I love Soontir Fel and PTL, but I also want to get practice using Echo with the ACD.

I've heard both described as excellent as flankers. So, my question is can they both exist in a competitive list?

What I ran last week was:

Echo with FCS, VI and ACD

Soontir Fel with PTL

Howlrunner with Swarm Tactics

Obsidian Squadron Pilot

and it was very anemic. Soontir was taken out in the third round and Howlrunner went down to focus fire around two rounds later. I got maybe one or two good shots off from Echo. He went down after I beached him on a rock while decloaking. And I was forced to concede as time was running down and my OSP was being chased down. I did knock out one of his Z-95s, but his Wedge was brutal, scoring a hit on Echo even while he was cloaked.

Anyway, any thoughts? Is there a competitive squad out there featuring these two, or should I just use them as flankers in their own individual squads.

As always, thanks for the help.

Love Soontir as well, and considered it echo, Soontir, and bounty Hunter. However, haven't tried it and probably wont because in order to flank, you have to have a main threat that your opponent has to focus on to allow you to flank. Flankers that make up 2/3 rds of your point list just doesn't allow enough points to create a viable threat that forces your opponents to deal with it first. Sadly, I think successful lists will just have one or the other.

Another consideration would be to possibly add a shuttle. Space cows are seen as easy targets, but with 10 HPs and if you add an engine upgrade, you can boost out Of arcs sometimes. That might be a juicy enough carrot to dangle in front of your opponents so they focus on it first allowing you to successfully flank.

If your running an Ace pilot like Fel or Echo/Wisper ... Which I love, your going to need some armor. Spray or at least omni should get the job. Just run a doom shuttle for 24 points. That by itself should be enough of a distraction for at least two turns.

If either Soontir or Echo are in formation with Howlrunner then you're wasting Soontir and Echo's potential and tossing them into the fire. If you don't Howlrun them, then Howlrunner's not worth it with only one formation TIE.

Perhaps drop Howl and Swarm Tactics and buff your Obsidian to a Black Squadron with Predator for 4 more points. It's the same effect, pretty much. This leaves 16 points free, which could be another TIE fighter (both Dark Curse and Night Beast are viable options) or an Academy and Hull Upgrades/Stealth Devices for Echo and/or Soontir or Rebel Captive/Recon Specialist for Echo.

Drop Howlrunner and Obsidian and you free up 33 points. For that you could get a Firespray-31 or TIE defender, or another elite interceptor.

It would be pretty rough fitting Echo and Soontir into a list. Not really sure the best way, since they don't really play nice together. Actually, this might be fun to fly:

Soontir + PtL

Carnor + PtL

Echo + VI + ACD

That gives you 6 points to play with.

Consider, at minimum necessary upgrades 65 points of yours total to 7 HP, and 7 attack. I can, for 63 points of Rookie X-Wings, get 9 attack and 15 HP. Granted, Echo eats them alive and all that Jazz, but the second you run into Han with gunner you're doomed, and Han with Gunner is not unheard of.

You're cramming a lot of your points into two very fragile ships.

It can work. But it has some very severe hard counters.

(Of note, it might be best to try Echo with Decoy to steal Fel's PS9. It's a little better than being stuck with PS8 against some lists.)

The question is what can you do with 34-35 points. If you had one more point you could manage some fun shenanigans with 3 Tie Fighters.

I think

Echo with Decoy and Advanced Cloak

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

3 Academies could be the best Squint Phantom list.

Im attempting to run Echo, Whisper and Turr Phennir in a list of 'Catch me if you Can' kind of way. Gonna get eaten by Turrets but hopefully anything else will be just a case of outflying them.

Of the 3 i would probably drop Whisper (37 points in my build) for either a Defender, a set of Academy Ties or, as has been said above, a Doomshuttle to absorb some hits.

Got a Whisper List with Soontir...

Soontir Fel + PTL + SD

Whisper + VI + Navigator + ACD + (either way) AS or FCS

2x Academy who are staying with Soontir (at the first 2 moves)

won a couple of times with that...

Dunno why all say you need armor...

You fly at the last... and shoot first with both.

The enemy has to decide to either go for Soontir or Whisper which give you at least one ship to flank.

And the key on both.. movement...

And if the opponent decides to break up his formation be clever and run with Whisper... uncloak.... fly away either out of range or out of arc and cloak again.... this can go until you can get behind the ship with the other(s) you got...

The key is movement movement movement...

I had also several rounds where no one was shooting since all were out of arc of everything...

Who cares...

In several games ppl never had a shot against either of the 2 main threats since i was out of arc.

I didn't care if they kill my academy's... they are just blockers and action denial if i they get a chance...

Consider, at minimum necessary upgrades 65 points of yours total to 7 HP, and 7 attack. I can, for 63 points of Rookie X-Wings, get 9 attack and 15 HP. Granted, Echo eats them alive and all that Jazz, but the second you run into Han with gunner you're doomed, and Han with Gunner is not unheard of.

You're cramming a lot of your points into two very fragile ships.

It can work. But it has some very severe hard counters.

(Of note, it might be best to try Echo with Decoy to steal Fel's PS9. It's a little better than being stuck with PS8 against some lists.)

The question is what can you do with 34-35 points. If you had one more point you could manage some fun shenanigans with 3 Tie Fighters.

I think

Echo with Decoy and Advanced Cloak

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

3 Academies could be the best Squint Phantom list.

I still don't know why some people prefer Turr with vet. I mean unless your opponent is an idiot he's not going to leave a single gap in his arcs that a single barrel roll or boost is going to get you out of.

Consider, at minimum necessary upgrades 65 points of yours total to 7 HP, and 7 attack. I can, for 63 points of Rookie X-Wings, get 9 attack and 15 HP. Granted, Echo eats them alive and all that Jazz, but the second you run into Han with gunner you're doomed, and Han with Gunner is not unheard of.

You're cramming a lot of your points into two very fragile ships.

It can work. But it has some very severe hard counters.

(Of note, it might be best to try Echo with Decoy to steal Fel's PS9. It's a little better than being stuck with PS8 against some lists.)

The question is what can you do with 34-35 points. If you had one more point you could manage some fun shenanigans with 3 Tie Fighters.

I think

Echo with Decoy and Advanced Cloak

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

3 Academies could be the best Squint Phantom list.

I still don't know why some people prefer Turr with vet. I mean unless your opponent is an idiot he's not going to leave a single gap in his arcs that a single barrel roll or boost is going to get you out of.

Consider, at minimum necessary upgrades 65 points of yours total to 7 HP, and 7 attack. I can, for 63 points of Rookie X-Wings, get 9 attack and 15 HP. Granted, Echo eats them alive and all that Jazz, but the second you run into Han with gunner you're doomed, and Han with Gunner is not unheard of.

You're cramming a lot of your points into two very fragile ships.

It can work. But it has some very severe hard counters.

(Of note, it might be best to try Echo with Decoy to steal Fel's PS9. It's a little better than being stuck with PS8 against some lists.)

The question is what can you do with 34-35 points. If you had one more point you could manage some fun shenanigans with 3 Tie Fighters.

I think

Echo with Decoy and Advanced Cloak

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

3 Academies could be the best Squint Phantom list.

I still don't know why some people prefer Turr with vet. I mean unless your opponent is an idiot he's not going to leave a single gap in his arcs that a single barrel roll or boost is going to get you out of.

I prefer Turr but not with Vi. I prefer PTL as its nice to be able to Charge someone headfirst into R1, then Barrel Roll and Boost Past them providing you hit.

If you want to run Soontir and Echo with two Ties I would go this route:

Soontir Fel + Push the Limit (30)

"Echo" + Veteran Instincts + Advanced Cloaking Device (35)

Black Squadron Pilot + Predator (17)

Black Squadron Pilot + Predator (17)

A friend of mine has been running:

Soontir w/ PtL, stealth device

Whisper w/ VI, ACD

Delta squadron defender

The defender sets up near the center of the board and tries to draw ships his way. Soontir and the phantom try to hurry around the flank. It usually works pretty well but when it fails, it tends to fail hard.

I'm no professional, but running both is counter intuitive IMO.

A flanker works as such a great unit when the rest of the squad is taking the blunt of an attack. Flankers work best paired with a BH, shuttle or mini swarm. Anything that is more of a perceived threat.

Can be it work? Sure. But its also a reason we haven't seen many triple interceptor builds actually win regionals or other large tourneys.

The redundancy is too high for it to be optimum in any way.

Having said that, I would pair backstabber with another flanker simply because he is cheap and a hell of a value for his cost. Soontir or a 2nd Phantom is too expensive just to fill a redundant role.

My current list Interceptor + Phantom combo is:

Echo + VI + ACD

Jax + PTL

Omicron Shuttle + Vader

Academy Pilot

Itll likely change to include Whisper or Soontir for that PS9, but its been fun thus far.

I think Soontir with a Phantom is a nice combo but feels flimsy to me. I have an interceptor paired with a phantom, but it's much more similar to Phildo's list, in that it has four ships. I actually have three ship list that pairs Brath with Fel, which I feel like gives the list more staying power. However, I'm not sure it will be competitive.

Ive been planning....

Turr + PTL, Stealth Device

Echo + Vi, ACD, Rebel Captive

OGP + Ion, Tactician, Saboteur, APL

(99pts)

Heavy on the Upgrades yes but once the Bus finds its range it should cause some hassle for anyone trying to hunt down the two flankers and once it fully closes the Ion will help slow some targets and the Saboteur/APL combo will mean i can hopefully pick off some extra damage from the Dogpile.

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

I still don't know why some people prefer Turr with vet. I mean unless your opponent is an idiot he's not going to leave a single gap in his arcs that a single barrel roll or boost is going to get you out of.

Because then Turr moves last. He zips into range 1, fires 4 dice, and boost banks over the enemy, or barrel rolls past. It's a different playstyle, but it still can work.

Soontir with Push the Limit can just take evade AND focus if you want to do that. He's also far more mobile when it comes to setting up shots. The guy can move 3 times each turn.

Try Echo with Decoy to steal Fel's PS9.

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

I don't think we're even playing the same game.

Turr with Vet Instincts and hull(Personally Turr is a far better ship than Soontir)

I still don't know why some people prefer Turr with vet. I mean unless your opponent is an idiot he's not going to leave a single gap in his arcs that a single barrel roll or boost is going to get you out of.

Because then Turr moves last. He zips into range 1, fires 4 dice, and boost banks over the enemy, or barrel rolls past. It's a different playstyle, but it still can work.

Soontir with Push the Limit can just take evade AND focus if you want to do that. He's also far more mobile when it comes to setting up shots. The guy can move 3 times each turn.

Absolutely, but the reason to take Turr with VI is not because he's better than Fel at anything, it's because you a) already have Fel in your list, or b) are looking to get the essence of an high PS interceptor pilot with PTL while saving some points (for whatever reason). I say this but would also point out that I would typically find a way to get Jax or Fel in my lists and sacrifice a couple points elsewhere, which means he rarely makes my lists; however, I think there's certainly a case for B..

I wouldn't fly Jax or Fel without PTL and that's 29 or 30 points, respectively. Turr with VI gives you PS 9 while still allowing two actions (three moves) per turn at 27 points. IMO, it is a very effective and mobile PS 9 and might take some thought in a meta where you might face phantoms regularly. Otherwise, your option for a cheaper (and still effective) PS 9 is probably Mithel at 18 points (since Howl doesn't gain a lot of benefit from PS 10, imo).

I far prefer Turr Phennir + PTL to Soontir Fel + PTL
Both get 3 "actions" per turn, but one of them gets two actions in Combat, as opposed to just in the main phase.

Yes, Fel can get 2 focuses in a turn if he really wants them, but I'd prefer using a boost/roll combo to get fully out of foes arcs while still getting to use my focus offensively.

I far prefer Turr Phennir + PTL to Soontir Fel + PTL

Both get 3 "actions" per turn, but one of them gets two actions in Combat, as opposed to just in the main phase.

Yes, Fel can get 2 focuses in a turn if he really wants them, but I'd prefer using a boost/roll combo to get fully out of foes arcs while still getting to use my focus offensively.

Yeah but the main disadvantage of using turr with PTL is you are not as high in pilot skill so you may not be able to arc dodge before getting shot all the time.

Plus Soontir's name sounds cooler

I far prefer Turr Phennir + PTL to Soontir Fel + PTL

Both get 3 "actions" per turn, but one of them gets two actions in Combat, as opposed to just in the main phase.

Yes, Fel can get 2 focuses in a turn if he really wants them, but I'd prefer using a boost/roll combo to get fully out of foes arcs while still getting to use my focus offensively.

Yeah but the main disadvantage of using turr with PTL is you are not as high in pilot skill so you may not be able to arc dodge before getting shot all the time.

Plus Soontir's name sounds cooler

Oh no, you're vulnerable to the level 8 and 9 pilots, whatever shall you do

I far prefer Turr Phennir + PTL to Soontir Fel + PTL

Both get 3 "actions" per turn, but one of them gets two actions in Combat, as opposed to just in the main phase.

Yes, Fel can get 2 focuses in a turn if he really wants them, but I'd prefer using a boost/roll combo to get fully out of foes arcs while still getting to use my focus offensively.

Yeah but the main disadvantage of using turr with PTL is you are not as high in pilot skill so you may not be able to arc dodge before getting shot all the time.

Plus Soontir's name sounds cooler

Oh no, you're vulnerable to the level 8 and 9 pilots, whatever shall you do

And if you face a Han Shoot First Soontir's as a better defense than Turr by having 2 Focus and an Evade.

I far prefer Turr Phennir + PTL to Soontir Fel + PTL

Both get 3 "actions" per turn, but one of them gets two actions in Combat, as opposed to just in the main phase.

Yes, Fel can get 2 focuses in a turn if he really wants them, but I'd prefer using a boost/roll combo to get fully out of foes arcs while still getting to use my focus offensively.

Yeah but the main disadvantage of using turr with PTL is you are not as high in pilot skill so you may not be able to arc dodge before getting shot all the time.

Plus Soontir's name sounds cooler

Oh no, you're vulnerable to the level 8 and 9 pilots, whatever shall you do

And if you face a Han Shoot First Soontir's as a better defense than Turr by having 2 Focus and an Evade.

A fair point. However, a single bad match-up isn't going to dissuade me of my opinion: I'll just fly him with a swarm, which eats HSF