As in lifting a Krayt Dragon wouldn't be someone without probably a FR5 could even attempt.

1 hour ago, RicoD said:

Any opinions or input would be most welcome of course.

As you noted, the chance is low. Getting 3 pips should be common with 2 dice, but not guaranteed, and using a black pip is probably required. Once you get FR 3, you're guaranteed 3 pips, so the GM is right about power creep, but the difficulty will always be onerous, and as noted there are weapon damage amounts that come close to that, especially jury-rigged autofire.

Far be it from me to defend Move, though, I despise it, not only for the concerns your GM has, but for the fact that it allows such things to be done at all. Maybe in Legends people were tossing around Krayt Dragons, but in the movies even Yoda had a hard time stopping an *empty* Krayt Dragon-sized canister from crushing his friends. The simplest change you can make without rewriting the whole thing is to require an extra pip for each Silhouette, which means somebody would need 5 pips to even lift a Krayt Dragon, never mind throw it. This pushes the requirements out to FR 3 as an unlikely minimum, which is still too low IMHO, but might work for your table.

I ended up writing my own. It's still being tested, but I think it works better and sticks to a movie and TCW flavour. If you're interested, send me a note.

My personal gut approach would probably be cutting the damage per silhouette down a notch.

But I guess we'll have to actually experience it RAW first to make any sound judgement calls.

Thanks for the answers guys!

Per RAW, yes, you can hurl the Krayt dragon, if you have the pips to cover the Strenght and control upgrades.

Don't forget you need to make a discipline check as well based on the silhouette of the Dragon and the dragon gets to resist and adversary would likely apply. Not as easy as people make it out to be.

Hurling the Krayt Dragon at what exactly? It says they can "hurl objects to damage targets..." What exactly is the target this Krayt Dragon will be hurled against? Hitting sand dunes would deal considerably less than the side of a jagged mountain. Maybe add some setbacks or boosts depending on what the dragon will be slammed against.

I think earlier commentary about the challenge in pulling it off is, unfortunately, mitigation enough against this type of attack/build. Jury-rigged, auto-fire kill machines, and tricked out vibro-ax wielding Marauders, are just as brutal. Getting your own Discipline to GYYYY+FF(F) in the hope of facing a difficulty RRRP Nemesis means you've kind of earned the right to be Galen Marek .

To make you feel better, given how much they've invested into Force Chuck , think about how crap they are going to be with every other check that they are not proficient in. Also, you could remind them that if they had stolen a starfighter and shot the Krayt Dragon from the skies, they could have saved themselves around 300XP.

Final thought: Krayt Dragon's are territorial, so attacking one that is defending its territory would be quite malicious and probably warrant some Conflict points; unless it was attacking children or a settlement right at the time they encounter it.

Not to mention it takes around 500xp just to do this trick reliably. So by that you should expect this to be a thing. In most games it is not even going to be an issue.

9 hours ago, RicoD said:

As in, you just don't use it in your game at all?

He nukes a lot of stuff, it seems, based upon his grousing.

I don't find it OP at all. It's right on par with all the force powers...

As for moving beings - Move technically says objects, but beings are a subset of objects, and it doesn't actually exclude beings. Now, flinging the Krayt Dragon is going to be hard to do with the levels of force dice most groups will see. Plus, being a major Rival or Nemesis, it's going to require succeeding on a discipline vs discipline...

remember, each triggered strength upgrade adds as many sizes as the number of strength upgrades purchased. So, getting to lift a size 3 or 4 rancor is no big deal.

Then again, we see Anakin yank a star destroyer out of flight. In canon. Let's see, scale 6, range planetary long... if he's got the whole tree (and its Anakin, the ¨ber munchkin, of course he does)... spends 1 pip to activate, 2 pips more to trigger two strengths (sil ≤8), personal short to planetary long is pM-pL-(pXvC)-vS-vM-vL... 6 range bands, so 2 more pips (3 bands per), and the control upgrade means it does 60 points of damage (to self and the ground) ... so it does 6 vehicular damage (which his GM seems to fail to convert, doing the whole 60 as vehicle damage). Then he grinds it along the ground for several rounds.... until it stops. Only 5 pips needed. Anakin's got at least 6 force rating (based upon other wild stuff in TCW/CW)... But his player is too much into wild mopey stuff to play it well...

59 minutes ago, AK_Aramis said:

He nukes a lot of stuff, it seems, based upon his grousing.

I don't find it OP at all. It's right on par with all the force powers...

As for moving beings - Move technically says objects, but beings are a subset of objects, and it doesn't actually exclude beings. Now, flinging the Krayt Dragon is going to be hard to do with the levels of force dice most groups will see. Plus, being a major Rival or Nemesis, it's going to require succeeding on a discipline vs discipline...

I would allow the Krayt Dragon to use his Resilience score as well.

I have yet to run into the "Move=Broken" problem, and anecdotally, it seems to be more of a problem on paper than it is in play. I think part of the trouble is that, when released, the maximum possible Force Rating was 2, and you had to complete a second Talent tree just to get there. As a Seer or Sage, you can hit FR 3 in a few sessions.

If Move needs a fix, (and I'm not sure that it does, but it might), it's very simple to just cut a couple Strength upgrades off the tree. Suddenly you need a lot more pips to lift anything really massive, but you can still wreck shop. I think it's much cooler to smash a window and Autofire the shards of glass anyway.

2 hours ago, AK_Aramis said:

He nukes a lot of stuff, it seems, based upon his grousing.

I don't find it OP at all. It's right on par with all the force powers...

As for moving beings - Move technically says objects, but beings are a subset of objects, and it doesn't actually exclude beings. Now, flinging the Krayt Dragon is going to be hard to do with the levels of force dice most groups will see. Plus, being a major Rival or Nemesis, it's going to require succeeding on a discipline vs discipline...

remember, each triggered strength upgrade adds as many sizes as the number of strength upgrades purchased. So, getting to lift a size 3 or 4 rancor is no big deal.

Then again, we see Anakin yank a star destroyer out of flight. In canon. Let's see, scale 6, range planetary long... if he's got the whole tree (and its Anakin, the ¨ber munchkin, of course he does)... spends 1 pip to activate, 2 pips more to trigger two strengths (sil ≤8), personal short to planetary long is pM-pL-(pXvC)-vS-vM-vL... 6 range bands, so 2 more pips (3 bands per), and the control upgrade means it does 60 points of damage (to self and the ground) ... so it does 6 vehicular damage (which his GM seems to fail to convert, doing the whole 60 as vehicle damage). Then he grinds it along the ground for several rounds.... until it stops. Only 5 pips needed. Anakin's got at least 6 force rating (based upon other wild stuff in TCW/CW)... But his player is too much into wild mopey stuff to play it well...

Did I call you petty? Nope. This is exactly why whafrog told Rico to PM him. This topic is just toxic and some simply can't just offer an opinion that they don't find it OP without being insulting immature dumm@$$es.

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2014 at 9:16 PM, Icosiel said:

I can't for the life of me figure out what that censored word is right before "the weapons out of 3 guys hands"...

S N A T C H

I'm also in the camp that Move looks far more powerful on paper than it is in actual practice. It's easy to come up with all sorts of "what if" scenarios where Move wrecks the game, and there are players that are the exact sort of power-gaming cheese-weasels that will dump everything into Move simply for the thrill of 'breaking' the game. But in actual game play, most players (or at least the vast majority of the one's I've gamed with) just don't go for such a hyper-focused build. And by the time they've got enough XP to pull off those big Move tricks reliably, the other PCs will have their own gimmicks that can be quite devastating in the right circumstances.

For the situation of the krayt dragon, if you're trying to hurl the dragon itself, that's going to be a Discipline check at a Daunting (4 purple) difficulty. It also means the PC has either purchased all four Strength upgrades, is able to generate a lot of Force points if they haven't bought all four Strength upgrades. Plus there's Range upgrade(s) unless you want to get with in easy squishing range of said krayt dragon, so even with everything purchased that's at least 3 Force points you need to roll, on top of the Discipline check required to hurl the dragon in the first place.

And as a GM, I probably would make it an opposed check against the dragon's Athletics or Resilience (since it's probably got a Brawn of at least 5, if not 6), and with at least a couple ranks in either skill, that's at minimum difficulty of 2 red and 3 purple, which unless this PC has also sunk a lot of points into Discipline is going to be a very tall order for them to accomplish, since if you fail the Discipline check then you don't get to inflict damage with the Move power.

16 hours ago, 2P51 said:

As in lifting a Krayt Dragon wouldn't be someone without probably a FR5 could even attempt.

Even if you are FR5, what is the point in lifting the dragon when it does not inhibit movement of the dragon. "You lifted the dragon with your action. Gz. Now the dragon moves into engage with you and eats your face."
Hurling is great to do damage still.
Both face the challenge that a Krayt Dragon has a kickass resilience and can resist the whole force power with it, furthermore soak should be top notch. Any character who can overcome that problem as well "deserves" his extra damage. Even when just shooting the dragon with autofire might have worked better regardless. ;-)

Brawn of a Krayt Dragon might exceed 6. That beast is sil 4 at least, maybe even a small sil 5 creature for the Greater Krayt Dragon. The greater Krayt Dragon should be statewise even more terrifying than the Sando Aqua Monster, while the Sand Canyon ones might be just sil 4, but maybe not even behind the Sando statewise.

And I am totally off topic, because I totally get what you mean with with not liking the move tree. With about 150xp into the tree it really becomes your catch all force ability, especially if you added 75xp into discipline and even with just 3 force dice.

19 hours ago, RicoD said:

I can certainly see why that would make him uneasy since that would be pretty anit-climatic since a Krayt Dragon is not supposed to be something to just smush in a drive by.

Subsequently he is worried that basically all challenges henceforth will become obsolete since the party will be mostly getting even stronger.

I wouldn't actually consider that anti-climactic. Yes, I'd encourage you to look for some way to not resolve this in a single die roll, but if the Force user does? Narrate the hell out of it. This guy, against all odds, pulled a can of mystical whoop-*** out. As ridiculous as it was, everyone who played The Force Awakens remembers Starkiller pulling down a Star Destroyer. Let it be a Crowning Moment of Awesome. The story about how, in a moment of almost certain death, the Force user body-slammed a krayt dragon should be a story that any witnesses should be telling their grandkids.

After that, you still have options. Be a fan of the players and let them do those things they built their characters to be awesome at (i.e., let the Force user throw things periodically), but also switch things up. Give them challenges appropriate to their ability (send in an Inquisitor with Suppress and possibly Calming Aura to force him to struggle and possibly call on the Dark Side--it might even be a great opportunity for the GM to say "hey, I'll let you temporarily get an additional Force die if you narrate how you call on those dark emotions and take 10 conflict"; or an Inquisitor with Move of his own for a telekinetic tug-of-war; use a yslamamri if they don't irritate you). Give them times that using their Hulk Smash power isn't appropriate--maybe they're called into a non-combat issue. Maybe they have to infiltrate an Imperial base, and brute force will only get them so far before they're likely to find themselves facing forces even an overpowered Move can't handle. Maybe they need to finalize sensitive negotiations with a political representative to get them to join the Alliance. Maybe there's a combat where there just aren't many toys to be thrown.

If all else fails, discuss it with the player and let them know you have concerns that Move is overpowered, and that it's difficult to design appropriate challenges that both challenge the player and don't leave the other players on the sidelines.

If it were me, I wouldn't use the standard difficulty of 4 purple dice to use the power, I'd make it an opposed check and let the Dragon use its Resilience skill to oppose. Feel free to toss on ranks of Adversary in the mix, and maybe some black dice to boot if it has defenses of any kind.

All in all, there are many ways in this game system to "one shot" the BBG. The move power can be one of those ways as players get more experienced. But honestly, a tricked out Rocket Launcher will probably do just as much, if not more, damage to the dragon.

You don't even have to lift the Krayt Dragon to get the results the latest-OP is concerned about. It's probably in a lair, and surely there are Sil4 boulders laying about. Just throw one at the Krayt Dragon, you get all the same damage without the resistance, except Adversary. And it's not that hard to succeed against CCCD, even if you only have 3 positive dice...I see that kind of thing regularly. Give the PC two or three shots, and it's extremely likely they'll pull it off.

So by the time the PC can crush Krayt Dragons, they can pretty much deal with anything else, and they only had to spend 150XP to get there. That's not "awesome", that's boring. Not everybody wants to play a game that is basically Transformers with the Force.

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

You don't even have to lift the Krayt Dragon to get the results the latest-OP is concerned about. It's probably in a lair, and surely there are Sil4 boulders laying about. Just throw one at the Krayt Dragon, you get all the same damage without the resistance, except Adversary. And it's not that hard to succeed against CCCD, even if you only have 3 positive dice...I see that kind of thing regularly. Give the PC two or three shots, and it's extremely likely they'll pull it off.

So by the time the PC can crush Krayt Dragons, they can pretty much deal with anything else, and they only had to spend 150XP to get there. That's not "awesome", that's boring. Not everybody wants to play a game that is basically Transformers with the Force.

And here you make a good point. Those strength and magnitude upgrades are imo far too strong. They make doing such things easy. We can argue that force users should be able to pull this kind of stuff off, but should they really do it at 300xp gained?

edit:
Though this could be fixed with relative easy if you just change the wording of magnitude and strength upgrade to:
"Spend Force Pipe to increase the number of targets affected by one per pip spend, up to an amount equal to the number of Magnitude upgrades purchased."

Same for magnitude. Force Rating 7 Sith Lords can still throw multiple sil 2 objects per turn after you and your friends. And they can still rip appart whole AT-AT walkers. Padawans and Knights are much more limited by the Force Rating requirements. Summon me some developers and get this into the new errata KRKappel ;-)

1 hour ago, whafrog said:

You don't even have to lift the Krayt Dragon to get the results the latest-OP is concerned about. It's probably in a lair, and surely there are Sil4 boulders laying about. Just throw one at the Krayt Dragon, you get all the same damage without the resistance, except Adversary. And it's not that hard to succeed against CCCD, even if you only have 3 positive dice...I see that kind of thing regularly. Give the PC two or three shots, and it's extremely likely they'll pull it off.

So by the time the PC can crush Krayt Dragons, they can pretty much deal with anything else, and they only had to spend 150XP to get there. That's not "awesome", that's boring. Not everybody wants to play a game that is basically Transformers with the Force.

Don't hurl it, pick it up and with three pips and appropriate upgrades drop it from extreme range, dead Krayt. You're right, it certainly doesn't require anything more than FR3, and I am aware of the difficulty of the opposed roll check, so if it's too hard to drop the Krayt on the mountain, drop the mountain on the Krayt, for 4 pips you can pick up a sil 8 inanimate object like say, the rock of Gibraltar, and drop it on the Krayt, dead Krayt. No issue at all with the mechanics, uh huh, sure, why would anyone have an issue with a PC with a FR3 picking up sil 8 objects, no problem at all there, just fine.

This is the song that never ends and the thing that drives me craziest is people want to debate there isn't a debate, even though the **** topic comes up every other month practically. Whether someone likes it at their table isn't something anyone should debate, that's pointless. To insist there is no issue given how often the same issue is brought up by PCs/GMs new to the forum is Baghdad Bob in the level of denial.

31 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

Don't hurl it, pick it up and with three pips and appropriate upgrades drop it from extreme range, dead Krayt. You're right, it certainly doesn't require anything more than FR3, and I am aware of the difficulty of the opposed roll check, so if it's too hard to drop the Krayt on the mountain, drop the mountain on the Krayt, for 4 pips you can pick up a sil 8 inanimate object like say, the rock of Gibraltar, and drop it on the Krayt, dead Krayt. No issue at all with the mechanics, uh huh, sure, why would anyone have an issue with a PC with a FR3 picking up sil 8 objects, no problem at all there, just fine.

This is the song that never ends and the thing that drives me craziest is people want to debate there isn't a debate, even though the **** topic comes up every other month practically. Whether someone likes it at their table isn't something anyone should debate, that's pointless. To insist there is no issue given how often the same issue is brought up by PCs/GMs new to the forum is Baghdad Bob in the level of denial.

BTW, there has been made the argument that sil 5 is max, because the check becomes impossible afterwards and not just 8 purple dice. *grin* But I am sure you are aware of that too, because it had been debated to death in one of the older topics. The gibraltar rock comes as well with the problem that you need 2 force pips for sil 8 objects, one for the basic power, and at least 1 for the range. And just moving with two maneuvers might still prevent the damage if the GM likes to narrate this "properly"

Based on the developers ideas dropping from extreme works than just fine, because for whatever reason you can accelerate with moving faster than you can with hurl. Those devs are really overworked with all those mails asking them stuff about the system.

Not for an inanimate objects, there is no skill roll. 4 pips, pick up the sil 8 object and lift to extreme range, no rolls. In addition as whafrog pointed out, simply pick up the sil 4 rock and throw that. That's just a ranged attack with Discipline and base 40 damage and only requires 3 pips.

Any RPG system can have it's rules twisted beyond their intent and create a broken game. D&D is particularly infamous for it (3.5 CoDzilla or Leaping Diplomancers anyone?), and with all the splats available you can string together some broketastic combos in GURPS if your GM isn't paying attention. Just about any superhero RPG (HERO system and Mutants & Masterminds especially) can have some freakishly overpowered combos if you know how to massage the system just right. But at the end of the day, you can paint any RPG with that particular brush, even "rules lite" systems such as FATE (Dresden Files was particular lousy with this in regards to the magic system).

It all boils down to how the GM chooses to deal with it. Me, I prefer to spend less time worrying about "what ifs" or "what abouts" and focus on actually running the game and ensuring the players and I have fun.

My primary suggestion for any GM that's worried about their players abusing the Move power? Sit down and talk with the player, and express your concerns about the potential for abuse with whatever bit of the rules is troubling you. I've done this more than a few times across different systems, and frankly it works wonders, if for no other reason than you as the GM are demonstrating that you trust the players. I've seen a number of instances where the GM made arbitrary changes to the rules "just because they didn't like the way something looked on paper" without consulting the players ahead of time, effectively making the statement that they don't trust the players to behave without the GM taking a heavy-handed approach, and more often than not it's lead to resentment and the game ultimately falling apart.

But in the same breath, don't be afraid to give the players a chance to have their characters do something awesome . Being able to forcibly hurl a freaking krayt dragon through the power of the character's own will is not the sort of thing that occurs in every game session, and will probably be one of those moments that the gaming group will talk about for months, if not years afterward. For a while, a frequent topic of discussion in one gaming group I was in was the time my PC used a full-grown Rancor as a bowling ball to wipe out a huge group of combat droids (this was a Legacy Era Saga Edition game), which I suspect that had the GM taken pages from 2P51 or whafrog's playbook would be an event that never would have happened, and thus denying our group a cool scene that got brought in discussion for months after the fact.

TL,DR: If you're afraid of the player abusing Move, talk with them about it. Then, ignore anything that everyone else here has said about how to handle it and come to a decision that you and the player(s) can agree upon that works for you game to ensure everyone, GM and players, has fun.

There's nothing abusive about using the RAW, and if there needs to be a 'talk' about the mechanics, that's a tacit acknowledgement there is an issue with the mechanics. Whether it involves a 'talk' or a house rule changing the power, it's the same thing. I'd also rather focus on having fun, and I'd rather just have a Move Power that isn't broken.

13 minutes ago, 2P51 said:

There's nothing abusive about using the RAW...

Haven't you and whafrog pretty much just been posting here about how Move can be "abused" in various ways, all that are within line of how the power was written in the book? If there wasn't an issue with Move as written being abused to in some shape or form sour the gaming experience, why exactly would whafrog feel it was necessary to create a revision of the Move power that scales down what it can do? Or your own recent post about simply raising the krayt dragon up to extreme range and then just letting it plummet, which is itself a pretty through abuse of the intent of the rules for Move if not the exact letter of the rules.

There's Letter of the Rules, and there's Spirit of the Rules. If one goes strictly by Letter of the Rules, then really nothing in any RPG can be "abused" since it's all rules-legal. Prime example would be autofire; using it as the rules are written in the book isn't abusing the rules themselves, but there's been a slew of posters that have complained about how it's skewed combat encounters and there's probably been more suggested "fixes" posted than we have active GMs posting to this forum. But spirit of the rules (i.e. what the designers most likely intended), autofire and Move have been horrifically abused by players.

But, that itself is a philosophical discussion that is neither here nor there.

24 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

But in the same breath, don't be afraid to give the players a chance to have their characters do something awesome . Being able to forcibly hurl a freaking krayt dragon through the power of the character's own will is not the sort of thing that occurs in every game session, and will probably be one of those moments that the gaming group will talk about for months, if not years afterward.

Depends on what you think of as "awesome". Hurling a Krayt Dragon is not awesome to me, it completely violates the sense of "within-the-movies-verisimillitude" that I'm going for. My players wouldn't even like it if they could do it, it would make the whole thing smell of cheese. They get plenty of "awesome" in ways they can relate to which aren't only about how much POWAH! one can bring to bear on a question. So based on that feedback I'm comfortable with the level of "awesome" I'm providing. YMMV.

I don't begrudge anyone who likes the RAW Move power. But these threads are created by people who have a different take. Sweeping those concerns under the rug with arguments like "impose narrative/Conflict penalties for that flashy display" or "it's no more broken than auto-fire" or "Weee! It's Force Unleashed all over again!" entirely misses the point. I don't like solutions to a problem where you take something away that the rules have given, which is what is sometimes proposed for auto-fire (use Despair to break their gun): that smacks of the GM being arbitrary on a situational basis. I'd much rather not give too much away to begin with, than find out mid-campaign that something is broken.

This is the only Force power that generates this level of conflict. FFG could do everybody a favour and release both a "utilitarian" and a "Force Unleashed" version...or even have one lead into the other...or even for once break that *$&$ 4x5 grid and do something a little more inventive.

36 minutes ago, whafrog said:

...it completely violates the sense of "within-the-movies-verisimillitude"...

I've seen you trot this out repeatedly whenever the topic of Move comes up, and yet I can't help but wonder how it is you react the sheer plethora of material that's cropped up in the FFG books that has never made any appearance within the movies. After all, there's nothing in the films to suggest that Battle Meditation, Seek, and Misdirect exist, and only circumstantial evidence of Heal from two brief scenes but nothing to indicate the Harm portion of the power is a thing. Same with Manipulate out of Endless Vigil, or Imbue and Ebb/Flow from Disciples of Harmony; do those get allowed or are your players outlawed from taking them because there's nothing in the movies to suggest they're a thing? Or even the quantity of species, ships, weapons, armor, and gear that's not even appeared in a single frame of the films, and yet has been included in the FFG books. Do these break your "within-the-movies-verisimilltude" that you keep trotting out and thus get removed from your games, or do you simply just shrug it off and move on with running the game?

Side note, what if in Episodes 8 or 9, we see a Force user break out these exact sort of crazy Move shenanigans, such as hurling around freighters like they're pebbles or simply "Force Unleashed" antics that break with your current view on what is and isn't allowable? It's already been mentioned by Adam Driver in an interview that the direction of The Last Jedi has done some things that "change the rules" where the Force is concerned, so perhaps Rian decided to include a scene where Luke simply looks up into the sky and casually slams a pair of orbiting Star Destroyers into one another? Would you adjust your stance on Move to say, "okay, well this is a thing that's happened in the movies, so it's not out of the realm of possibility," or do you stick to your current stance and say "not in my game, I don't care what they do in the new movies!"?