There's still a chance we may see something in the Hotshot spec (coming soon) that can keep a solo fighter in the battle.

The problem with introducing a talent like that so late, is that Hotshot would then turn into THE fighter pilot spec, and no one would ever want to start with anything else for starfighter combat. Even though we have quite a few pilot specs already.

I just would want to be able to run something like Wraith or Rogue Squadron, and still have a variety of specs used.

(Granted, if I was going to do Wraith or Rogue Squadron type stuf, I would probably start everyone with a bonus out of career specialization so that they could start with one pilot type spec and one ground type spec from the get go)

The problem with introducing a talent like that so late, is that

This will always occur in a game like this where all of the specs are not complete before the first one is published. There will be Talents that suck and Talents that are awesome. As the line gets older and fatter on specs, you'll see the crappy talents (like Precise Aim) appear less often.

How exactly is Precise Aim crappy?

Just out of curiosity, but when haven't fighters been anything other than paper targets? Our best fighters right now die to single missile strikes and unlike what hollywood loves to show, in large battles many, many people die.

For example (since Star Wars is based on WWII ideas of fighting), at the Battle of Midway where none of the large vessels actually came within sight, let alone range of each other, the US lost 150 aircraft vs the 248 that were lost by Japan. On top of that the US lost a carrier and a battleship to enemy action while the Japanese lost 4 carriers and a heavy cruiser.

If you watch footage of what a real dog-fight looks like, it is a tangled mess of confusion occupying 3 dimensions. It is rarely as simple as 1-on-1 skill vs skill type challenges since while you're chasing a target, odds are others are chasing you. Skill helps some, but once numbers become involved, your skill really stops mattering as much as luck does. What I mean by that is when you're flying as part of a squadron, it really is about luck that determines which of your 12 craft are targeted by opposing forces given all the factors (visibility, range, angle to target, etc...).

So, hits to a squadron aren't just "somebody jumping in the way for you", but also others just getting unlucky and taking hits that you or others couldn't react to in time to "clear their six".

Just out of curiosity, but when haven't fighters been anything other than paper targets?

I can't point to a single case in any of the movies or TCW where a ship piloted by a main character blows up after getting hit. The Falcon takes hit after hit from a Star Destroyer but manages to keep flying. Obi Wan's fighter in RotS loses an entire wing and still flies and Luke get hit from behind and only manages to have a stabilizer knocked loose.

Ships in Star Wars that are piloted by heroes are incredibly resilient.

To replicate this sort of plot immunity, it is a simple matter of saying that any PC driven ship doesn't get crippled when damage exceeds it's hull threshold. It gets a critical as normal and gets another critical automatically every time it's hit from then on (if you wish you can add the hull damage that shot did to the critical roll). This way, PC ships will fall apart slowly rather than go boom (or just sit there).

Just out of curiosity, but when haven't fighters been anything other than paper targets?

I can't point to a single case in any of the movies or TCW where a ship piloted by a main character blows up after getting hit. The Falcon takes hit after hit from a Star Destroyer but manages to keep flying. Obi Wan's fighter in RotS loses an entire wing and still flies and Luke get hit from behind and only manages to have a stabilizer knocked loose.

Ships in Star Wars that are piloted by heroes are incredibly resilient.

To replicate this sort of plot immunity, it is a simple matter of saying that any PC driven ship doesn't get crippled when damage exceeds it's hull threshold. It gets a critical as normal and gets another critical automatically every time it's hit from then on (if you wish you can add the hull damage that shot did to the critical roll). This way, PC ships will fall apart slowly rather than go boom (or just sit there).

1 Obi-Wan's fighter was able to fly in a straight line but t was clearly crippled and wasn't hit by laser fire.

2: The Falcon is a freighter with heavily modified armor and shielding not a fighter.

3: Luke took a glancing blow to a non critical area. The only person who took a hit to the main body of their fighter and wasn't destroyed was Wedge, and his fighter had to abort because it engines were damaged by that hit.

Except FFG's system is a system in which avoiding being hit is pretty well impossible. Even with a rank of defensive driving, performing evasive maneuvers, and having double shields to the side you are being shot at, a Agi 3, Gunnery 2 opponent (which is trivially low, minion groups with 4 minions are going to be higher than this) is going to hit you 36% of the time.

The whole starship system seems like it was balanced around EotE, in which the characters were going to be in Freighters primarily.

When you have a system where avoiding being hit is pretty much not going to happen, and starfighters are made of paper, you end up with a system where only narrative allows the character to survive.

Don't you guys think its a bit tiring to have "oh, you got hit, but somehow, unlike everyone else, your ship doesn't explode and instead is crippled" and "oh, another NPC took the shot for you again" happen over and over and over again. I get that its "narrative" but it strains belief when it happens with a really high frequency.

Except FFG's system is a system in which avoiding being hit is pretty well impossible. Even with a rank of defensive driving, performing evasive maneuvers, and having double shields to the side you are being shot at, a Agi 3, Gunnery 2 opponent (which is trivially low, minion groups with 4 minions are going to be higher than this) is going to hit you 36% of the time.

The whole starship system seems like it was balanced around EotE, in which the characters were going to be in Freighters primarily.

When you have a system where avoiding being hit is pretty much not going to happen, and starfighters are made of paper, you end up with a system where only narrative allows the character to survive.

Don't you guys think its a bit tiring to have "oh, you got hit, but somehow, unlike everyone else, your ship doesn't explode and instead is crippled" and "oh, another NPC took the shot for you again" happen over and over and over again. I get that its "narrative" but it strains belief when it happens with a really high frequency.

4 on 1 fights usually don't end well for the solo guy.

and sounds like you have a limited view of the narrative you can create with this. It isn't just "oh, another NPC took the shot for you again", it could also be "massive fire rains down on your squad. You break to deal with the threats and they manage to shoot down NPC XYZ... in the furball"

Don't you guys think its a bit tiring to have "oh, you got hit, but somehow, unlike everyone else, your ship doesn't explode and instead is crippled" .

I have no problem with this. Minion type rules have existed in RPGs since the late 70s and probably much longer than that in wargaming.

However, I do agree with your central premise that starfighters in this game need some help avoiding hits, either through the to-hit process or a Reflect-like damage reduction mechanic.

One thing I've never seen talked about is turning shields into a damage absorbtion mechanic.

4 on 1 fights usually don't end well for the solo guy.

The starfighter game is rocket tag, whoever hits first, wins. And there is almost no way to avoid being hit. Its not about 4 vs 1, its about the fact that you WILL get shot at, and you are likely to be completely knocked out of combat (and only saved because you happen to be "important" because "narrative") about every 4 rounds of starfighter combat in which you are fired on by semi-skilled competition. If its against an Ace, you are literally playing initiative tag, because its going to be the first person to fire has a 60+% chance of hitting AND taking the other out from linked.

I also don't see people complaining that a skilled Soldier in the game can take down a minion group of 4 stormtroopers, even if the stormies go first. But a skilled fighter pilot taking out 4 TIES? UNBELIEVABLE.

Hull threshold is just too low compared to weapon damage, and you just can't raise your defense enough without going through SEVERAL trees, and even then it takes a lot to add up. You need at least two levels of tricky target and several levels of defensive driving to make a real difference. Brilliant Evasion is the only talent that can really protect you, and it only works on one target (its great for running away from a Star Destroyer though).

Its telling that the only way they could find to keep your character from being hit close to automatically was to just have a talent that makes something unable to target you.

Tricky Target is not a ranked talent, so it often won't matter in dogfighting situations.

Even with multiple levels of Defensive Driving, Defense still caps at 4.

Tricky Target is not a ranked talent, so it often won't matter in dogfighting situations.

Oh wow, didn't notice that, somehow I just assumed it was. So the A-Wing + Tricky Target is the only time it matters in dogfighting. Good to know.

Tricky Target is not a ranked talent, so it often won't matter in dogfighting situations.

Even with multiple levels of Defensive Driving, Defense still caps at 4.

So if I have a Sentinel, with extra shields modded so I've for example got 4/2 in my forward and rear shields. I've wouldn't be able to use Defensive Driving?

I don't really read it that way, and even if that's RAW, it kinda sucks.

Defensive Driving would still add to your rear shields, but they wouldn't add to the forward shields since Defense maxes out at 4.

I have to say the rule that makes the most sense to me (and simplest) is adding handling as setbacks to an attacker.

I'd also say that Gain The Advantage removes this along with Evasive Manouvres.

This makes it slightly harder to hit enemies in agile fighters, which is a common complaint, and makes Gain the Advantage more tempting.

This is just me, but it feels like there should be a difference between a TIE/ln and a Y-wing for target difficulty if you put the same pilot in both.

Defensive Driving would still add to your rear shields, but they wouldn't add to the forward shields since Defense maxes out at 4.

I believe that the rule limiting your maximum Defense to 4 to the ship itself and it's shield generators, not to talents that enhance that defense.

If you install a reinforced shield generator on a Citadel Class Freighter (Defense 2 - - 1), and modded it for all 3 points of defense you can't put more than 2 points into the front because 3 would take it above 4. and likely they wouldn't anyway, they would go for 3 - - 3 because Angle Deflector Shields only allows you to shift 1 point.

The Defensive driving talent would allow you to make your Defense exceed that of the ship's spec's, because Defensive Driving is you making the ship not be where the shots go.

If they meant Defensive Driving to be beholden to the cap of 4 they would have put that in the talent's description.

They also would not have made it possible to possess 5 ranks of it (thus far, likely Hot Shot will feature 1 or 2 more).

And by terming it Defense instead of setback dice, it allows for people with multiple ranks of Precise Aim to negate the now increased Defense.

If they meant Defensive Driving to be beholden to the cap of 4 they would have put that in the talent's description.

They also would not have made it possible to possess 5 ranks of it (thus far, likely Hot Shot will feature 1 or 2 more).

Actually Happy is unfortunately correct.

The maximum amount of defense a ship or vehicle can have in any of its defense zones is four points, regardless of its size.

If they meant Defensive Driving to be beholden to the cap of 4 they would have put that in the talent's description.

They also would not have made it possible to possess 5 ranks of it (thus far, likely Hot Shot will feature 1 or 2 more).

Actually Happy is unfortunately correct.

The maximum amount of defense a ship or vehicle can have in any of its defense zones is four points, regardless of its size.

Sorry.

Every ship comes with a pre-set defense rating for each of its defense zones dictated by its computer system and the factory settings of its shield generators. The maximum amount of defense a ship or vehicle can have in any of its defense zones is four points, regardless of its size.

Sorry, but I believe that you are incorrect, because you are not reading the entire text.

You are cherry picking to make your point.

I believe they intend to have the talents break that cap, otherwise they would specify within the text of the talent.

"Don't put too many points in this talent or you will waste them because the hard cap rule for defense from equipment applies to talents too."

Did they put anything like that in the text? No.

As of this moment it is possible to possess 5 ranks Defensive Driving. 1 from Pilot, 1 from Driver, 1 from Fringer, and 2 from Squadron Leader.

Again there is no text under the talent that speaks about a cap. In the ship section it says the following:

I am expecting the hot shot to have a talent that adds in the characters ships speed to defense. That or an Ace signature ability.

Every ship comes with a pre-set defense rating for each of its defense zones dictated by its computer system and the factory settings of its shield generators. The maximum amount of defense a ship or vehicle can have in any of its defense zones is four points, regardless of its size.

This speaks as to the limitations of the craft, not limitations on the individual piloting it.

I dunno, that second sentence sounds pretty final.

What if we change the maneuver text to:

Evasive Maneuver

Any attack targeting the ship doing the maneuver "Evasive Maneuver" suffers an upgrade in the difficulty equal to the piloting (space) skill of the target.

So reading this thread, here's an idea I had. Let pit the following fighters in a space battle and see how it goes.

• One "Pretty good" Starting PC Pilot (Agility 4, Piloting (Space) and Gunnery at 2 each, 1 ranks of Cool), but no talents.
• 4 Tie Pilots (Minion Skills: Piloting (Space) and Gunnery). These guys have their 3 Agility rolls upgraded thrice to PPP, and 24 Hull, losing one at every shot in excess of 6 Hull damage.

Since the A-Wing has Medium Sensor Range, let's assume they start out at that distance, fully aware of each other and running at Speed 3.

Just to try to have a baseline, everything in here will rely on the "statistically expected" result for the die roll, rounded to the nearest integer. As an example, the most probable result for 2 Proficiency ("P"/yellow) dice and 1 Ability ("A"/green) dice against 2 Difficulty ("D"/purple) dice is 1 Success [2*0.83+0.625-2*0.5=1.29 rounded to 1] and 1 Advantage [2*0.75+0.625-2*0.75=0.625 rounded to 1]. I know it's a bit of a stretch to "eliminate luck", but bear with me.

Initiative: Our PC (AP) gets initiative against the TIES (AA since they don't have Cool as a Group Skill).

------

Turn 1
Our PC knows this is going to be a tough fight, so first thing first, he speeds up and tries to gain advantage. His A-Wing Punches it!, gains 3 Strain for his ship and himself and is now Speed 6. On his Gain Advantage roll (AAPP, BBB for +3 Handling, against D for having higher speed) he gets 3 Successes and 4 Advantages. 2 of those advantages are going to give a Setback dice on the TIEs, and since he's still within "safe range" from the lasers, uses the 2 others to gain a Boost on his next roll.

The TIES are NOT going to go lightly. They can't get two manoeuvers out of their turn (can't suffer Strain) so they Fly to close the gap (to press their number's advantage, since they can't really win the "speed race"), spending one of the two manoeuvers required to do so at speed 3. They also try to negate the A-Wing's advantage with a PPPBBB, +S for the A-Wing's advantage, against DDD. They succeed and generate 2 successes and 2 Advantages, used for throwing a Setback die at the PC.

--

Turn 2

Starting with the Advantage roll to regain survivability, the PC (now with a Setback die and a Boost) still nets 3 successes and 4 advantages on his Piloting roll (AAPPBBBB/DS). He'll do the same thing and throw a Setback at the TIEs, feeling the heat of their laser cannons coming. He also takes a Boost Die on his next action and performs Evasive manoeuvers,

The TIEs will close in with Fly to Close range, and attempt to Damage the A-Wing. Theirs is a PPP/CDSS (Upgraded from Evasive Manoeuvers, Setback dice from previous Advantage and Defense), and that yields 1 success and no advantage on the Hit roll! HIT! With no advantage to Link, it yields 5 Damage, which is JUST short of destroying the fragile A-Wing. You can feel the sweat trickling down the PC's brow.

------

Turn 3

Time to press the offensive. Still with the Advantage, he will keep doing Evasive Manoeuvers for his own sake, but will fire his Laser Cannons with the intent to kill. We'll disregard for the moment the fact that the A-Wing's Concussion missiles could have probably DESTROYED the TIE swarm with a simple activation of the Blast quality (Breach 4 rocks), and assume he was out of missiles. So that's an AAPPB/DD roll(Remember that boost die?) which yields 2 successes and 2 Advantages. Not enough for a Crit, but just enough for Linked. That's 5 Damage (7 Damage - 2 Armor), twice for a total of 10 Damage, meaning 1 TIE is cleanly taken out and it won't take much for another to go.

This is probably the TIE's last chances to destroy the A-Wing, since their Piloting skill will only go downhill from here. So They'll take their Aim and shoot the bugger out of the sky. That's a APPB/CDS roll, and those tend to end up with 1 Success and 1 Advantage. That's a BOOM for the PC in the A-Wing, ain't that a shame.

It ends badly for the PC.

-------

Conclusion (if you can call it that)

Well that was fun. I was curious to test out how it worked out, and especially how useful/unuseful Gain Advantage/Evasive manoeuvers were.Turned out better than I would have guessed for a "1 PC in a flimsy ship against 4 TIEs".

Thoughts:

• Of course those are theoretical results for the die roll, but I found they vary surprisingly with the ebb/flow of the game, which is a lot of fun.
• 4 TIEs is probably one too many, 3 would probably have gone the way of the A-Wing since they may very well not hit in the first place.
• Handling +3 is MAJOR, and those Boost/Setback dice are essential to generate advantage if you want to survive. This is probably where Ace pilots will shine.
• The X-, Y- and B-Wing are all more durable, but will not generate as much Advantage on the Piloting rolls, which could be problematic. They will pack a bigger punch, tough you will have to be skilled/lucky to generate enough Advantage to activate.
• The missile would have KILLED the Squad.
• If you see anything I recorded/did wrong, let me know, I'm expecting to run big Starship battles soon enough and I want to get it right.

Good to see.

And yes, multi-linked weapons and/or similar can dismember minion groups. The high linked value of an X-wing's lasers is probably its most powerful feature...

Ultimately, 4-on-one is harsh odds given that the PC had no talents and only starting-level skills. Given how close that first attack was to a miss, as you say, one less TIE and/or one extra defense die from talents could have vastly changed the results.

I'll be honest, I'm mostly working from theory; I'm hoping to get a game running this weekend with quite a bit of starfighter combat, so I'll give it a go as written first.

Well that was fun. I was curious to test out how it worked out, and especially how useful/unuseful Gain Advantage/Evasive manoeuvers were.Turned out better than I would have guessed for a "1 PC in a flimsy ship against 4 TIEs".

Thoughts:

• Of course those are theoretical results for the die roll, but I found they vary surprisingly with the ebb/flow of the game, which is a lot of fun.
• 4 TIEs is probably one too many, 3 would probably have gone the way of the A-Wing since they may very well not hit in the first place.
• Handling +3 is MAJOR, and those Boost/Setback dice are essential to generate advantage if you want to survive. This is probably where Ace pilots will shine.
• The X-, Y- and B-Wing are all more durable, but will not generate as much Advantage on the Piloting rolls, which could be problematic. They will pack a bigger punch, tough you will have to be skilled/lucky to generate enough Advantage to activate.
• The missile would have KILLED the Squad.
• If you see anything I recorded/did wrong, let me know, I'm expecting to run big Starship battles soon enough and I want to get it right.

Thanks for that. It was really useful from both the perspective of getting a feel for the balance and from learning the rules.

Is there any chance you can be persuaded to do a couple more scenarios? *hopeful*