I have never bought ships just for their cards. I did overdo my preorder on HWKs though thinking that they (and blaster turrets, especially on the Y-wing) would be better before they were fully spoiled

I think Veteran Instincts could use a reprint though, maybe engine upgrade too.

VI comes with both the Falcon and the Firespray. And you rarely need more than one copy of it.

And you get two engine upgrades in the Falcon, when do you need more than two and if so, more than four?

Epic games and Lambda Shuttles. 6 Lambdas means room for 6 engine upgrades if you want to run half your points as space cattle.

I did forget the Lambda, but to be honest if you own 6 Lambda shuttles, is it going to be unlikely that you don't own three YT-1300's?

For some people, possibly. As I've recently found out, there are quite a few people who have problems with the idea of putting that much money into ships that they might not use.That could also be said about six Lambdas

What's interesting is that the Bay of E doesn't really sell cards separately.

It does here in the UK. The problem is there is only one seller, so the prices are high and the cards everyone wants are not available.

As an example, the C3PO crew card was £8.99. The others from the Tantive ranged from £4.99 to £6.99.

X-Wing hasn't really gotten big enough yet for sellers to consider buying the ships, splitting up the contents and selling them separately. This also wouldn't work as well as with other games, e.g. Games Workshop where you can sell the bits or MtG where you can sell the individual cards. For X-Wing, you sell the upgrade cards, but that leaves you with unique pilots that no one wants (with a few exceptions), generic pilots that are un-usable without the ships, tokens that no one wants and ships that you won't get enough money for to justify doing the whole splitting thing in the first place, since most people want the upgrade cards too!

Downside: You wont get people to buy the mini's just to get cards.

Which costs FFG money. Unless the price of the card packs is such that you'd spend nearly as much money buying those as you would a model.

Upside: It will slow people from using photoshop to make their cards.

Which doesn't effect FFG in the least. It's not like piracy in the software sense. Because people have already invested at least some cash in the game to have enough to play at all.

So what reason is there for FFG to do this? They lose money and gain nothing really. If they were more like GW and had a huge issue with public opinion to start with, then perhaps. But FFG is a great company and their rep doesn't need to be fixed as far as I can tell.

There is one "flaw" in X-Wing as I see it, the need to buy some models for cards. If there was some way for FFG to fix that and not cut into their bottom line I'm sure they would. In fact they have to a point by putting AdvSen in E-Wings and PtL in Imp Aces.

Personally I feel its a low ball business tactic. "Forcing" the consumer to purchase an expansion they don't want just for a side card is greedy at best.

The problem mainly stems from having cards that you can only get one way. Forcing a rebel player to buy an imp shuttle just for a card they need is ludicrous.

Every expansion pack should have a card pack that could be purchased for 30-50% of the expansion price.

They would make a killing.

I disagree with a couple of these points:

1. I don't consider this low ball at all. I think low ball would have been random packs of cards that were only available with a ship purchase. Fantasy Flight is a business and is trying to make profit. Just the licensing alone makes this product line a heavy investment on their part. I feel they've done a great job of balancing consumer desire and profitable business model. The game is balanced enough that you don't need "all the things", and no 1 card or combo is an "I win". They've made it easy for any player to know what they need to by to get the cards/combos they want while at the same time ensuring there is some profit in it.

2. I think card packs would actually lose them money and put the product line at risk in the longer term. If the card packs were random it would be like magic and a horrible money grab. If the packs were set and specific to each wave people would buy far less ships and a few packs of cards. This doesn't just cut into FFG sales, but the profitability of your FLGS. They also make money on the sales, and frequently shelf space is a premium for things that sell. "Why carry a bunch of figures that don't sell as well when I can just sell these cards" becomes an attitude some retailers take. This reduces product visibility and that slows impulse buys and shows down growth to new players.

I would like to see this game continue to succeed in the long term. I think that FFGs approach is a good one for that. You don't HAVE to spend money the way you HAVE to spend it to be competitive in things like Warhammer & Magic. Instead, if you choose to spend money similar to those games you wind up with "all of the things" instead of just 1 army or deck.

FFG doesn't want players that only play one faction. They want us to buy all their ships. There is no reason Imperial or Rebel players are entitled to every card. It isn't a low move. You can get every card and ship in the game for less than most players spend per year on new magic cards.

Let's not forget, retailers are also likely not too thrilled with the shear amount of SKUs FFG games can have. I mean, the game right now requires a lot of space for display. I know my local store is really cramming it in, with this game, Attack Wing, and the LCGs. I really don't think a card expansion pack for each wave will be appreciated, let alone sell well enough to justify stocking it.

FFG doesn't want players that only play one faction. They want us to buy all their ships. There is no reason Imperial or Rebel players are entitled to every card. It isn't a low move. You can get every card and ship in the game for less than most players spend per year on new magic cards.

Sorry Aminar have to disagree with you...

1. While the term "low move" is somewhat subjective. I think it is a at minimum a slightly manipulative practice to configure your product offerings to strongly encourage over-buying. Cost, reprinting and quality of the game minimize the effect but it still is there. Where as other common marketing methods are less "low or manipulative" like offering deluxe packs or Rebel packs or groups etc.

2. Why should a player NOT be entitled to reasonable access to cards? Entitled is a loaded word, I added reasonable access cause that is what we are talking about. That is the point of this argument, in order to get a card to use on my rebel ship I have to buy a Imperial ship I might not use (or vice versa).

3. Cost related to other games is not really the point and does not justify anything. If someone else jumped off a bridge?... What it does do is mitigate the effect of FFGs practice, reducing the "penalty" but it certainly does not justify it.

There could be a number of reasons why FFG doesn't offer card packs. Cause honestly they probably would be more profitable then a full expansion. I just can't see a model having a higher profit margin then cards, but I don't know. Could be they don't want to confuse the player base. Could be their resources are stretched right now and don't want to complicate things even further. Could be they are straight up milking the cash/popularity.

Bottom line is I think FFG has made a great game and while it does stink that some cards are limited to specific ships it is a small dig on an otherwise very very well run game and company.

FFG doesn't want players that only play one faction. They want us to buy all their ships. There is no reason Imperial or Rebel players are entitled to every card. It isn't a low move. You can get every card and ship in the game for less than most players spend per year on new magic cards.

Sorry Aminar have to disagree with you...

1. While the term "low move" is somewhat subjective. I think it is a at minimum a slightly manipulative practice to configure your product offerings to strongly encourage over-buying. Cost, reprinting and quality of the game minimize the effect but it still is there. Where as other common marketing methods are less "low or manipulative" like offering deluxe packs or Rebel packs or groups etc.

2. Why should a player NOT be entitled to reasonable access to cards? Entitled is a loaded word, I added reasonable access cause that is what we are talking about. That is the point of this argument, in order to get a card to use on my rebel ship I have to buy a Imperial ship I might not use (or vice versa).

3. Cost related to other games is not really the point and does not justify anything. If someone else jumped off a bridge?... What it does do is mitigate the effect of FFGs practice, reducing the "penalty" but it certainly does not justify it.

There could be a number of reasons why FFG doesn't offer card packs. Cause honestly they probably would be more profitable then a full expansion. I just can't see a model having a higher profit margin then cards, but I don't know. Could be they don't want to confuse the player base. Could be their resources are stretched right now and don't want to complicate things even further. Could be they are straight up milking the cash/popularity.

Bottom line is I think FFG has made a great game and while it does stink that some cards are limited to specific ships it is a small dig on an otherwise very very well run game and company.

Being able to buy the ship with the card you want is reasonable access. in fact it's more than reasonable. It's freaking fantastic in comparison to most games. if you wanted to build an army you know exactly what you have to buy, and how much it costs. And that comparison matters.

Profit is not unethical. Trying to make mony is not unethical. Trying to sell your product is not unethical. If you can't afford to buy the ship the card comes with, or don't feel it's worth it that is your business and your problem. FFG should not be catering to you to help you get everything you need in one faction, or only in small ship packs, or in boosters, or anything. They make the product available, you buy what you feel you want. Hell, it would have been smarter of them to not incude Advanced Sensors in the E-Wing or Push the limit in Aces. they've been remarkably good about things like that.

FFG doesn't want players that only play one faction. They want us to buy all their ships. There is no reason Imperial or Rebel players are entitled to every card. It isn't a low move. You can get every card and ship in the game for less than most players spend per year on new magic cards.

Sorry Aminar have to disagree with you...

1. While the term "low move" is somewhat subjective. I think it is a at minimum a slightly manipulative practice to configure your product offerings to strongly encourage over-buying. Cost, reprinting and quality of the game minimize the effect but it still is there. Where as other common marketing methods are less "low or manipulative" like offering deluxe packs or Rebel packs or groups etc.

2. Why should a player NOT be entitled to reasonable access to cards? Entitled is a loaded word, I added reasonable access cause that is what we are talking about. That is the point of this argument, in order to get a card to use on my rebel ship I have to buy a Imperial ship I might not use (or vice versa).

3. Cost related to other games is not really the point and does not justify anything. If someone else jumped off a bridge?... What it does do is mitigate the effect of FFGs practice, reducing the "penalty" but it certainly does not justify it.

There could be a number of reasons why FFG doesn't offer card packs. Cause honestly they probably would be more profitable then a full expansion. I just can't see a model having a higher profit margin then cards, but I don't know. Could be they don't want to confuse the player base. Could be their resources are stretched right now and don't want to complicate things even further. Could be they are straight up milking the cash/popularity.

Bottom line is I think FFG has made a great game and while it does stink that some cards are limited to specific ships it is a small dig on an otherwise very very well run game and company.

1. You list "less manipulative" strategies but have left out that this industry thrives on the "more manipulative" strategies based on random purchases. Yes, their system encourages some over purchasing. Not to the extent that many other game manufacturers do though. That is why I don't consider it "low".

2. The key is "reasonable access". I think that the access is absolutely reasonable. There isn't "rare" anything. Ask Star Trek people about reasonable access to things. If there is a piece to this game you want, you know exactly where to get it. Most of the time it's msrp is $15, which means as low as $10 based on where you shop. That seems reasonable to be, but others will likely disagree with me.

3. Cost related to other games is absolutely the point. As a business, that is their competition. If someone is going to spend money on a miniature war game, FFG would rather they get the business than Games Workshop. The price point, and value of what you get is designed with that in mind. As a company, their goal is to create a product people are willing to spend money on do they can profit. Their competitors directly affect how they can do this.

If their goal was to eke out a small profit while providing a great game to the public there are things they could do differently. Add the general goal of any business is to maximise profit I feel they've done a great job of creating a system that's generally affordable, cost efficient to the consumer, but allows the company good profit opportunities.

Cause honestly they probably would be more profitable then a full expansion. I just can't see a model having a higher profit margin then cards, but I don't know.

Lets consider... Because I'd be in favor of some sort of card pack myself.

Lets say they make a Rebels Wave 1 and Imperial Wave 1 pack. Each pack includes 1 copy of every card that came with Rebel/Imperial ships for that wave.

What would you charge for a pack like that? For Wave 1 each pack would include 20 cards, with about half being pilots half upgrades. For 20 cards I'd pay between $3-5 per pack.

While that might be a fair amount of profit per pack for them. You have to consider the cost of lost sales of other ships. If I can just buy upgrade cards, then I'll buy fewer ships... Is the profit on a card pack going to make up for the loss of the sales of a model?

The idea that you had to buy a Shuttle to get a AdvSen or a CR-90 to get 3-CP0 is not a new topic here by any means. But there is pretty much 2 ways you can get the cards to people.

Via the models or via a card pack. The model method does have some issues, but it is hardly unfair or a major burden on people. As others point out, it's not like you're dealing with blind packs here or rarity so you need to buy 10+ X-Wings to get a Wedge.

The dirty trick to saving money on buying ships just for the cards is....to make like ...ONE friend. Try it, poor FFG wont even see it coming those scummy bastards.

Or just find someone who's posts don't make them sound like a scumbag who might wanna trade. That should usually cost you upwards of about 42 cents for the stamp.

Tactics to encourage purchasing your product are not a bad thing. Using addictive methods(such as the near gambling of booster packs) can be construed as such, but even that is standard across much of the gaming world.

Being able to buy the ship with the card you want is reasonable access. in fact it's more than reasonable. It's freaking fantastic in comparison to most games. if you wanted to build an army you know exactly what you have to buy, and how much it costs. And that comparison matters.

Profit is not unethical. Trying to make mony is not unethical. Trying to sell your product is not unethical. If you can't afford to buy the ship the card comes with, or don't feel it's worth it that is your business and your problem. FFG should not be catering to you to help you get everything you need in one faction, or only in small ship packs, or in boosters, or anything. They make the product available, you buy what you feel you want. Hell, it would have been smarter of them to not incude Advanced Sensors in the E-Wing or Push the limit in Aces. they've been remarkably good about things like that.

While I too agree a company can use any tactic they wish, I personally believe some tactics are more honest and some are more manipulative and shady, many tactics have degrees of both.

A good example is the core, many people saw very good value in it resulting in double/triple sales while the waste was minimal vs buying an expansion for a couple of cards.

Confused by your profit comments, I never said anything about companies shouldn't make profits.

1. You list "less manipulative" strategies but have left out that this industry thrives on the "more manipulative" strategies based on random purchases. Yes, their system encourages some over purchasing. Not to the extent that many other game manufacturers do though. That is why I don't consider it "low".

2. The key is "reasonable access". I think that the access is absolutely reasonable. There isn't "rare" anything. Ask Star Trek people about reasonable access to things. If there is a piece to this game you want, you know exactly where to get it. Most of the time it's msrp is $15, which means as low as $10 based on where you shop. That seems reasonable to be, but others will likely disagree with me.

3. Cost related to other games is absolutely the point. As a business, that is their competition. If someone is going to spend money on a miniature war game, FFG would rather they get the business than Games Workshop. The price point, and value of what you get is designed with that in mind. As a company, their goal is to create a product people are willing to spend money on do they can profit. Their competitors directly affect how they can do this.

If their goal was to eke out a small profit while providing a great game to the public there are things they could do differently. Add the general goal of any business is to maximise profit I feel they've done a great job of creating a system that's generally affordable, cost efficient to the consumer, but allows the company good profit opportunities.

1. Not as bad, is still bad. As I am sure I will say over and over again, its not a big deal but it is manipulative more then just offering a good deal or awesome commercial etc.

2. $10 for 1 or 2 cards is reasonable access? This is a threshold of opinion obviously but seems a little lopsided. Cause that is the specific situation we are talking about here. Remember the ever popular Advanced Sensors was on a $20 ship for 9 months before E-wing came out. Which what 33% of the time the games been out?. Better then random, collectible games yeah sure. Again not as bad is still bad.

3. Maybe we are talking about different things... I am not debating X-wing vs anything else. I am debating the practice of encouraging more sales by making cards exclusive to certain ships though usable on all. You are arguing degrees which only matter when comparing the two not the practice itself.

Cause honestly they probably would be more profitable then a full expansion. I just can't see a model having a higher profit margin then cards, but I don't know.

Lets consider... Because I'd be in favor of some sort of card pack myself.

Lets say they make a Rebels Wave 1 and Imperial Wave 1 pack. Each pack includes 1 copy of every card that came with Rebel/Imperial ships for that wave.

What would you charge for a pack like that? For Wave 1 each pack would include 20 cards, with about half being pilots half upgrades. For 20 cards I'd pay between $3-5 per pack.

While that might be a fair amount of profit per pack for them. You have to consider the cost of lost sales of other ships. If I can just buy upgrade cards, then I'll buy fewer ships... Is the profit on a card pack going to make up for the loss of the sales of a model?

The idea that you had to buy a Shuttle to get a AdvSen or a CR-90 to get 3-CP0 is not a new topic here by any means. But there is pretty much 2 ways you can get the cards to people.

Via the models or via a card pack. The model method does have some issues, but it is hardly unfair or a major burden on people. As others point out, it's not like you're dealing with blind packs here or rarity so you need to buy 10+ X-Wings to get a Wedge.

The opposite could possibly be true, they could sell more card packs then extra ship buys. This is all conjecture though, I have no clue of their sales or demographic outside of myself. I would guess they are in good shape with primary demographic of 25-39 which typically is close to peek of earnings especially later.

2. $10 for 1 or 2 cards is reasonable access?

The very idea that you're paying $10 for 1 or 2 cards is simply nonsense. You're getting a number of cards and a model for that $10. Just because the card is the primary thing you want, doesn't change what else you get. You may not have a lot of use for a A-Wing, but that isn't the same thing as saying you'll never use it. So you can't simply discount it as part of the package.

It doesn't matter what you're arguing. You can't ignore the industry they work in, the same as you can't ignore the fact you're getting a ship in the box too. What they are doing is a fantastic sales tactic and is in now way shape or form unethical, low, or sleazy. It's intelligent. Sleazy would be selling extra card packs with random super rare exclusives. Sleazy would be selling card packs seperatly, and charging 10 bucks for 15 cards.

Two of every ship gives you all the cards of a type you should ever need.

I wouldn't mind if FFG released a card pack.

i also don't mind if they just keep x wing the way it is. I too think it's kind of annoying having to buy multiples of a ship that I probably won't use but FFG is doing such a good job with x wing I can't complain. Aminar is right / FFG has a solid buisness model that is actually really fair to players.

anyone play star wars force collection.. total sleezy addictive game that lures you into spending money trying to get ultra rare cards... horriable game. (If you play / pm me I'll add you as a friend)!

2. $10 for 1 or 2 cards is reasonable access?

The very idea that you're paying $10 for 1 or 2 cards is simply nonsense. You're getting a number of cards and a model for that $10. Just because the card is the primary thing you want, doesn't change what else you get. You may not have a lot of use for a A-Wing, but that isn't the same thing as saying you'll never use it. So you can't simply discount it as part of the package.

Exactly. And honestly, it's a choice. People have the choice of spending their money on the game, or not. No one is being 'forced', in any way, shape, or form, to buy ships. I guess folks have to decide whether they want it badly enough.

I fully expect to pay for my products, I just find it distasteful to put sought-after cards in with something like the Tantive. I have no issue spending money on X-Wing miniatures, but not ones I will never use.

Then sell the model to a modder, there's plenty of them out there. Just don't make your problem FFG's responsibility.