Just because something should go down fast, doesn't mean it will. I've been playing Defender lists like crazy since Imdaar, and the thing has almost never let me down. On paper, it's easy to say "oh well you just focus him down," but that overlooks a lot of things:

1. Deployment- Rexler pops on the table at PS 8, after much of the board for most lists has been established. A smart player will deploy him where he can utilize his high speed maneuvers early to get into a good flanking position, even if it takes him a round later than the rest of the squad to fire.

2. Asteroids- Thanks to number 1, a smart player can also position him in a spot that forces the rest of the opponent's squad to be drawn through asteroid fields in order to reach him. This either controls their firing arcs, adds extra evade dice, or breaks apart the enemy squadron (thus limiting focus fire and potentially aiding the rest of your squad in selecting good targets).

3. Your Squad- If you do manage to draw the bulk of the opponents to Rexler, it's entirely possible that the rest of the squad you bring will light them up, either softening them up or killing them before they become a serious threat. And if you've planned your asteroids and maneuvers just right then...

4. Once more, with Gusto: … then your 4 k-turn leaves them completely screwed. Especially if k-turning for them would be a one-way ticket to Asteroid City. Even if they k-turn to meet you, they're now on your field as they're at a disadvantage.

However, if your opponent has planned for number 4, and come in waves/staggered advance to block your k-turn, then the 3-turn or 3-bank make excellent Get Outta Dodge maneuvers (or at least they have in my personal experience). And when all else fails, sometimes those 3 dice just love you, and you survive long past when another ship would have perished. About a third of my Defender wins have been thanks to dice luck, but it's a dice luck that is possible because of the combination of evasion and HP. You can actually survive an unlucky round to be lucky next time.

With the prevalence of anti-Phantom lists currently, I am really tempted to try out this list:

Rexler Brath + Outmaneuver

Echo + VI + ACD

Doomshuttle

Not entirely sure it would be super competitive, but if flown just right it could surprise a few people. Against Chewie or Han lists, it presents three legitimate threats that the opponent needs to figure out how to prioritize. Brath is obviously the juiciest target, but pursuing him at the expense of Echo and the Doomshuttle running rampant could be deadly. And obviously, if the YT stupidly focuses on Echo, that leaves Brath to *hopefully* tear it to shreds. It's sort of a best of all worlds list. That being said it could just as easily fall flat on its face. Thoughts?

Thoughts? Not sure… what's your exact Doom Shuttle build?

A simple OGP+Vader. It's a grenade, so I figure it's best not to load it with anything more than is required.

Well, let's see then:

I like Echo and Brath firing at the same time. it gives you a better chance to get Rexler's ability through as it may bleed off shields/defensive tokens. I was never a huge fan of the Vader shuttle, I like it more as a support and tactical gunboat ship (which it works surprisingly well as thanks to Vessery's abilities). But it seems that this is a good, competent list, but one that rewards tactical skill and deployment strategy almost more than flight strategy (not to downplay that aspect though, it requires both).

I like it!

Just promise not to use it against me the next time I'm at the Gamer's Sanctuary!

Bugger all! You're there with me, eh? That's not John, is it?

Besides, you know I make my own lists.

Just because something should go down fast, doesn't mean it will. I've been playing Defender lists like crazy since Imdaar, and the thing has almost never let me down. On paper, it's easy to say "oh well you just focus him down," but that overlooks a lot of things:

1. Deployment- Rexler pops on the table at PS 8, after much of the board for most lists has been established. A smart player will deploy him where he can utilize his high speed maneuvers early to get into a good flanking position, even if it takes him a round later than the rest of the squad to fire.

2. Asteroids- Thanks to number 1, a smart player can also position him in a spot that forces the rest of the opponent's squad to be drawn through asteroid fields in order to reach him. This either controls their firing arcs, adds extra evade dice, or breaks apart the enemy squadron (thus limiting focus fire and potentially aiding the rest of your squad in selecting good targets).

3. Your Squad- If you do manage to draw the bulk of the opponents to Rexler, it's entirely possible that the rest of the squad you bring will light them up, either softening them up or killing them before they become a serious threat. And if you've planned your asteroids and maneuvers just right then...

4. Once more, with Gusto: … then your 4 k-turn leaves them completely screwed. Especially if k-turning for them would be a one-way ticket to Asteroid City. Even if they k-turn to meet you, they're now on your field as they're at a disadvantage.

However, if your opponent has planned for number 4, and come in waves/staggered advance to block your k-turn, then the 3-turn or 3-bank make excellent Get Outta Dodge maneuvers (or at least they have in my personal experience). And when all else fails, sometimes those 3 dice just love you, and you survive long past when another ship would have perished. About a third of my Defender wins have been thanks to dice luck, but it's a dice luck that is possible because of the combination of evasion and HP. You can actually survive an unlucky round to be lucky next time.

Well yeah. I think you should know by now, especially with this thread, that I'm a fan of this ship and I don't personally think it has a problem as far as survivability is concern.

I was speaking specifically with the proposed build. I don't think pairing Rexler with a Field Officer Shuttle is worth it just so you can activate his ability. It cost too much and doesn't bring enough to the table; you are putting all your eggs in the same basket and that's what I don't like. It would have been any other ship and I would have said the same. It also 'force' you to fly close to the Shuttle, so it makes you more predicatable and doesn't allow you to flank. Of course, you could decide to fly far to keep your opponent guessing but then, why bother with the combo?

Sure, the Defender will not go down fast every games, but when he will, it is pretty much game over. Like you, I've played a lot of Defender since I got mine, I know they can be unkillable machine or blow up without putting much of a fight. You got to keep them as unpredictable as you can, and forcing yourself to fly close to a Shuttle just so you can get a second Focus is not worth it. Not in my book anyway.

You got to keep them as unpredictable as you can

See, I've been approaching running them from more of a "control" school of thought. I don't try to be unpredictable, though sometimes I'm amazed at how often people don't see a 3-bank coming. What I prefer to do is approach from about 30-40 degrees (or rather, from the target's 10 or 2) and strafe them, followed by a k-turn or accelerate out of contact and pick another target. I've found that dogging a target for more than a turn or two under most circumstances is folly, better to heavily damage and then let the tighter turning fighters play cleanup. The red turns on the Defender don't let it function well in protracted turning engagements.

So it's not so much "unpredictable" as "physically impossible for them to follow me".

Anyway, as for the shuttle, you don't have to keep them together. Just deploy them so that they'll be close to each other by about turn 3-4, have them move in from opposite sides of the field. You know that most of the engagement is going to be in the middle of the board, games almost always end up there.

• Falcons are seeing massive play because they are a counter to Phantoms.
• Falcons are doing well because Swarms are virtually non-existent (save for one Regionals in Germany)
• Swarms are nearly extinct because people are afraid of Phantoms.

Oh I very much agree this is exactly what we are seeing with these results. And that is exactly why the meta is appearing very very silly. You can't not throw rock because paper exists, because then everyone just throws scissors. But more importantly there is more then just Swarm, Phantom, or Falcon; there are things in-between. I feel very strongly that there are things that can be positioned well as foils for the Falcon or Phantom while seeking an even match-up with the other. Does it involve a Defender, maybe.

This is the first Wave that has really given the game a kick in the pants. Yeah the Falcon was different but that just took the game from 4 X's vs Swarms to slight variety. Wave 3 didn't change the game so much as it did the players in what was already working. Now we are finally seeing the game with a decent number of true choices available to players when building a squad. Players aren't use to this so they are oversimplifying what's available. I mean people are honestly acting that after a month of Wave 4 that the books been written on the current "meta".

But regardless of all that if someone asked me what they should run in an event tomorrow I'd tell them a TiE Swarm since everyone is over-correcting for the Phantom and just playing super accurate Falcons, some in 2 ship builds. You have to throw rock into the mix sometimes. Especially when it isn't a complete auto-loss vs paper anyway

I think it really does throw people when you don't k-turn a number of times my friend planned moves thinking I'd mindlessly do that and was thrown by my 3 turning.

And to date I've only lost generic defenders I've not lost a named pilot yet the ps means I kill the threat before it shoots most of the time.

Just because something should go down fast, doesn't mean it will. I've been playing Defender lists like crazy since Imdaar, and the thing has almost never let me down. On paper, it's easy to say "oh well you just focus him down," but that overlooks a lot of things:

1. Deployment- Rexler pops on the table at PS 8, after much of the board for most lists has been established. A smart player will deploy him where he can utilize his high speed maneuvers early to get into a good flanking position, even if it takes him a round later than the rest of the squad to fire.

2. Asteroids- Thanks to number 1, a smart player can also position him in a spot that forces the rest of the opponent's squad to be drawn through asteroid fields in order to reach him.

Just because something should go down fast, doesn't mean it will. I've been playing Defender lists like crazy since Imdaar, and the thing has almost never let me down. On paper, it's easy to say "oh well you just focus him down," but that overlooks a lot of things:

1. Deployment- Rexler pops on the table at PS 8, after much of the board for most lists has been established. A smart player will deploy him where he can utilize his high speed maneuvers early to get into a good flanking position, even if it takes him a round later than the rest of the squad to fire.

2. Asteroids- Thanks to number 1, a smart player can also position him in a spot that forces the rest of the opponent's squad to be drawn through asteroid fields in order to reach him.

A smart player wouldn't play this ship.

A truly smart player would be able to figure out how to use this ship effectively, instead of dismissing it entirely after a couple of goes...

And that is exactly why the meta is appearing very very silly. You can't not throw rock because paper exists, because then everyone just throws scissors. But more importantly there is more then just Swarm, Phantom, or Falcon; there are things in-between...

I agree, particularly with the not-auto-lose bit. Even rock-paper-scissors is an oversimplification of the swarm/Falcon/Phantom relationship: it depends on the swarm and the Falcon list. Chewie/Biggs/Tarn is a very different list than Han + 3x Talas, and Howlrunner with five Scimitars is a very different list from Soontir/Howlrunner+ST/Black+ST/3x Academy.

A smart player wouldn't play this ship.

Hi! You're new, so I'll cut you a bit of slack. That's a difficult claim to support in a thread full of people discussing how and in what ways you might be able to play Defenders successfully. If you'd like to give some reasons why you think the Defender is a bad idea, and stick around to engage with the people who disagree with you, you'd be adding to the discussion, and I'd respect it* even if I disagreed with you.

But just wandering in and calling people stupid is noise, and frankly we have enough of that around here. Don't be noise.

(*Probably.)

But just wandering in and calling people stupid is noise, and frankly we have enough of that around here. Don't be noise.(*Probably.)

But just wandering in and calling people stupid is noise, and frankly we have enough of that around here. Don't be noise.(*Probably.)

Do not put words in my mouth. I never called anyone stupid.

No actually you did and while you may have thought you were being subtle about it you were in fact not.

But just wandering in and calling people stupid is noise, and frankly we have enough of that around here. Don't be noise.(*Probably.)

Do not put words in my mouth. I never called anyone stupid.

From Merriam-Webster:

¹Stupid: not intelligent : having or showing a lack of ability to learn and understand things.

So yes, saying someone is not smart is the same as calling them stupid.

But I do agree with Vorpal Sword, I am more than happy to have a debate based on actual evidence (either factual or opinionated really). See the previous pages with Major Juggler. I have mad respect for what he is doing with the number crunching, we don't agree on certain things, but at least his arguments hold water. Intelligent people debate intelligently.

Anyway, as for the shuttle, you don't have to keep them together. Just deploy them so that they'll be close to each other by about turn 3-4, have them move in from opposite sides of the field. You know that most of the engagement is going to be in the middle of the board, games almost always end up there.

You see, that's the thing. When you want a ship to flank, you need to make your main team a threat. In that case, I would go against the Defender and try to get rid of him as fast as possible since I don't consider a Shuttle and 2 Tie a big threat. It is, but Rexler is the big torn here.

So, first thing that can go wrong is that the Defender will go down to concentrated fire. Of course It might not, but there is the possibility that should not be discounted. So if it does survive, you get to the middle, in range 2 of the Shuttle, and get the Focus token, You move at 8 and the Shuttle move at 2, so technically, you should get in the middle a little bit faster with Rexler or you'll skip another turn. Now, when finally in position to have a double focus shot, you need to have a ship that don't have shield anymore (so the focus can be useful to trigger your ability) in line of sight. Also, once in the close fight, Field Officer give a stress, so if you want to use it next round, you'll have to do a green maneuver. Shuttle can also be easy to block, especially if stuck to do a green.

So, realistically, you'll be able to give a double focus to Rexler what, 2 maybe 3 time per game if he survive the alpha strike. I just think that paying 24pts, 28 in that case since there is also an Engine Upgrade on it, is just too much for a benefit you are not even sure to use during the game. For the same points, I would prefer a doomshuttle like Expat suggested later, or 2 more TIe Fighter so you have Rexler on one side and a Mini Swarm boosted by Howlrunner on the other, both offer a threat.

But just wandering in and calling people stupid is noise, and frankly we have enough of that around here. Don't be noise.(*Probably.)

Do not put words in my mouth. I never called anyone stupid.

Perhaps I characterized your position unfairly. Let's look at it again, making sure to keep the context intact:

A smart player will deploy [brath] where he can utilize his high speed maneuvers early to get into a good flanking position, even if it takes him a round later than the rest of the squad to fire.

...a smart player can also position him in a spot that forces the rest of the opponent's squad to be drawn through asteroid fields in order to reach him.

A smart player wouldn't play this ship.

On that basis, I'll clarify: You wandered in and insulted the intelligence of That One Guy specifically, although you never used the word "stupid".

To repeat myself further, it would be useful engagement if you explained why That One Guy's notes on how to play Brath intelligently were wrong, or more generally what your objections to the Defender are. What you're doing now is just the equivalent of spitting on the sidewalk in front of someone's feet: it doesn't communicate anything but disdain.

And now I'm done with this; I'll get back to you when you have something useful to say.

So, first thing that can go wrong is that the Defender will go down to concentrated fire. Of course It might not, but there is the possibility that should not be discounted.

That's a decent objection to the Fleet Officer strategy except that Brath with double focus is actually a pretty effective turtle, and the rest of the list (including a shuttle, albeit with unmodified attacks) is going to be coming up behind you while you try to dig through those 6 hit points on 3 Agility. That's a pretty effective tactical fork.

A smart player wouldn't play this ship.

Tsk tsk... that's a very biased statement to make....

I tried out Brath with VI & HLC, Backstabber, and 3 Obsidian Squadron Pilots, and I'm really liking it. They do a nice job of covering each other's weaknesses. The game was against Chewy/3PO/Luke + 2 Rookie Pilots, and the Imperials won (although the Rebel player was fairly inexperienced and made some maneuvering mistakes that probably made the game less close than it should have been). The TIE fighters are great turners and close in dogfighters. Brath hangs back and pounds on stuff with his HLC. As expected, his ability wasn't really important. The other player ends up having to make some pretty tough decisions. Do you shoot at close-in TIEs who haven't fired, or invest in taking out Brath at longer range? TIE fighters are great in the scrum, and close range really mitigates their 2 die attack. I could get multiple 3 dice attacks from the TIEs each turn (sometimes 4 with Backstabber).

Theoretically (I haven't had the practical experience), a PS10 Brath helps protect the mini-swarm from Phantoms. They don't know where he's going, and he gets his artillery before they get to cloak.

So, first thing that can go wrong is that the Defender will go down to concentrated fire. Of course It might not, but there is the possibility that should not be discounted.

That's a decent objection to the Fleet Officer strategy except that Brath with double focus is actually a pretty effective turtle, and the rest of the list (including a shuttle, albeit with unmodified attacks) is going to be coming up behind you while you try to dig through those 6 hit points on 3 Agility. That's a pretty effective tactical fork.

But in the approach suggested, Starting the opposite of the Shuttle, you won't have double focus to turtle up; you are on your own against the Alpha. Yes, 6 hit point with 3 agility can be hard to get through, but it can also go down pretty fast. It just look like too much of a gamble to me to think that I can reliably win with this team. If all things goes well, of course it is deadly, but things can also go south pretty fast, and when it does, there is not much left to help you. Unlike other teams, I feel like this one bet on surviving the initial strike instead of making an effective one. Might be just me and my playstyle though.

Another way to look at it, which combo do you think will be the more reliable?

Rexler + Predaor

Shuttle + Field Officer + Engine Upgrade ( we'll switch it for Advanced Sensor here if you're like me and would prefer it to help against clearing the Red by using Field Officer before doing a Green, deny the potential block to prevent you from taking actions)

or

Vessery + Veteran Instinct + Engine Upgrade (or for a 1-2 point difference, just take Vessery + HLC)

Shuttle + ST-321 title + Weapon Engineer

Another way to look at it, which combo do you think will be the more reliable?

Rexler + Predaor

Shuttle + Field Officer + Engine Upgrade ( we'll switch it for Advanced Sensor here if you're like me and would prefer it to help against clearing the Red by using Field Officer before doing a Green, deny the potential block to prevent you from taking actions)

or

Vessery + Veteran Instinct + Engine Upgrade (or for a 1-2 point difference, just take Vessery + HLC)

Shuttle + ST-321 title + Weapon Engineer

Tough call. I really like Vessery, but Brath + Predator is a lot more appealing against low-hull targets (where a single face-up damage card stands a good chance of crippling or killing them).