse, I can see why it would be harder to get games together. This is a bit of what I touched on above with my distinction between house/game store players and it's very helpful to understanding the different motivations.

I think you also make a good point that X-Wing is quick to set up and play, at least compared to most mini games. This helps it act more like a tradition board game which should extend it's life to some degree, even if it will certainly not remain this popular forever.