Rexler+HLC+Outmaneuver.

Currently the scariest ship in the game to be shot at by. 47 points.

No one else can reliably hit you with 4 crits from Range 3 with -1(-2 functionally) evade dice

How can he get 4 hits reliabily with no roll modifiers?

I'm a huge fan of the 1994 title, Tie Fighter. Also the first debut of the Tie Defender, and storyline associated with it.
One of the biggest disappointments to me about this game is the lack of consistence with the EU. From the source material, the Tie Defender was the fastest (155 MGLT, later revised to 144 MGLT in Alliance) superiority fighter in the galaxy as well as the most manueverable (175 DPF, later revised to 110 DPF in Alliance).
The story reasons were pretty obvious. The Empire needed a high-end ship, but it had the disadvantage of high cost. The story was great because after the Defender was finished, the Empire could begin to decimate all it's enemies as nothing could stop the Defender.. until Zaarin attempts a coup! Now the Empire is screwed. The ship that previously was unbeatable was now beating on the Empire's door. (this in turn caused the development of the missile boat).
So the stats, the reasoning behind it all, made sense.
Fast forward to FFG's X-Wing.
The speed and manueverability are represented by 2 things: the movement dial and actions.
Keep in mind that according to the source material, the Defender should be the fastest most manueverable ship out there.
The fastest a ship can possibly go in X-Wing is a decloak action 2 straight, a 4 straight, and then a boost action 1 straight (which a Phantom with an Engine Upgrade could perform).
The slowest ship in X-Wing can only go 3 straight (Lambda Class Shuttle).
The Defender SHOULD BE the fastest in the game, just as an X-Wing should roll more attack dice than an A-Wing, adhering to storyline elements.
And yet it isn't.
Both the A-Wing and the Tie Interceptor are faster than the Defender, having 5 speed and a boost action to follow.

How FFG answers the question: The Defender has a green 5 speed. And yet, that doesn't make it faster, that just makes it more beneficial when you need to go speed 5.
The most manueverable a ship could possibly be? Tight small turns?
Basically a manueverable ship will be able to 'turn on a dime'. Radius of the turn matters here.
A K1 is a tighter turn than a K5.
A hard 1 is a tighter turn than a hard 3.
A hard 1 immediately followed by a hard 1 is better than a K2. (180* over 1.7 bases vs 180* over 2 bases)
The Tie Defender can perform a white K4. 180* over 4 bases isn't great. Furthermore if a Defender tries to perform those tight hard 1s or 2s it's going to hit a bad spot. Defender hard 1 and 2 turns are RED MANUEVERs.
Somehow, a Tie Fighter / Interceptor / Phantom all have white 1 turns, and the Defender? Nope. No white turns for you.
A Tie Fighter can move 2 hard and perform a barrel roll. The Defender isn't as manueverable, it can't keep up.
A Tie Phantom can move 2 hard and perform a barrel roll. The Defender isn't as manueverable, it can keep up.

I'm really lost.
A standard Y-Wing or HWK w/ a focus token will statistically hit your Defender more times than you evading it.
Those are pretty popular right now.
It just seems to me that the Defenders lack options. "PS 1, PS 3 and two named pilots that don't really synergize with their ships" doesn't seem to be enough choices. In addition, the dial is lackluster and the upcoming meta environment pushes towards handing out stress tokens, something that could ruin a Tie Defender. The Defender has only a 3 hard turn that's not Red. That doesn't give you a lot of options. Especially when the only way to remove stress from a defender is a straight 2-5. That's fairly easily predictable and trumped by any good players on the winning tables.
And that's the problem I have with the Defender. I can see many different lists doing well in this game, but I don't think the options or capabilities of the Defender will work against high-end players.
The lack of non-Red hard turns, the lack of green banks or turns really limits what you can do with the Defender in many situations. This makes it less flexible than most of the other ships you could fly instead, and for a minimum of 30 pts, shouldn't the Defender open the possibilities up, and not hamper them?

Shouldn't the faster you go, the harder it is to go slow?

And your analysis of the dial baffles me. Isn't having ALL those options better than not having those options? The 1 banks gives it some great options over the Fighter and Interceptor. I'm failing to see how that you will use the 1 and 2 turns more than the banks or even it's K-turn. And you dismissing the K-turn shows a lack of playing with the Defender. It is really, really good. And when you think about the Ion Turret on the Defender, the 4 K-turn is really the best option, since that is just about perfect for you to K-turn behind a ship. And unlike the Interceptor or Fighter, you can wiggle behind that ship slowly.

Yes, it isn't the mary sue ship that it was in the games. But don't dismiss it just because it doesn't reach your unreachable expectations.

Shouldn't the faster you go, the harder it is to go slow?

No. The Interceptor and A-Wing both break that mold.

To get the Defender "Right" as you describe it you need to have a ship that is 3-4 3 6 6

That makes it tougher than the Millenium Falcon. It needs to have every manuever in the game, cramming the dial to the point it no longer functions, give it a copious number of actions, and cost it around 50 to 60 points a piece. We don't need or want a ship that does everything, it cannot be balanced. The Defender, while a little overcosted, suffers most from being in the same point range as the Firespray which is frankly amazing.

The Defender was meant to be an uber-unit. In this game there is no place for an uber unit.

To each their own I guess. The boost action to me, seems to be for those that fill an interceptor role, rather than the X-wings and Defenders superiority role. And the more I play the Defender, the more I grow to love the dial. The K-turn is just the beginning. My most common Imperial squad is with a Firespray and Interceptors. I've forgotten how good the 1 bank is. Especially if you don't have the 1 straight. It lets the Defender slow down in a way that the Fighter and Interceptor can't. And I'm unsure why the only acceptable red maneuver is the K-turn or Stop. The 1 turn is good enough, that when I need it, the Defender has it. I love the Defender's dial.

To get the Defender "Right" as you describe it you need to have a ship that is 3-4 3 6 6

That makes it tougher than the Millenium Falcon. It needs to have every manuever in the game, cramming the dial to the point it no longer functions, give it a copious number of actions, and cost it around 50 to 60 points a piece. We don't need or want a ship that does everything, it cannot be balanced. The Defender, while a little overcosted, suffers most from being in the same point range as the Firespray which is frankly amazing.

The Defender was meant to be an uber-unit. In this game there is no place for an uber unit.

I think this is the flaw in many people's thinking. The Defender was never meant to be an "über" unit in this game, but for some reason people expect it to be. It is quite simply, just another unit. It fills roughly the same role as an X-Wing with more health and a dial closer to a basic TIE Fighter. Yes, turns are red, but that doesn't mean that they're not there. For that, it may be overcosted by a point or maybe two, but it feels about right for me.

It fills a similar role as a Firespray, but not the same role. Again people need to stop comparing the two too much. The Defender is a much better straight up fighter-jouster owing to its small base size. This affords it more maneuver space and a lesser chance of action denial. All in all, I have to agree with Sithborg, the more I play it, the more I like it. The basic PS1 Delta squadron pilot has been a real trooper in many of my recent builds.

Now the Empire is screwed. The ship that previously was unbeatable was now beating on the Empire's door. (this in turn caused the development of the missile boat).

So the stats, the reasoning behind it all, made sense.

Fast forward to FFG's X-Wing.

Are you suggesting that we need an "unbeatable" ship in this game? Because that seems to be what you are advocating. Nobody else wants that.

The fastest a ship can possibly go in X-Wing is a decloak action 2 straight, a 4 straight, and then a boost action 1 straight (which a Phantom with an Engine Upgrade could perform).

The slowest ship in X-Wing can only go 3 straight (Lambda Class Shuttle).

This is a bit off-topic, but go get a shuttle and an X-wing. Place them side by side, facing the same direction, with their front edges aligned. Now perform the fastest maneuver for each respective ship. Which one is faster?

A hard 1 immediately followed by a hard 1 is better than a K2. (180* over 1.7 bases vs 180* over 2 bases)

Not if you need to shoot at something behind you. If you do need to shoot at something behind you, you want a maneuver that does the following (in priority order):

1. Changes your orientation 180 degrees
2. Removes stress
3. Lacking #2, does not cause stress
4. Covers an ideal amount of distance

That sounds a lot like the Defender's dial to me. The 4K might not be the best speed in the game, but it is safer than a 2 and more versatile than a 5. If you covered too much distance, you can always follow up with one of your green straight maneuvers. In fact, using your metric above (change in orientation/distance traveled in two maneuvers), you can perform a 180 degree turn in a distance of 0 bases.

A standard Y-Wing or HWK w/ a focus token will statistically hit your Defender more times than you evading it.

The expected damage from a focused 2-die gun is 1.5. The expected result of three focused defense dice is 1.875. If you are talking about primaries, this isn't true. If you are talking about turrets (in which case, why mention Ys and HWKs? 3 dice is kind of standard in this game), the expected damage is 2.25, which is why you have 3 shields and 3 hull.

It just seems to me that the Defenders lack options. "PS 1, PS 3 and two named pilots that don't really synergize with their ships" doesn't seem to be enough choices. In addition, the dial is lackluster and the upcoming meta environment pushes towards handing out stress tokens, something that could ruin a Tie Defender. The Defender has only a 3 hard turn that's not Red. That doesn't give you a lot of options.

This is my last point. I think that the pilot options for this ship are fantastic. PS1 and 3 means that you don't have to spend extra points for 2 and 4. Vessery scoffs at the red on his dial because -- as long as you are supporting him with a bomber, shuttle, or TIE fighter with a Targeting Computer -- he gets to modify his attack. He can also K-turn after his hard 1-turn, which mitigates a lot of the red on the dial (of course, this is not limited to Vessery). Brath is extremely powerful against large ships generally, the Millennium Falcon particularly, and especially so against Chewbacca (and guess who is the most prolific named pilot in the tournament meta right now).

The Defender is a good ship. We will see soon enough whether or not it is appropriately costed.

I loved the defender in tie fighter but you cant bring that into the game without breaking it badly, i'm happy with what we got it fills a role that went empty before and we dont know what upgrades are coming in the future which may make it shine even more.

I loved the defender in tie fighter but you cant bring that into the game without breaking it badly, i'm happy with what we got it fills a role that went empty before and we dont know what upgrades are coming in the future which may make it shine even more.

This is EXACTLY the point here!!! You have nailed it! "...I am happy with what we got, it fills a role that went empty..."

It [Tie Defender] fills "a role" that went empty: Yes it does! To a lot of people who have played the original Tie Fighter computer game and who are familiar with the Tie Defender from the numerous other EU sources however the role that the FFG T/D is filling has absolutely nothing to do with an EU T/D. They could have just as easily called this rule set an Assault Gun Boat or a Scimitar Bomber! If you showed me the FFG rule set (dial and stats) and you told me that it was for a Tie Defender I would have just scratched my head in confusion.

This is where I think most people diverge. On one side, there is a group that didn't much care for the EU T/D saying: wait a second, this is not a horrible ship, you can K-Turn and give it a heavy laser. It can work, especially in Epic play against big ships with Brath (again something for bombers).

The EU T/D enthusiasts on the other hand are asking WTF is this! No boost, no evade, only 3 shields and most of all no sensor slot. Easily predictable dial in a competitive environment, horribly low pilot skill pilots, interceptors can run circles around you indefinitely and terrible action economy compared to our Expanded Universe expectations.

Both sides are correct in their arguments and it seems that we just need to agree to disagree. Non-EU players have no reason to go back in time and fall in love with the old interpretations of the T/D and EU players have little reason to field the FFG T/D.

I still don't manage to see what role it does fill. So i will let the better minds to figure it out while i play other stuff.

I still don't manage to see what role it does fill. So i will let the better minds to figure it out while i play other stuff.

It's probably the most reliable Imperial ship. It's dial lets it get anywhere you need it to go. It can survive some bad defense rolls and it also puts out a good amount of damage. It's also the best HLC platform in the game.

My favorite way to use it is with an HLC Delta. I just slowly move forward while having my academies block to deny actions. At PS1 I get focus every turn. I stay in the back so I'm lobbing off 4 dice range 2 and 3 attacks. At that range, other people have a hell of a time damaging me back. Then when the other team gets too close, I just k-turn behind them and it starts all over again.

I think that the reason people find the Defender hard to like (or at least use) is that it's a difficult ship to label and/or quantify. It has a frankly ridiculous stat-line for an imperial small-base, a strange combination of upgrades (again, for an imperial small-base), and the weirdest maneuver dial any of us have ever seen. I think that rather than being detrimental to the ship, all of these things greatly benefit its versatility and unpredictability. Long story short (Too late!), It is unlike any other ship in the game, and that is a very good thing.

I think that the reason people find the Defender hard to like (or at least use) is that it's a difficult ship to label and/or quantify. It has a frankly ridiculous stat-line for an imperial small-base, a strange combination of upgrades (again, for an imperial small-base), and the weirdest maneuver dial any of us have ever seen. I think that rather than being detrimental to the ship, all of these things greatly benefit its versatility and unpredictability. Long story short (Too late!), It is unlike any other ship in the game, and that is a very good thing.

This is where I think most people diverge. On one side, there is a group that didn't much care for the EU T/D saying: wait a second, this is not a horrible ship, you can K-Turn and give it a heavy laser. It can work, especially in Epic play against big ships with Brath (again something for bombers).

The EU T/D enthusiasts on the other hand are asking WTF is this! No boost, no evade, only 3 shields and most of all no sensor slot. Easily predictable dial in a competitive environment, horribly low pilot skill pilots, interceptors can run circles around you indefinitely and terrible action economy compared to our Expanded Universe expectations.

Both sides are correct in their arguments and it seems that we just need to agree to disagree. Non-EU players have no reason to go back in time and fall in love with the old interpretations of the T/D and EU players have little reason to field the FFG T/D.

An interesting idea, but I don't think that there's any evidence for this. EU players are able to discuss their nostalgia of the Tie Defender when they express their disappointment about the ship, but that does not mean the nostalgia is the primary cause of disappointment. Their nostalgia may also be a source of ideas of how the ship could be improved to make it more appealing to field. There are a lot of glaring issues with the ship and it seems rather silly to say that most of the people that take issue with it are motivated mostly by their expectations.

As a non-EU player that has fielded the ship a lot, I can't justify the cost in a 100 point list and I've speculated about what's missing. Expectations or no, the ship has terrible action economy. Only clearing stress by straight maneuvers is a universally bad trait. It takes a lot of options off the table and as stress becomes a larger component of the game, the worse this problem gets. Hell, the ship comes with an engine upgrade, but it's not worth fielding it on a small ship with bad action economy. Engine upgrade works fantastic on large ships that have systems upgrades and/or gunner, which help compensate for the fact that you used your only action to boost. We don't need expectations or nostalgia to come to this conclusion. It just seems like it's missing something at that price point and some have speculated that FFG probably overvalued the K-turn.

Personally, I hope we see clever lists in which the Defender is worth its weight in gold. I want to see why FFG decided that the PS1 ship is worth almost a third of your points. I want to see why they gave a 35 point ship a pilot skill that is completely list dependent, especially so for imperials. I want to see it succeed. But unless that happens, I think we'll continue to question its cost effectiveness, which, regardless of the ship's role, is the crux of the issue.

And if you do block the K-turn? So what, it isn't like it has to then do a green maneuver to clear the stress. If they block your K-turn, you are in far better position than any other ship.

The dial takes a little getting used to sure. You are likely to be using banks more than many are used to. I just fail to see how a dial with that many options is in any way predictable. If you have a stress, maybe. But, I think some may have to learn, sometimes, you can do fine without an action.

And if you do block the K-turn? So what, it isn't like it has to then do a green maneuver to clear the stress. If they block your K-turn, you are in far better position than any other ship.

The dial takes a little getting used to sure. You are likely to be using banks more than many are used to. I just fail to see how a dial with that many options is in any way predictable. If you have a stress, maybe. But, I think some may have to learn, sometimes, you can do fine without an action.

Look it's clearly a marmite ship some like it some don't, and you'll never convince the other side just with opinion.

Can't we just be happy to have choice.

Look it's clearly a marmite ship some like it some don't, and you'll never convince the other side just with opinion.

Can't we just be happy to have choice.

And frankly, it is a dissapointing ship for a lot of people. I'm just happy the Phantom is awesome. But the Defender is far from unfixable. A few new Cannon optionsod missiles could leave it just fine. But it is the Advanced(worst ship) of the Wave(With the E-Wing being the Y-Wing.)

I guess I just have a hard time accepting that K-turns and Stops are the only maneuvers that are worth taking a stress for. Along with the "common" wisdom of taking a green maneuver immediately after you take a stress.

I really wish Rexler had a different ability. i have played him quite a few games now and not once have I ever had the opportunity to actually use his ability. I keep him around basically just for the pilot skill at this point

I guess I just have a hard time accepting that K-turns and Stops are the only maneuvers that are worth taking a stress for. Along with the "common" wisdom of taking a green maneuver immediately after you take a stress.

On a B-Wing with a green 1 forward and 1 banks that stessful one turn is great. On the defender it's a far bigger gamble. Much like the Don't K-Turn with the falcon ever.

First point:
Why do ships have point values? They have point values to represent the relative power of those ships.
A 20 point ship should fair better than a 12 point ship.
Those point values help maintain balance in the game.

The argument that you can't have the Defender be as strong as the EU has defined it is a fallacy. The game balance mechanic is built into the game as points. Balance can be acquired accordingly. Any other presumption pushes the idea that there is indeed no balance mechanism in the game.

Next point:
The Defender is not as manueverable as it should be.
This game is X-Wing. It's not Wing Commander, Macross, Wings of Fury, Gundam, or any other genre out there. It's based around movies and lore that have been defined. A Tie Fighter should be defined around the information gathered from the appropriate lore sources and should be relatively close to how it's represented in the lore. The game is trying to simulate the lore within relative balance. Balance can be maintained with point cost. The Falcon, for example should have turrets, the Tie Bomber should hold bombs, so on and so forth. The lore that describes the Defender paints a clear picture of its' speed and manueverability. It's does not conform to anything near being highly manueverable. The Tie Defender should absolutely be more manueverable than a Tie Fighter. The Defender's manueverability vs an Interceptor is debatable, and yet it should still be within a close 2nd at worst to the Interceptor.

Example:
The Tie Fighter, Tie Phantom and Tie Interceptor can all make a Hard 1 turn AND perform an action without purchasing any additional upgrades or having any sort of support ships around.

The Tie Fighter can hard 1-2 AND focus, evade, barrel roll, or take any additional upgrade actions.
The Tie Defender cannot hard 1-2 AND focus, target lock, barrel roll, or take any additional upgrade actions.

Fin:
Look, I'm not asking FFG to give the Defender 6 shields, 5 cannons and kitchen sink.
I feel that the Defender is done a disservice as it is in the game currently.
All I really want is the manueverability to be represented on the dial and the action bar.
Red hard turns are not acceptable in my viewpoint for a ship that should clearly turn more easily than a Tie Fighter.
If FFG ever did update the Defender to be more expensive, traded out the dial for the Interceptor and added a boost action, I'd probably buy a flight ticket to Minnesota and buy everyone at FFG a couple rounds at the local bar.

I'm unsure if this is true or not, but I feel like the Defender must have been overlooked in playtesting. My guess is this was the result of needing to over-playtest the new "cloaking" mechanic on the Phantom.

I guess I just have a hard time accepting that K-turns and Stops are the only maneuvers that are worth taking a stress for. Along with the "common" wisdom of taking a green maneuver immediately after you take a stress.

Stress is more significant for the Defender than almost any other ship. I think that's the point. It's not about which maneuvers stress you and whether or not they're worth it.

Why is it more significant?

1. Green maneuvers are all straight. You don't have to clear stress, no, but if you wanted to, well, there's only one direction you can go. Having to stay stressed in order to be less predictable just drives the point home that it suffers from terrible action economy and the green dial has a lot to do with it.

2. The cheapest Defender costs almost a third of your points. You don't want to get caught under fire without that defensive focus. It's too big of an investment.

If you haven't, give this ship a good run, preferably in situations where stress is relevant.

I like the game design decisions made on the Defender. It doesn't make any sense as portrayed in the lore. Bigger! Faster! Tougher! More Maneuverable! More Guns! It doesn't make any trade-offs, whereas almost everything else does. FFG took that background and focused on the Bigger/Faster/Tougher/More Guns aspect, which has a ton of precedence in actual military aircraft (which the Star Wars fighters are sort of supposed to emulate). If the TIE fighter is a Zero, the Defender is the Thunderbolt.