For my part, I finally got to play against a swarm today with my current defender list (2x Delta with HLC and Janus with Predator) and as expected, it didn't go well. I'll have to try a different approach cause they are vulnerable to concentrated fire.

The strenght of this team is against high value ships. Two HLC shot with focus and 2 dice reroll is very nasty but, if the only targets are of little value, things can go wrong fast, especially if dice is not on your side. Next time, I'll try not to fly in formation. You don't really need the rerolls against Tie anyway. Although oneshoting Howlrunner with Hull upgrade was nice....

I've been trying to figure out a good Defender list with 4 TIE fighters (because everything is good with a mini-swarm), and just had a test game against XXBB with the following:

Rexler Brath, Veteran Instincts, HLC 45

Howlrunner, Adrenaline Rush 19

Academy Pilot 12

Academy Pilot 12

Academy Pilot 12

I've thought about a similar list, only I was planning on flying Rexler with the swarm:

Rexler + Predator

Howlrunner + Hull Upgrade

3x Academy Pilot

this leaves 3 points for either a) swarm tactics on Howlrunner b) Hull Upgrade on Rexler c) 3 obsidians instead of Academy (to counter Predator) d) Predator on Howlrunner (I've had a lot of fun with Jonus+Predator) e) Proton Rockets on Rexler once it is out

This list is to maximize Rexler ability by giving him 2 dice reroll (Predator+Howlrunner). This way he can keep his focus to trigger his ability or for defense.

In that list, you might think about an BSP+ Decoy (16 total points).

Brath, Predator: 40

BSP, Decoy: 16

Howlrunner: 18

Black Squadron Pilot: 14

Academy Pilot: 12

You don't get awesome Howlrunner stuff happening, but you get a certain sort of synergy with Brath. When optimal, you switch PS with the BSP with Decoy, firing in the 3rd or 4th spot. That lets Howlrunner and a couple BSPs strip shields before Brath puts damage into hull. It's not as efficient, though, and may not be worth it just for making Brath use his ability a bit better.

The ability is a bonus, you shouldn't look too hard to look synergies to use it, because at the end of the day, the crit cards are random too. Predator is fine, because predator on its own is great for basically everything.

I have discovered a new problem with the Defender. Apparently, when flying Rexlar Brath, once you get a ship into an ideal position to unleash his ability, you start rolling crits anyway...

I have discovered a new problem with the Defender. Apparently, when flying Rexlar Brath, once you get a ship into an ideal position to unleash his ability, you start rolling crits anyway...

**** Defenders, can't they do something correctly?

I ran Rexler at Regionals in Plano, TX. Him w/ Predator, Ion, Doomshuttle and Soontir w/ PTL and hull upgrade took me to the top 8. With the overcompensation for Phantoms, I saw 7 YT-1300s over 5 games in addition to the other 3 I played. Rexler was beastly against the big ships while Vader racked up 10 kills (including himself one time!). Really, the weakest link I found was Soontir with all the gunners and turrets flying around.

Did a 150 point game Saturday took 3 defenders and a shuttle versus lando falcon, b-wing,2 x-wings and a pair of headhunter, friend spent three turns of concentrated fire taking out my shuttle while rexlar and vessery took out the falcon, ps1 defender died next but took one of the headhunters with him, then with 3 full health ships and a b-wing on four hit points my two defenders were without shields but didn't take a single hit as they tore apart the larger force.

He had more numbers and more firepower but I had the defender so it balanced out, HLC really is the perfect fit for the named pilots.

Tried the following in a friendly game.

Col. Vessery with Outmaneuver, and a friendly Target Lock.

-1 Agi to his target if he is out of arc and cancels the use of C3P0.

Add Cluster Missiles if you have the points and watch stuff go boom.

He (hopefully) fires with Focus, gains TL.

Rolls his first attack.

Gains TL.

Rolls his second attack.

Thinking about the Brath + TIE flight again:

I've used Howlrunner + 3 Academies for a reliably punchy element. As an alternative, I'm considering Backstabber + 3 Obsidians. It doesn't have as much straight on power, but has the extra die from Backstabber, and the Obsidians won't be as vulnerable to Predator, and will get to shoot before some commonly used ships.

I'm thinking that the vast increase in Falcon usage will help the adoption of the Defender. The Defender (especially Vessery/Brath w/ Outmaneuver and HLC) just poops on Falcons.

In another note, I played a game the other day with Vessery w/ Outmaneuver and HLC. Vessery 1-shot TWO separate X-Wings during that game. Granted it included lucky crit pulling and unlucky defense rolling, but still...

Well, I think this thread is done.

Clearly from all the posts the Defender is competitive and has no issues.

Just check all of its' top 8 placings..

Well, I think this thread is done.

Clearly from all the posts the Defender is competitive and has no issues.

Just check all of its' top 8 placings..

Worth noting that aggregating the top tournament lists are an indicator of not only what's good but what people perceive as good. (That doesn't invalidate the yeoman's work Rakky Wistol and MajorJuggler are doing, but it is a giant caveat to keep in mind when you start moving from analysis to interpretation.)

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that every list built around a Defender had a 80% win rate. If the conversation around them is so overwhelmingly negative that Defenders are still only included in one out of every fifty tournament lists, then in a 32-player Regional there's less than a 50% chance of seeing one, and of those Regionals that do include a Defender list, somewhere around a quarter of those go 3-2 and miss the top 8.

I'm not claiming that's the case, but I think it helps provide some context. Defenders had a negative reputation long before anyone but playtesters had their hands on the real thing, and their absence from majors could plausibly be about the Defender's reputation (particularly in conjunction with the growing-but-small sample size of Wave 4 Regionals) rather than its performance on the table.

We're not likely to see the Defenders, as I'm assuming people are thinking Phantom or anti-Phantom. As much as I love the Defender, it isn't exactly an anti-Phantom ship. And outside Rexlar, you need to do some major upgrading to get it into anti-Falcon territory.

Still sad that against a freshly deshielded shuttle, Rexlar still rolled 2 crits and a hit. Why bother using it for one extra hit?

Based on the results we do have people should be looking at anti-anti-Phantom list instead.

Based on the results we do have people should be looking at anti-anti-Phantom list instead.

No kidding. It bears repeating that at the 26-player Denver regionals, there was one Phantom list and twenty-five lists built around Phantom counters--and every single one of the top eight players was running either Han or Chewie.

EDIT: I lied. I think there was one guy in the top 8 with Wes/Wedge/Corran.

Now, if only there were a Defender pilot that could reliably pile up crits against Falcons...

Oh wait..

I'm not saying its a Defender with Outmanuver and HLC that fills that role, though maybe it has a place. But people do not seem to be forcing Falcon lists to play uphill. Either they get a even match or what they are built to play against.

Outmaneuver is a beautiful thing. Heck, I've been running it on Vader, and it has allowed him to be very nasty against a lot of things.

In all fairness, I think that Outmaneuver is the biggest counter to the Falcon. Once it is paired with Rexler Brath and an HLC it becomes even more deadly due to Brath's special ability. If you don't want to add another 10 points to him, Predator alone works wonders with him since it gives him that added bonus of holding on to his focus for extra critical damage.

And I think this is one of those particular instances where the Defender really outshines the Firespray. (I am not saying it is better than the Firespray, just pointing to particular role that fits in to more efficiently.)

Brath + Outmaneuver + HLC = 47 points

Kath Scarlet (the cheapest Firespray pilot with an EPT) + Outmaneuver + HLC = 48 points

For one less point you get a higher pilot skill and a much more useful pilot ability against YT-1300's. You also get the small base ship with a white k-turn, which is far more suited for the HLC since it can't be used from the Firespray's rear arc. For just using the front firing arc, I would give the edge in maneuverability to the Defender as well. You do sacrifice the tank-iness of the Firespray (10 down to 6), but with the smaller base you can arc dodge the non-YT ships better.

All in all, as an Outmaneuver + HLC platform, the Defender is far more efficient than the Firespray IMO.

Worth noting that aggregating the top tournament lists are an indicator of not only what's good but what people perceive as good. (That doesn't invalidate the yeoman's work Rakky Wistol and MajorJuggler are doing, but it is a giant caveat to keep in mind when you start moving from analysis to interpretation.)

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that every list built around a Defender had a 80% win rate. If the conversation around them is so overwhelmingly negative that Defenders are still only included in one out of every fifty tournament lists, then in a 32-player Regional there's less than a 50% chance of seeing one, and of those Regionals that do include a Defender list, somewhere around a quarter of those go 3-2 and miss the top 8.

I'm not claiming that's the case, but I think it helps provide some context. Defenders had a negative reputation long before anyone but playtesters had their hands on the real thing, and their absence from majors could plausibly be about the Defender's reputation (particularly in conjunction with the growing-but-small sample size of Wave 4 Regionals) rather than its performance on the table.

This bears repeating. A lot of what we are seeing is based on people perhaps overcompensating for Phantoms and leaving themselves vulnerable. At the Plano regionals I ran across 7 YT-1300s over 8 games and 0 Phantoms. And overall, I believe we had all of 3 Defenders in attendance. I think the Defender got dismissed a bit too early and it can do well, but let's let things stabilize a bit before making any definitive calls.

This bears repeating. A lot of what we are seeing is based on people perhaps overcompensating for Phantoms and leaving themselves vulnerable. At the Plano regionals I ran across 7 YT-1300s over 8 games and 0 Phantoms. And overall, I believe we had all of 3 Defenders in attendance. I think the Defender got dismissed a bit too early and it can do well, but let's let things stabilize a bit before making any definitive calls.

Agreed. This is what I was really trying to argue from the beginning. It will be a little while before we truly know what the value of the Defender is. Early indications are of it as a fairly efficient big ship killer, but will that hold out as being competitive once the meta settles down a bit and we see less YT-to-counter-the-Phantom builds?? Only time will tell...

Based on the results we do have people should be looking at anti-anti-Phantom list instead.

No kidding. It bears repeating that at the 26-player Denver regionals, there was one Phantom list and twenty-five lists built around Phantom counters--and every single one of the top eight players was running either Han or Chewie.

Now, if only there were a Defender pilot that could reliably pile up crits against Falcons...

The thing is, a 7 TIE Howlrunner Swarm should be able to counter Falcon builds at least as well as a Rexler based build. Rexler + Predator is 40 points, that's enough for a mini-swam all on its own.

• Falcons are seeing massive play because they are a counter to Phantoms.
• Falcons are doing well because Swarms are virtually non-existent (save for one Regionals in Germany)
• Swarms are nearly extinct because people are afraid of Phantoms.

With Rexler, if you roll an eyeball on an attack, you're almost always better off spending the focus to convert it to a hit. So the question is how often do you still have a focus token?

If you just have a focus:

If you roll 3 dice, there's a 42% (3/4)^3 chance that you roll no eyeballs.

If you roll 4 dice, there's a 31% (3/4)^4 chance that you roll no eyeballs.

If you are action stacked TL + F:

There's a 5/16 chance of rolling an eyeball per die: 2/8 {focus} + 2/8 {eyeball reroll} * 2/8 {focus} = 5/16

If you roll 3 dice, there's a 32.5% (11/16)^3 chance that you roll/reroll no eyeballs.

If you roll 4 dice, there's a 22.3% (11/16)^4 chance that you roll/reroll no eyeballs.

If you have Predator:

If you roll 3 dice, there's a 34.7% that you roll/reroll no eyeballs.

If you roll 4 dice, there's a 25.2% that you roll/reroll no eyeballs.

So:

1. Unless you intentionally limit your damage output by not converting eyeballs to hits, the probability of having a focus token after attacking is rather low.
2. If you spend your focus token you are much squishier on defense. Rexler will be spending his focus token, one way or the other, almost all the time on offense. That makes him an extremely appealing 37+ point target to shoot at, who is effectively less less durable than 2 TIE Fighters (assuing they occasionally have focus for defense).

It just doesn't add up to me. Vessery at least gets a free Target Lock, you just have to build a squad around him.

Apparently "Defender" isn't a misnomer at all, considering the amount of defense required to justify fielding one.