So I'm actually WRONG if I find the Y-Wing an exiting fighter to play. Factually wrong according to you.

Interesting. I guess I'm done here.

To quote another Science Fiction universe however: " I find your arguments strewn with gaping holes in logic."

...I also think Horton Salm was considered an "Ace". I guess we will still lump him and his ship into the "Rebel Ships: Garbage Scow" box release edition.

stuff

So flavor means more to you than the state of the game. Okay, let's throw out the "aces" nomenclature and focus on what would actually improve the game. I have no problem with FFG pushing the meta towards more expensive, named pilots, but that's nothing they couldn't also accomplish with the Y-Wing - and nothing they aren't already doing with wave 4. Again, what's better for format diversity, making an already played ship even more prolific, or giving players a reason to fly an otherwise unidimensional and seldom used ship?

As for these gems:

1) The a-wing is an exciting dogfighter that makes a good "aces" ship. In fact, as soon as the imperial aces expansion was announced anyone with any sense could have guessed that the rebel one was going to have an a-wing.

2) The a-wing had the same problem as the b-wing: nobody wanted to use any of its upgrades or unique pilots. And it gets a similar solution, powerful new unique pilots that can replace the weaker old ones, and new upgrade options that encourage you to spend more points on the ship instead of just using the same old basic generics.

1) Anyone with any sense was predicting that it was going to be an A/Y-Wing expansion long before Rebel Aces was announced, for all of the obvious reasons that seem to elude you.

2) The A-Wing and the B-Wing do not have the same problem. The A-Wing has seen little play because it's overcosted, which both the refit and Z-95 make abundantly clear. The named B-Wings see little play because of a meta decision to field multiple generic ships rather than fewer named ones.

If only B-Wings could mount Imperial upgrades. Mara Jade on a B-wing... or Fleet Tactician on a B-wing... (drool)

As of now, the only useful non-epic crew cards are Gunner (but only on large ships), C3P0 on a Falcon. Darth Vader on a Shuttle and Recon Specialist on Hwks/Firespray. The B-Wing as of now doesn't benefit from any crew, but it does future-proof it for future better crew expansions.

So flavor means more to you than the state of the game. Okay, let's throw out the "aces" nomenclature and focus on what would actually improve the game.

So, when talking about what should be included in an "aces" expansion, we should pretend that it isn't an "aces" expansion?

I have no problem with FFG pushing the meta towards more expensive, named pilots, but that's nothing they couldn't also accomplish with the Y-Wing - and nothing they aren't already doing with wave 4.

It can't be done as easily with the y-wing because the y-wing's design space is much smaller. It's a ship with a terrible dial, a terrible primary weapon, and such an obvious "take a turret and fly circles around the edge of the battle" role that it would be extremely difficult to make it do anything else.

1) Anyone with any sense was predicting that it was going to be an A/Y-Wing expansion long before Rebel Aces was announced, for all of the obvious reasons that seem to elude you.

Only people who didn't understand what "aces" means thought that. The a-wing was an incredibly obvious choice, and the obvious second choice (assuming two different ships) was the x-wing. When the transport provided all the x-wing stuff that would have been in an "aces" expansion there were two possibilities: double a-wing, or a-wing/b-wing.

The y-wing was never a likely option, and was only a popular guess because people thought that the intent of "aces" expansions was balance fixes to weak ships, not adding new elite pilots in exciting ships.

2) The A-Wing and the B-Wing do not have the same problem. The A-Wing has seen little play because it's overcosted, which both the refit and Z-95 make abundantly clear.

And, when it has seen play, it's been the generic pilots with few/no upgrades. Nobody used the unique pilots or major upgrades because they weren't worth it compared to the generics. Now there are awesome unique pilots and EPT upgrades that encourage more diversity when you do take an a-wing.

So, when talking about what should be included in an "aces" expansion, we should pretend that it isn't an "aces" expansion?

No, we should pretend like the state of the game matters more than a trivial semantic distinction. Besides, look at the current Rebel Aces lineup. Are any of those named pilots noteworthy to you, outside of the fact that they're included in the aces pack?

It can't be done as easily with the y-wing because the y-wing's design space is much smaller. It's a ship with a terrible dial, a terrible primary weapon, and such an obvious "take a turret and fly circles around the edge of the battle" role that it would be extremely difficult to make it do anything else.

Then I suppose that I'll thank my lucky stars that someone with such a limited imagination isn't part of FFG's creative development team.

Only people who didn't understand what "aces" means thought that. The a-wing was an incredibly obvious choice, and the obvious second choice (assuming two different ships) was the x-wing. When the transport provided all the x-wing stuff that would have been in an "aces" expansion there were two possibilities: double a-wing, or a-wing/b-wing.

The y-wing was never a likely option, and was only a popular guess because people thought that the intent of "aces" expansions was balance fixes to weak ships, not adding new elite pilots in exciting ships.

So for the umpteenth time, you're going to sit there and posture like you know better than the rest of the community. Okay.

And, when it has seen play, it's been the generic pilots with few/no upgrades. Nobody used the unique pilots or major upgrades because they weren't worth it compared to the generics. Now there are awesome unique pilots and EPT upgrades that encourage more diversity when you do take an a-wing.

You're still confusing a design limitation with a conscious meta decision. If wave 4 hadn't come along to shake up the meta, do you think Rebel Aces really would have revitalized the other named B-Wings that nobody is playing with? Because I haven't seen anything that would displace Blues or Daggers if wave 4 didn't discourage low PS spam.

It's a mod that is going to be released in the Rebel Aces expansion that allows B-Wings to take crew.

Canon-ly, I believe it is the modified variant of the B-Wing that Admiral Ackbar used for transport.

No, Ackbar's B-Wing is a FURTHER variant of the /E2. His had a widened cockpit so the passenger sat side-by-side. The regular /E2 had a dedicated gunner behind the pilot. It was to lighten the workload on the pilot and improve performance of the B-wing as a dedicated heavy assault fighter. I would really like to see Ackbar as a crew (or possibly even B-wing pilot) someday.

I'm personally having trouble figuring out how to fit in anything I like. It adds up quickly.

Thanks for the info on what the mods are! Although I do disagree on akabar being non-Huge ship crew.

Keyan Farlander can do absurd damage at range with the right upgrades.

No, we should pretend like the state of the game matters more than a trivial semantic distinction.

It's not a "trivial semantic distinction" when it defines the content of a product.

Besides, look at the current Rebel Aces lineup. Are any of those named pilots noteworthy to you, outside of the fact that they're included in the aces pack?

Err, lol? Farlander is a very popular character, and has powerful rules that a lot of people are eagerly anticipating. The two a-wing pilots aren't well-known characters, but they fit the "a-wing ace" archetype very well fluff-wise and have rules that make them appealing options. I'd say that satisfies the requirements to be called "noteworthy".

If FFG was pushing us to use named pilots only, why did they include a generic B-Wing PS5 with an EPT? The only reason I've taken an elite B-wing pilot in the past was for PTL. Now I'm afraid Ibby, and especially Ten, will never see the board. Keyan will for his amazing ability. That PS5 will push the daggers right out of the game.

Also, for those saying the Y-wing isnt an excitable dog fighter, then try a Y-wing with D2-D6 and give it the barrel-roll EPT, and also the Engine Booster Upgrade. Your opponent wont see it coming!

If FFG was pushing us to use named pilots only, why did they include a generic B-Wing PS5 with an EPT? The only reason I've taken an elite B-wing pilot in the past was for PTL. Now I'm afraid Ibby, and especially Ten, will never see the board. Keyan will for his amazing ability. That PS5 will push the daggers right out of the game.

The PS5 in the set is definitely unique. We just haven't seen its ability yet.

Then I suppose that I'll thank my lucky stars that someone with such a limited imagination isn't part of FFG's creative development team.

Alright then, let's see your amazing ideas for "fixing" the y-wing. Please make sure to turn it into an interesting dogfighter, not just a better turret platform.

So for the umpteenth time, you're going to sit there and posture like you know better than the rest of the community. Okay.

I don't know about the whole community, but I certainly know better than you. The most likely choice for rebel aces was x-wing/a-wing, once the transport took all the x-wing stuff the next option was a-wing/b-wing. A-wing/y-wing was only "likely" because some people thought the interceptor was chosen for balance reasons rather than because it was the best "ace" ship available at the time.

If wave 4 hadn't come along to shake up the meta, do you think Rebel Aces really would have revitalized the other named B-Wings that nobody is playing with?

No, and that's not really the point. The point is to replace the original unique pilots with ones that don't suck. Farlander is FFG's way of saying "sorry for printing Ten Numb, here's a unique pilot that you might actually use".

If FFG was pushing us to use named pilots only, why did they include a generic B-Wing PS5 with an EPT? The only reason I've taken an elite B-wing pilot in the past was for PTL. Now I'm afraid Ibby, and especially Ten, will never see the board. Keyan will for his amazing ability. That PS5 will push the daggers right out of the game.

The PS5 in the set is definitely unique. We just haven't seen its ability yet.

Hmmmm. Well that's disappointing to me at least. Was really hoping to run a couple of PS5 B's with predator.

If FFG was pushing us to use named pilots only, why did they include a generic B-Wing PS5 with an EPT? The only reason I've taken an elite B-wing pilot in the past was for PTL. Now I'm afraid Ibby, and especially Ten, will never see the board. Keyan will for his amazing ability. That PS5 will push the daggers right out of the game.

The PS5 in the set is definitely unique. We just haven't seen its ability yet.

Hmmmm. Well that's disappointing to me at least. Was really hoping to run a couple of PS5 B's with predator.

Yup in the spread image it has an EPT but there is a Unique Pilot dot and the name is Ness something. No idea on the ability, not enough of the card is visible.

"No, and that's not really the point. The point is to replace the original unique pilots with ones that don't suck. Farlander is FFG's way of saying "sorry for printing Ten Numb, here's a unique pilot that you might actually use"."

....cause Ibby sucks.

Also, your comment about the Y's dial sucking doesnt really compute. It's exactly the same as an x with two more red and two less green.

The b sports a 1 turn in red (but no 3 turn)...but actually has MORE red than a Y.

Give the Y a 1pt R2 unit and the dial is EASILY better than a B. Sure it lacks the excellent 1 turn, but that's only used in emergencies unless you are Ibby and like to be stressed.

Again, your arguement is illogical on so many points...I think we are both getting tired of pointing all of them out.

Oh, I never get tired of putting iPeregrine in his place.

Oh, I never get tired of posting garbage and masturbating to how I "won" the internet.

Yes, we all know that. FFS, I've seen spambots with a better signal to noise ratio than you.

....cause Ibby sucks.

Yeah, actually she kind of does. She's an expensive upgrade on an expensive ship, her ability requires a significant drop in maneuverability if you want to use it consistently, and you have to spend even more points in stress-causing EPTs to do it. Granted, she's not as bad as Ten Numb, but that's not saying very much.

Also, your comment about the Y's dial sucking doesnt really compute. It's exactly the same as an x with two more red and two less green.

Yes, thank you for making my point for me. No matter what you do with a y-wing you're never going to get a maneuvering advantage over an x-wing. The b-wing's dial might have more red maneuvers, but at least it has a slow-speed maneuvering advantage (especially with advanced sensors).

So, end result, the y-wing is a turret ship or a torpedo boat, and any attempt to turn it into a dogfighter appropriate for an "aces" expansion just makes it an inferior x-wing.

Yes, we all know that. FFS, I've seen spambots with a better signal to noise ratio than you.

I have yet to see you post in a topic where the entire community didn't disagree with everything you posted. You can point the finger at me if you like, but the simple fact is I merely lack the compunction to restrain myself from saying what everyone else is already thinking. If you weren't so out of touch with reality you might see that for yourself.

Back on topic:

It's not a "trivial semantic distinction" when it defines the content of a product.

The only thing definitive about Rebel Aces is that it's Rebel. What actually constitutes an ace in the Star Wars universe is purely subjective, and therefor open to interpretation. Hint: your interpretation isn't the only one that matters. Also, see my next point.

Err, lol? Farlander is a very popular character, and has powerful rules that a lot of people are eagerly anticipating. The two a-wing pilots aren't well-known characters, but they fit the "a-wing ace" archetype very well fluff-wise and have rules that make them appealing options. I'd say that satisfies the requirements to be called "noteworthy".

Popular =/= ace. I'm sure plenty of people know of him, but is simply being aware of his existence enough to constitute being labeled an ace? Probably not.

Apparrently...IPerigrine has never played against Rebel Convoy.

In reality, and as is apparent to anyone who plays this game with any skill, the Y is a FANTASTIC close combat brawler, which is basically....a dogfighter.

The best performance I've ever had with the Y (and I've flown it A LOT) is close combat brawling at range 1 where collisions are a constant danger. THATS Rebel Convoy, and Rebel Convoy is a VERY potent build....and to speak frankly, neither the X OR the B could hang as replacements for the Y in that list.

That's not skirting the combat, and it's not hanging back firing torpedo's....its dogfighting.

Yea man...you're lost.

If FFG was pushing us to use named pilots only, why did they include a generic B-Wing PS5 with an EPT? The only reason I've taken an elite B-wing pilot in the past was for PTL. Now I'm afraid Ibby, and especially Ten, will never see the board. Keyan will for his amazing ability. That PS5 will push the daggers right out of the game.

The PS5 in the set is definitely unique. We just haven't seen its ability yet.

Hmmmm. Well that's disappointing to me at least. Was really hoping to run a couple of PS5 B's with predator.

Yup in the spread image it has an EPT but there is a Unique Pilot dot and the name is Ness something. No idea on the ability, not enough of the card is visible.

Psychic powers activate!

Nera Dantels (26 Points)

You equip secondary

weapons for 1 less point.

I have yet to see you post in a topic where the entire community didn't disagree with everything you posted.

Only because you define yourself as the entire community, probably because it makes it easier to congratulate yourself on how everyone agrees with you.

The only thing definitive about Rebel Aces is that's Rebel. What actually constitutes an ace in the Star Wars universe is purely subjective, and therefor open to interpretation.

Oh FFS, you know perfectly well that "ace" implies dogfighting, elite pilots, etc. Even if you won't admit it you know that putting a HWK or shuttle in those expansions would have been inappropriate.

Popular =/= ace. I'm sure plenty of people know of him, but is the simple fact of being aware of his existence enough to constitute being labeled an ace? Probably not.

Yeah, the main character of the X-Wing video game who slaughtered TIEs by the thousands is probably not an ace. Seriously, are you really that desperate for an argument?

Only because you define yourself as the entire community, probably because it makes it easier to congratulate yourself on how everyone agrees with you.

No, because I have eyes and a brain. You could ask around if you like, but I don't think you want to get into a popularity contest around here.

Oh FFS, you know perfectly well that "ace" implies dogfighting, elite pilots, etc. Even if you won't admit it you know that putting a HWK or shuttle in those expansions would have been inappropriate.

I feel like we're back to the point where you said that loaded dice are sanctioned by the official rules. Do you really believe that you're the only one whose interpretations matter? Either way, you're still assuming that FFG has cornered themselves into releasing every supplementary product under the aces designation. They could have easily named this something else to circumvent the flavor issues you seem to have with including Y-Wings.

Yeah, the main character of the X-Wing video game who slaughtered TIEs by the thousands is probably not an ace. Seriously, are you really that desperate for an argument?

To understand how ironic this statement is, please see my previous point.

In reality, and as is apparent to anyone who plays this game with any skill, the Y is a FANTASTIC close combat brawler, which is basically....a dogfighter.

Lol, no. The y-wing works in that list because it's cheap and has a lot of HP per point. The b-wing is simply better in every way at close range. Better firepower, better durability, better short-range dial, and AS/FCS to negate action loss from collisions.

The only thing the y-wing has to offer at close range is the 360* turret that allows you to ignore offensive maneuvering and focus on ramming enemy ships. And that's not a dogfighter, it's an ORS with a point reduction.

No, because I have eyes and a brain. You could ask around if you like, but I don't think you want to get into a popularity contest around here.

The fact that you think this is important enough to brag about says some pretty sad things about you.

I feel like we're back to the point where you said that loaded dice are sanctioned by the official rules. Do you really believe that you're the only one whose interpretations matter?

So, here's a question for you: are you a dishonest troll who thinks that you can win the internet by digging up out of context quotes and trusting that nobody will go back to read the original source, or are you honestly so stupid that you didn't understand the original argument?

Now, just to make it clear how much of a troll you are, I never said that the rules sanction loaded dice, or that using loaded dice is justified. I said that by strict RAW the rules don't ban loaded dice, something that everyone knows is inappropriate. And so attempting to argue "the rules don't say you can ban my loaded dice" would get nowhere. Conclusion: arguing strict RAW in defense of cheating is stupid, no matter how clever a loophole you think you found.

To understand how ironic this statement is, please see my previous point.

So I guess you're just going to abandon your skepticism that Farlander is some unknown that doesn't deserve the "ace" title?