Okay, I apologize if these issues have already been addressed in this forum – if they have been then I have not seen the commentary. First, I think this game has largely done a good job of translating the characteristics of the different ships that we all love into the game-play, especially with the varied maneuver dials. However, I do very much dislike some of the choices the designers made with the Defenders and Phantoms.

TIE Defenders – this is my favorite ship from the video games and I was very excited to have use it in X-Wing. However, I think having the non-unique pilots at 1 and 3 PS is a very poor choice. Defender Pilots were only hardened veterans; survivors of at least 20 missions in an Interceptor, and I think that it is really lousy that any such a pilot would somehow have the lowest base PS in the game (PS 1) and the only other generic pilot comes in at PS 3. The Defender generic pilots should have been PS 3 and 5 (instead of the Phantoms) and the PS 5 pilot should have an EPT option. If that means they should cost a bit more, then I am okay with that. The high cost should be the only drawback of the Defender – it should not also be limited by low PS generic pilots and not have access to a generic option with EPT.

Phantom TIEs – adding this ship with its unique cloaking ability was an awesome choice, but I hate the way this awesome potential ability is represented in the game. I had always seen the green agility dice as a reflection of a ships maneuverability (or agility?) so how does cloaking make your ship more agile? This should add no extra green dice (Phantoms should have just had the normal 3 agility for a Tie). Cloaking means your ship disappears from vision (you should not be able to use focus/marksmanship when attacking a cloaked ship) also a cloaked ship would disappear from the Targeting Computer (when a ship performs the cloak action it should shred all TLs – a better version of EH). I do like the mechanic of decloaking – basically appearing on the board someplace else. However, if my version of Cloaking seems OP, then just make the base ship cost more. Additionally, the non-unique Phantoms have a relatively high PS at 3 and 5. Really, going back to my Defender rant, the Phantoms should have been PS 1 and 3 instead of the Defenders…

I am very interested in feedback.

I thought conventional wisdom was that the pilot skill was relative to the difficulty of the ship to fly. So for purposes of the fluff your ps1 defender pilot is equivalent to a higher ps on a humble TIE.

As for the phantom think of agility as standard modified by the difficulty to hit - after all does any ship become more agile at range 3. Thematically for me the attacker has a broad idea where the cloaked ship is but is firing slightly blind hence the moddifier.

At the end of the day though it's about game mechanics being balanced and I think despite some of the initial misgivings ffg have nailed it again.

First, you have to understand that the Phantom's pilot skill are likely to be 100% game mechanic driven. I'm pretty certain the PS was designed around the usage of the Advanced Cloaking Device. Without the higher pilot skill, the Advanced Cloaking Device would be pretty worthless on the generics.

Really, I wouldn't get down on the pilot skill. I don't think the fluff translates all that well.

On the Defender I completely agree. The generics PS is too low and doesn't jive with the canon of the ship. Of course the EU is shot so I guess it doesn't matter. Yes, I know the argument that the Defender is a "newer" ship and tough to fly and a handful for a skilled pilot. But I don't buy it. You put a veteran F-15 pilot in a F-22, he's still going to be a dangerous pilot. At the very least the Defender generics should have been PS 2 and 4. I think FFG was a tad too conservative when they were valuing the Defender. I know they don't want to bring in a game breaking ship but I think its priced 1 or 2 points too high.

I like how they translated cloaking into the game and your version really is about the same. 3 agility dice against unmodified dice or 4 agility dice against modified dice.

First, you have to understand that the Phantom's pilot skill are likely to be 100% game mechanic driven. I'm pretty certain the PS was designed around the usage of the Advanced Cloaking Device. Without the higher pilot skill, the Advanced Cloaking Device would be pretty worthless on the generics.

I absolutely agree. However, if the clocking worked more like Dark Curse’s ability instead, then higher PS would not be as vital.

I like how they translated cloaking into the game and your version really is about the same. 3 agility dice against unmodified dice or 4 agility dice against modified dice.

You haven't seen me roll green dice...

I like the phantom. Flying circles around opponents is easily the most fun thing I've done in this game. I haven't quite figured out how to attack with it, however. I think I one-shotted an interceptor once, maybe clipped a few shields from a firespray, but nothing that made it my defacto ship of choice.

The phantom needs to avoid the direct attack. It works best when using its agility to fly around the edges. Combined with the Advanced Cloaking Device and Veteran Instincts for Whisper and Echo, the Phantom is pretty formidable.

I'm going to go with, eh.

Your complaints are pretty minor. If anything I'd be more concerned about the defender's dial and its difficulty turning/clearing stress. PS1 is a good thing. It offers a low price and great blocking potential. I would see having the lowest PS at PS3 as a disadvantage on the defender, much like it is on the Bounty Hunter(which I would love a PS1 version of for 31 points. Can you imagine?) I mean, we have a PS1 Interceptor as well. Shouldn't it have higher base Pilot skill?

If you recall TIE Fighter Delta Squadron was the designation of the 6 Defender Prototypes from the ISD Garett, lead by Vader (Delta 6) and Mareek Steelle (Delta 1), which made the dash to Courscant to save the Emperor after Grand Admiral Zaarin's attack on Vader's fleet. None of Delta pilots had any prior experience flying the Defender but those where only ships the Garett had that could make the flight.

So PS1 might not be that off for them.

agility value is a combination of all factors that make your ship hard to hit, maneuverability being the most obvious but not the only factor. Consider the range 3 or obstacle agility bonus. Your ship does not get more maneuverable just because you are far away or on the other side of some asteroids, it's just harder for the enemy to hit you due to distance or obstacles. Same with the stealth device, it just makes you harder to detect and target, which translates to an extra agility.

imo 4 dice is pretty tame for a ship that is invisible

agility value is a combination of all factors that make your ship hard to hit, maneuverability being the most obvious but not the only factor. Consider the range 3 or obstacle agility bonus. Your ship does not get more maneuverable just because you are far away or on the other side of some asteroids, it's just harder for the enemy to hit you due to distance or obstacles. Same with the stealth device, it just makes you harder to detect and target, which translates to an extra agility.

Okay... not bad examples

imo 4 dice is pretty tame for a ship that is invisible

But this is exactly my point - this ship should be harder to hit because you cannot see it, and because it just disappeared from your TC. I think this would be better captured in the gameplay by disallowing modifiers when attacking it, rather than just adding more green dice

But this is exactly my point - this ship should be harder to hit because you cannot see it, and because it just disappeared from your TC. I think this would be better captured in the gameplay by disallowing modifiers when attacking it, rather than just adding more green dice[/quote

While logical in-universe, that probably would make it obscenely powerful here

agility value is a combination of all factors that make your ship hard to hit, maneuverability being the most obvious but not the only factor. Consider the range 3 or obstacle agility bonus. Your ship does not get more maneuverable just because you are far away or on the other side of some asteroids, it's just harder for the enemy to hit you due to distance or obstacles. Same with the stealth device, it just makes you harder to detect and target, which translates to an extra agility.

Okay... not bad examples

imo 4 dice is pretty tame for a ship that is invisible

But this is exactly my point - this ship should be harder to hit because you cannot see it, and because it just disappeared from your TC. I think this would be better captured in the gameplay by disallowing modifiers when attacking it, rather than just adding more green dice

I wrecked that quote. Apologies. Mobile is not the platform for this.

I like the PS 1! PS 2 doesn't jive as well with Imperials. Defender can still fill a blocking roll at PS 1, not to mention it is very easy to pull a white 4 K Turn when you move first. All perks in my book.

I'm going to go with, eh.

Your complaints are pretty minor. If anything I'd be more concerned about the defender's dial and its difficulty turning/clearing stress. PS1 is a good thing. It offers a low price and great blocking potential. I would see having the lowest PS at PS3 as a disadvantage on the defender, much like it is on the Bounty Hunter(which I would love a PS1 version of for 31 points. Can you imagine?) I mean, we have a PS1 Interceptor as well. Shouldn't it have higher base Pilot skill?

Indeed. A PS1 Defender is also practically never going to have it's awesome yet entirely predictable white K-turn blocked. Fly a higher PS pilot however... you might find a rather smug-looking ship sat exactly where you wanted to be...

agility value is a combination of all factors that make your ship hard to hit, maneuverability being the most obvious but not the only factor. Consider the range 3 or obstacle agility bonus. Your ship does not get more maneuverable just because you are far away or on the other side of some asteroids, it's just harder for the enemy to hit you due to distance or obstacles. Same with the stealth device, it just makes you harder to detect and target, which translates to an extra agility.

Okay... not bad examples

imo 4 dice is pretty tame for a ship that is invisible

But this is exactly my point - this ship should be harder to hit because you cannot see it, and because it just disappeared from your TC. I think this would be better captured in the gameplay by disallowing modifiers when attacking it, rather than just adding more green dice

Interesting fact, except at range 1 that would actually make the Phantom harder to hit. Especially in cases where a ship can stack accuracy mods. In addition it would make the noncloaked Phantom harder to hit as well, severly limiting the Phantoms biggest weakness(attacks from higher PS pilots) Basically, it would make the Phantom better, and people are already complaining.

It's almost like they play tested this stuff!

Sarcasm aside, a lot of work obviously went in to developing an interesting and balanced game mechanic to simulate invisible units in a miniatures game. It works very well, and it is certainly better than any alternatives that we can spitball on the forums.

This is a game, not a movie. The mechanics have to be fun (for both players) as well as thematic. (De)cloaking is really a re-positioning mechanic. The defensive bonus is just gravy. The lower skill on Defenders allows you to use them for fewer points; it looks like the the Delta pilots are a lot more popular than the Onyx ones. The higher skill on the Phantoms makes the generic pilots relevant because they decloak after most other unnamed pilots have already moved.

The Phantom and Defender are a couple of the most interesting ships in the game, and nothing from the previous waves is obsolescent.

agility value is a combination of all factors that make your ship hard to hit, maneuverability being the most obvious but not the only factor. Consider the range 3 or obstacle agility bonus. Your ship does not get more maneuverable just because you are far away or on the other side of some asteroids, it's just harder for the enemy to hit you due to distance or obstacles. Same with the stealth device, it just makes you harder to detect and target, which translates to an extra agility.

Okay... not bad examples

imo 4 dice is pretty tame for a ship that is invisible

But this is exactly my point - this ship should be harder to hit because you cannot see it, and because it just disappeared from your TC. I think this would be better captured in the gameplay by disallowing modifiers when attacking it, rather than just adding more green dice

Interesting fact, except at range 1 that would actually make the Phantom harder to hit. Especially in cases where a ship can stack accuracy mods. In addition it would make the noncloaked Phantom harder to hit as well, severly limiting the Phantoms biggest weakness(attacks from higher PS pilots) Basically, it would make the Phantom better, and people are already complaining.

It's almost like they play tested this stuff!

Sarcasm aside, a lot of work obviously went in to developing an interesting and balanced game mechanic to simulate invisible units in a miniatures game. It works very well, and it is certainly better than any alternatives that we can spitball on the forums.

This is a game, not a movie. The mechanics have to be fun (for both players) as well as thematic. (De)cloaking is really a re-positioning mechanic. The defensive bonus is just gravy. The lower skill on Defenders allows you to use them for fewer points; it looks like the the Delta pilots are a lot more popular than the Onyx ones. The higher skill on the Phantoms makes the generic pilots relevant because they decloak after most other unnamed pilots have already moved.

The Phantom and Defender are a couple of the most interesting ships in the game, and nothing from the previous waves is obsolescent.

The Defender generic pilots should have been PS 3 and 5 (instead of the Phantoms)

The pilot skills are set for gameplay, not lore. Phantoms have higher PS because they rely on it. The Sigma phantom is PS3 so that it gets the drop on low band pilots, and the Shadow Phantom is 5 to get the drop on all standard non-uniques.

The Defender has a 1 and a 3 because they don't need pilot skill. Plus, pilot skill isn't the skill of the pilot only, it's the skill in that ship. I'm pretty sure the Prototype Pilot isn't less skilled than Rookie Pilot, the A-wing is simply much more demanding.

TIE Defenders – this is my favorite ship from the video games and I was very excited to have use it in X-Wing. However, I think having the non-unique pilots at 1 and 3 PS is a very poor choice. Defender Pilots were only hardened veterans

The stat called "Pilot Skill" in this game is purely a matter of timing. The designers have called it "Pilot Skill" to be colorful. In fact, it is an "order of action" number that works differently depending on the current phase of the game. Don't confuse the hard game-mechanic use of "Pilot Skill" with the very loose and abstract notion of a fictional character's dogfighting prowess.

The reason why lower-PS Defenders don't have Elite Talent slots is because the loose/abstract "dogfighting prowess" notion of their pilots is incorporated into the Defender's 3/3/3/3 stats and maneuver dial, because the ship cards in this game are actually pilot+ship cards. There's no way (yet) to put a less-than-qualified pilot into any ship. If you could, you'd probably see degraded stats and maneuver options. So you don't get to put an inexperienced pilot into a Defender. Even a PS 1 Defender pilot is a seasoned veteran who is perfectly competent at the controls. But there are even better Defender pilots who know a few more tricks -- and those pilots get Elite Talent slots.

As for the Phantom, it's fine. No one is complaining that cloaked Phantoms are too easy to hit.

agility value is a combination of all factors that make your ship hard to hit, maneuverability being the most obvious but not the only factor. Consider the range 3 or obstacle agility bonus. Your ship does not get more maneuverable just because you are far away or on the other side of some asteroids, it's just harder for the enemy to hit you due to distance or obstacles. Same with the stealth device, it just makes you harder to detect and target, which translates to an extra agility.

Okay... not bad examples

imo 4 dice is pretty tame for a ship that is invisible

But this is exactly my point - this ship should be harder to hit because you cannot see it, and because it just disappeared from your TC. I think this would be better captured in the gameplay by disallowing modifiers when attacking it, rather than just adding more green dice

Interesting fact, except at range 1 that would actually make the Phantom harder to hit. Especially in cases where a ship can stack accuracy mods. In addition it would make the noncloaked Phantom harder to hit as well, severly limiting the Phantoms biggest weakness(attacks from higher PS pilots) Basically, it would make the Phantom better, and people are already complaining.

It's almost like they play tested this stuff!

Sarcasm aside, a lot of work obviously went in to developing an interesting and balanced game mechanic to simulate invisible units in a miniatures game. It works very well, and it is certainly better than any alternatives that we can spitball on the forums.

This is a game, not a movie. The mechanics have to be fun (for both players) as well as thematic. (De)cloaking is really a re-positioning mechanic. The defensive bonus is just gravy. The lower skill on Defenders allows you to use them for fewer points; it looks like the the Delta pilots are a lot more popular than the Onyx ones. The higher skill on the Phantoms makes the generic pilots relevant because they decloak after most other unnamed pilots have already moved.

The Phantom and Defender are a couple of the most interesting ships in the game, and nothing from the previous waves is obsolescent.

Well nothing is newly obsolete.(Poor Tie Advanced.)

I chose that word carefully. If the Transport and Aces expansions are any indication, we can hope that there is something coming for the ships that still aren't competitive, which I guess would be the opposite of obsolescent.