Advanced cloaking device is over costed.

It never ever gets any use, every time my sigma squadron pilots are destroyed by hlc fire before they can shoot and cloak.

You're right in that it serves no purpose on a Sigma. It really doesn't have a place on either of the generic Phantoms. It belongs on Whisper or Echo along with Veteran Instincts. Which, I agree, makes it prohibitively expensive. The balancing factor for Phantoms is that they perform best with a number of pricey upgrades.

It's certainly ideal on Whisper or Echo with VI, but it absolutely has a place on generics. A free action that gives you two extra evade dice and super mobility (as Wonder Waagh hinted at) is well worth it and useful on any of the phantom pilots.

Whisper should almost never evade. An evade is statistically worse than a focus on 4 defense dice. Whisper doesn't get the focus if she misses, and two focuses on defense is better than a Focus and an evade.

Of course assuming you'll be attacked more than once.

At which point the evade is largely meaningless as well. Whisper is rarely going to be the first person attacking, making knowing that very very difficult.

At least seeing the way the meta is going.

Well what I meant was the odds of being hit with 4 defense dice+Focus+Evade are next to nill. If only one ship can see me I'd rather have Focus/Evade. If two or more can see me I'd agree with you: I want as many focus as I can get.

I wrote the same thing of this topic's title almost 3 months ago.

the tie-phantom is a good ship: it is difficult to use it properly, very difficult with Echo, but after some experience, it is a beast, thanks to this upgrade...

I wrote that it would have cost at least from 5 to 7 points.

It is an auto-include upgrade, yes, because there is no reason to use a tie-phantom without it.

And there is no reason to use anyone else but whisper and/or echo.

General pilot are almost useless, because their PS is too low.

In your first turn you are going to cloak and later only ps 10 pilots will be able to shoot at you while decloaked (but with a "2" barrel roll or boost it is not so easy!!!) .

Flying it defensively (choosing evade as normal action), and you won't be hitted.

Use Whisper with fire-control system and you are going to perform 4 actions every turn, defending with 4 dices and 1 evade token.

Just my opinion, as always!

Whisper should almost never evade. An evade is statistically worse than a focus on 4 defense dice. Whisper doesn't get the focus if she misses, and two focuses on defense is better than a Focus and an evade.

Yes, I forgot to speak about luck and misfortune...

Attacking with 4 (!!!!!) dices (or 5 !!!) and do not cause a single hit, is it very unlikely to me... but it can still happen !!

Important: rolling a [hit] result on your dice is not the same thing as hitting with an attack. Whisper has to hit with an attack--that is, there has to be at least one [hit] or [crit] result remaining after dice are canceled by the defender's dice results--in order to get her focus.

Advanced cloaking device is over costed.

It never ever gets any use, every time my sigma squadron pilots are destroyed by hlc fire before they can shoot and cloak.

You're right in that it serves no purpose on a Sigma. It really doesn't have a place on either of the generic Phantoms. It belongs on Whisper or Echo along with Veteran Instincts. Which, I agree, makes it prohibitively expensive. The balancing factor for Phantoms is that they perform best with a number of pricey upgrades.

Mr. Cat was being flippant in order to make the point that ACD relies heavily on PS bids for success, which means its practical cost is much higher than the nominal 4 points.

I'm not sure if this was said, but I think an ACD phantom would bew lot more balanced if ACD gave you a stress. because for 4 points you get a version of PTL that cases no stress and happens during the combat phase.

but it just takes time, soon phantoms will be as predictable as ASA B-wings.

I'm not sure if this was said, but I think an ACD phantom would bew lot more balanced if ACD gave you a stress. because for 4 points you get a version of PTL that cases no stress and happens during the combat phase.

but it just takes time, soon phantoms will be as predictable as ASA B-wings.

Advanced Cloak is the only way to make the cloaking mechanic worthwhile. SPG can, to an extent, but even it with Adanced Sensors creates a relatively fragile ship for 30 minimum points. The Phantom is balanced by the number of ships that can easily and routinely destroy it before it earns its points.

Isn't it obvious? FFG was tired of no-named pilots. Now they've done something to make PS MUCH more valuable. Predator is further proof of the shift in FFG's design. I for one welcome the change.

Not only do I welcome it, I feel like I got here months ago and have been waiting for them to catch up. I keep seeing things like "I'm having trouble fitting the Defender into a list" and "X ship just costs too much", when I've been making 3 ship builds since… I dunno, last November? Imperial Aces made that even more fun. I haven't run a TIE swarm since about that long ago too.

This sounds familiar!!

My son and I played our first XWing game during Xmas vacation then bought one of everything shortly after. I started out with named pilots, high PS and typically three ships every build. Once I started playing in local tournaments and league, I found I was able to win more often than not. I also couldn't figure out why everybody else is using low PS, mediocre builds. The post above explains it! They just haven't figured it out! LOL!

Yeah, I know. I made that build. Though I do believe I forgot that a Phantom can't normally target lock. I've only flown it twice. And really, I never had to take one thanks to FCS. Funny how that works.

What do you mean when you say "made" ? I am finding it confusing.

About freeing up your regular action, you can even barrel roll to get out of arcs, and use that shooting round more as a "i am marking you so next turn you are dead" kind of maneuver. That's mostly how i prepare to engage clusters of enemy ships the turn before i get in with my mini swarm at the same time. Works like a charm.

When I say I made it, I'm talking about the fact that so far as I know, I'm the only one who proposed that build. specifically:

Whisper + VI + FCS + Weapons Engineer + ACD

Vessery + Ion Cannon + Outmaneuver

BST + Predator

So again. Yes. I know it's very efficient because i made it. It was my final table build for Imdaar Alpha. So that "mark you for dead next turn" becomes "I'm going to mark you for dead this turn because Vessery gets to shoot after me, oh and I also have options as backup in case you somehow get away from me."

If we are going to start taking credit for things, then I was the first to suggest on this forum the Vessery and Whisper + FCS + ACD + WE core that this build is based off of. Do I get any royalties for this?

I don't know why you took for granted i was talking about "your build" when i am talking about FCS + ACD action economy on a Whisper. I don't even know who you are neither i had seen the 100 point list until now. By the way i like the list, i had been thinking also about Vessery + Whisper, but didn't thought about the Weapons Engineer myself, nice. I would ask you how being with basically 2 ships and a filler you make it work against stuff that can really put a dent into whisper, but that would be totally offtopic.

Well, I make it work because that BST shouldn't be ignored (but frequently is, in the face of those other two), and for having what some have called "an absurdly good eye" for maneuvers. Also, I excel at using maneuverable flankers in low ship number lists because I got sick of TIE swarms about a month after learning how to play, opting instead for fun-to-fly flankers like high PS interceptors or Vader. I also use deployment and asteroid placement to my advantage since I'm usually facing rebels, forcing them to either fly all the way around clusters of asteroids or drawing my opponent through them, where my eyeballing and maneuverability give me the advantage.

Fun fact, this loadout for Whisper maintains almost 100% of his action economy even with a k-turn.

you really have no idea how you sound do you?

Well judging by the number of people either agreeing with me or 'like'ing my posts, I would imagine "cogent" might be a good descriptor.

I think he was thinking more along the lines of "conceited". I'm certain it wasn't your intention to come across that way and I've no doubt that such a descriptor would be inaccurate but I can see how that one post could be taken as such. Use of phrases such as "I excel" and "absurdly good eye" in reference to yourself tends to rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

I agree. If you don't put it on a high PS ship. It's a waste. It's not under costed at all.

What has happened is that the phantom has changed the meta and now low PS is really bad. Just take decoy on a high pilot skill rebel and pass it around. Also veteran instincts has become good again.

I think he was thinking more along the lines of "conceited". I'm certain it wasn't your intention to come across that way and I've no doubt that such a descriptor would be inaccurate but I can see how that one post could be taken as such. Use of phrases such as "I excel" and "absurdly good eye" in reference to yourself tends to rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

Oh, I'm aware. But hey, someone asked me a question and that was the way to answer it. Really, I'm a graphic designer, screen printer and artist. Close attention to detail and the ability to very finely eyeball measurements is kind of a requirement, and it's a natural fit for X-wing.

If we are going to start taking credit for things, then I was the first to suggest on this forum the Vessery and Whisper + FCS + ACD + WE core that this build is based off of. Do I get any royalties for this?

Like I said, "as far as I know". I never saw your post, I tend to stay away from the "List building" threads because of how everyone just suggests the same generic changes. Not sure about royalties though mate. You can have 10% of my defeated foe's sighs if you'd like?

ACD is undercosted? Why yes it is sir, as is the broken game ruining Phantom!

The Phantom

Chapter One

"It's broken!"

The End.

True story...

I think he was thinking more along the lines of "conceited". I'm certain it wasn't your intention to come across that way and I've no doubt that such a descriptor would be inaccurate but I can see how that one post could be taken as such. Use of phrases such as "I excel" and "absurdly good eye" in reference to yourself tends to rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

Oh, I'm aware. But hey, someone asked me a question and that was the way to answer it. Really, I'm a graphic designer, screen printer and artist. Close attention to detail and the ability to very finely eyeball measurements is kind of a requirement, and it's a natural fit for X-wing.

ACD is undercosted? Why yes it is sir, as is the broken game ruining Phantom!

The Phantom

Chapter One

"It's broken!"

The End.

True story...

Counterpoint: nuh-uh .

I think he was thinking more along the lines of "conceited". I'm certain it wasn't your intention to come across that way and I've no doubt that such a descriptor would be inaccurate but I can see how that one post could be taken as such. Use of phrases such as "I excel" and "absurdly good eye" in reference to yourself tends to rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

Oh, I'm aware. But hey, someone asked me a question and that was the way to answer it. Really, I'm a graphic designer, screen printer and artist. Close attention to detail and the ability to very finely eyeball measurements is kind of a requirement, and it's a natural fit for X-wing.

If we are going to start taking credit for things, then I was the first to suggest on this forum the Vessery and Whisper + FCS + ACD + WE core that this build is based off of. Do I get any royalties for this?

Like I said, "as far as I know". I never saw your post, I tend to stay away from the "List building" threads because of how everyone just suggests the same generic changes. Not sure about royalties though mate. You can have 10% of my defeated foe's sighs if you'd like?

I think he was thinking more along the lines of "conceited". I'm certain it wasn't your intention to come across that way and I've no doubt that such a descriptor would be inaccurate but I can see how that one post could be taken as such. Use of phrases such as "I excel" and "absurdly good eye" in reference to yourself tends to rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

Oh, I'm aware. But hey, someone asked me a question and that was the way to answer it. Really, I'm a graphic designer, screen printer and artist. Close attention to detail and the ability to very finely eyeball measurements is kind of a requirement, and it's a natural fit for X-wing.

If we are going to start taking credit for things, then I was the first to suggest on this forum the Vessery and Whisper + FCS + ACD + WE core that this build is based off of. Do I get any royalties for this?

Like I said, "as far as I know". I never saw your post, I tend to stay away from the "List building" threads because of how everyone just suggests the same generic changes. Not sure about royalties though mate. You can have 10% of my defeated foe's sighs if you'd like?

Likewise my visual background is probably giving me an edge in this spacial awareness game too.

Its just that what your saying is SO inflated and seemingly unaware that its actually taking away from any decent points you may have.

I think he was thinking more along the lines of "conceited". I'm certain it wasn't your intention to come across that way and I've no doubt that such a descriptor would be inaccurate but I can see how that one post could be taken as such. Use of phrases such as "I excel" and "absurdly good eye" in reference to yourself tends to rub a lot of people up the wrong way.

Oh, I'm aware. But hey, someone asked me a question and that was the way to answer it. Really, I'm a graphic designer, screen printer and artist. Close attention to detail and the ability to very finely eyeball measurements is kind of a requirement, and it's a natural fit for X-wing.

If we are going to start taking credit for things, then I was the first to suggest on this forum the Vessery and Whisper + FCS + ACD + WE core that this build is based off of. Do I get any royalties for this?

Like I said, "as far as I know". I never saw your post, I tend to stay away from the "List building" threads because of how everyone just suggests the same generic changes. Not sure about royalties though mate. You can have 10% of my defeated foe's sighs if you'd like?

Sounds like a plan lol. Yeah that was from when the first "Good Defender List" thread came out, before we even knew too much about the whole cloaking thing. No hard feelings or anything intended. I know what you mean about good visual acuity though, of you are flying anything elite Imperial it is vital (I happen to have very good spatial awareness myself, which I use to great advantage especially with the good Lt. Lorrir).

okay, time for some maths to put things into perspective.

let's assume you've just dropped cloak and attacked. What are the different things you could be doing that might affect your defence rolls:

Option 1: Advanced cloak and save the focus for defence. Average attack roll is 2, average defence roll is 2.5, 3.125 at range 3.

Option 2: Advanced cloak but with Target lock or focus used on the attack. Average attack is 3, average defence is 1.5, 1.875 at r3

Option 3: SPA and a focus saved for defence. Average attack roll is 2, average defence roll is 2.25, 2.875 at r3 (using the evade)

Option 4: SPA with a target lock or focus spent on the attack. Average attack roll is 3, average defence roll is 1.75, 2.125 at r3 (using the evade).

The evade token or focus token can only be used once, so if you're expecting lots of low ps attacks the advanced cloak is definitely better, but if you think you can minimise the attacks coming in to one the stygium particle accelerator is only slightly worse if you want to go all-out defence, but actually better if you want to fly aggressively.

Where the SPA particularly excels is if you're expecting the shot to come in before you can attack yourself.

I don't own veteran instincts, and I love to fly agressively, so I'm definately going to use SPA over ACD. At 2 points cheaper it's a steal.

Cheerio,

Ben

okay, time for some maths to put things into perspective.

let's assume you've just dropped cloak and attacked. What are the different things you could be doing that might affect your defence rolls:

Option 1: Advanced cloak and save the focus for defence. Average attack roll is 2, average defence roll is 2.5, 3.125 at range 3.

Option 2: Advanced cloak but with Target lock or focus used on the attack. Average attack is 3, average defence is 1.5, 1.875 at r3

Option 3: SPA and a focus saved for defence. Average attack roll is 2, average defence roll is 2.25, 2.875 at r3 (using the evade)

Option 4: SPA with a target lock or focus spent on the attack. Average attack roll is 3, average defence roll is 1.75, 2.125 at r3 (using the evade).

The evade token or focus token can only be used once, so if you're expecting lots of low ps attacks the advanced cloak is definitely better, but if you think you can minimise the attacks coming in to one the stygium particle accelerator is only slightly worse if you want to go all-out defence, but actually better if you want to fly aggressively.

Where the SPA particularly excels is if you're expecting the shot to come in before you can attack yourself.

I don't own veteran instincts, and I love to fly agressively, so I'm definately going to use SPA over ACD. At 2 points cheaper it's a steal.

Cheerio,

Ben

Beyond that Phantoms need to be able to withstand multiple attacks. They aren't unhittable, and late game are very flankable.

I find it fascinating that every major tournament with Phantoms has been won by a Falcon.

It is kind of a chicken soup for the soul reading all the angst over the phantom. Oh the panic of a new release. The phantom is a fine ship, so long as your not being shot at. It is about as durable as a squint. Is the decloak action strong ? Yes it is, is 4 base attack good ? **** right it is, is it too much ? Nah.

People will learn how to fly against them, and they will end up being just good. Out of the 3 games I've played one, they've done work, but never been the closer ship, as one mistake, and they are screwed, or one good set up by your opponent and they are done. Oddly enough, all of those games I needed a squint, or a Defender to seal the deal. Another fact is, only the named phantoms are really all that amazing, the un named ones are kind of bleh. Which is something I noticed with the defenders as well and such is a bit disappointing to be honest.

So don't wallow in fear and angst, time heals all wounds, even the new way a strong ship flys.

You take evade with the phantom to moderate stuff like Gunner/Luke. Taking an evade is not about planning to evade ALL damage. Its to determine HOW much damage you take.

You take evade with the phantom to moderate stuff like Gunner/Luke. Taking an evade is not about planning to evade ALL damage. Its to determine HOW much damage you take.

okay, time for some maths to put things into perspective.

let's assume you've just dropped cloak and attacked. What are the different things you could be doing that might affect your defence rolls:

Option 1: Advanced cloak and save the focus for defence. Average attack roll is 2, average defence roll is 2.5, 3.125 at range 3.

Option 2: Advanced cloak but with Target lock or focus used on the attack. Average attack is 3, average defence is 1.5, 1.875 at r3

Option 3: SPA and a focus saved for defence. Average attack roll is 2, average defence roll is 2.25, 2.875 at r3 (using the evade)

Option 4: SPA with a target lock or focus spent on the attack. Average attack roll is 3, average defence roll is 1.75, 2.125 at r3 (using the evade).

The evade token or focus token can only be used once, so if you're expecting lots of low ps attacks the advanced cloak is definitely better, but if you think you can minimise the attacks coming in to one the stygium particle accelerator is only slightly worse if you want to go all-out defence, but actually better if you want to fly aggressively.

Where the SPA particularly excels is if you're expecting the shot to come in before you can attack yourself.

I don't own veteran instincts, and I love to fly agressively, so I'm definately going to use SPA over ACD. At 2 points cheaper it's a steal.

Cheerio,

Ben

You're looking at the wrong part of the picture.

With SPA--

Round 1: Cloak, free evade, and maneuver.

Round 2: Decloak, free evade, focus, and attack.

Round 3: Cloak, free evade, and maneuver.

Round 4: Decloak, free evade, focus, and attack.

With ACD--

Round 1: Cloak and maneuver.

Round 2: Decloak, focus, attack, and free cloak.

Round 3: Decloak, focus, attack, and free cloak.

Round 4: Decloak, focus, attack, and free cloak.

Basically the ACD doubles the Phantom's damage output by allowing it to enjoy the benefits of cloaking without spending every other round unable to attack. SPA is most useful when you're planning on taking it slow, playing cagey and defensive with a low-PS Phantom--it's not that it doesn't have a niche, but at just 2 points more ACD is a steal.

Likewise my visual background is probably giving me an edge in this spacial awareness game too.

Its just that what you're saying is SO inflated and seemingly unaware that it's actually taking away from any decent points you may have.

Well anyone who has a problem with it can choose to ignore me. I've seen people call members like Vorpal Sword rude for being blunt, but it doesn't make him any less right. In this world you have to toot your own horn a little, because there will always be legions of people ready to try to pull you down and make you think less of yourself. I choose not to help them along.