I think the issue you have with FU when you try and import it into the RPG is essentially the same problem you have when you hyper-optimize any character. When combat comes around the GM will be hard-pressed to throw something at you you'd find challenging. When a non-combat encounter shows up though, you're just another nub throwing dice...until you get frustrated and turn it into a combat encounter.

Not saying you couldn't do a fun FU adventure or even a short campaign if you planned it well from the start and ironed out the kinks early. Just that it seems like a concept that would run out of steam after the novelty wore off. Part of the video game is the spectacle, and that's a hard thing to consistently translate into the RPG for more then about three or four sessions.

Also unless FU3 is about to come out an nobody told me, I see no immediate motivation for FFG to support it, much less make it part of a core rule book.

Pfft. Superhero roleplaying has a long and storied history.

Not to mention all the games where you play vampires/werewolves/angels/exalted etc.

Perfectly doable, if you wanted to.

Which is fine when all the archetypes are heroes of the same caliber. A majority of people want to play different archetypes of similar ability. I know very few people that want to play in an all uber-Jedi game, or play Uber-Jedi and the Entourage. Hence the reason they are being balanced with the other careers.

Which is fine when all the archetypes are heroes of the same caliber. A majority of people want to play different archetypes of similar ability. I know very few people that want to play in an all uber-Jedi game, or play Uber-Jedi and the Entourage. Hence the reason they are being balanced with the other careers.

There's currently no limit on Force Rating. In a high XP game, someone with Force Rating 6+ is going to be almost impossible to match since many of his powers all grow every time the Force Rating goes up. Very little of the other Talents do the same.

As an example, consider Foresee. The first control upgrade means that the character adds Force dice to initiative. These dice are not committed, and can be used for other abilities too. The more such things that can be used together, the more increasing Force Rating becomes HUGE. If it's not limited, high-end non-Force characters may not be competitive. Whether that's a feature or bug depends on your point of view.

Which is fine when all the archetypes are heroes of the same caliber. A majority of people want to play different archetypes of similar ability. I know very few people that want to play in an all uber-Jedi game, or play Uber-Jedi and the Entourage. Hence the reason they are being balanced with the other careers.

There's currently no limit on Force Rating. In a high XP game, someone with Force Rating 6+ is going to be almost impossible to match since many of his powers all grow every time the Force Rating goes up. Very little of the other Talents do the same.

As an example, consider Foresee. The first control upgrade means that the character adds Force dice to initiative. These dice are not committed, and can be used for other abilities too. The more such things that can be used together, the more increasing Force Rating becomes HUGE. If it's not limited, high-end non-Force characters may not be competitive. Whether that's a feature or bug depends on your point of view.

Well, barring Force and Destiny, the hard cap on Force Rating right now is a 3.

I suspect that F&D is going to introduce a "hard cap" much as there is for Characteristics. But as has been pointed out repeatedly by numerous posters, a Force user PC that's racked up enough XP to get to Force Rating 6 (or higher) has devoted a ton of XP to that, XP that the other PCs in the group have been using to advance in their own specializations and increase their skills. But by the same token, a Force user does have a great deal more versatility in regards to their powers, particularly with Move and Foresee given the utility of those powers, particularly Foresee in regards to viewing future events.

Regarding Foresee and its initiative enhancements, given that a team-minded PC can purchase upgrades to let one or more of their allies enjoy the benefits of a crap-ton of extra successes on initiative checks (and even a boost to defenses for that opening round or a free maneuver), it will probably work out. Also keep in mind that even without those upgrades, those extra successes just mean that it ensures there will be at least one PC going first every round, and not necessarily the Force user who generated all those successes given how this game handles initiative slots.

As for Starkiller and the Force Unleashed games, that's a prime example of my belief that what's good for a video game isn't going to be good for other mediums, particularly RPGs. The KOTOR games and the equipment crafting system is another prime example of that. Oddly enough, when WotC came up with stats for Starkiller in their Force Unleashed Campaign Guide, he was actually built as a rules-legal character that a player could (eventually) mimic in terms of game mechanics. And he wasn't anywhere near as overwhelming as his video game incarnation, but still powerful due to how high a level he was. Though given how the Force worked in Saga Edition, it got a lot less potent once the PCs got into the teens level-wise given how skill and defense bonuses scaled in comparison to the other, so a PC that was really good using a blaster (be it pistol or rifle) could be quite competitive on the combat front simply from the sheer amount of damage being unleashed on the target.

But there's also Kyle Katarn, who if you go by his video game appearances is just as bad, if not worse, since he's not only a super-skilled specforces commando but also a Jedi Master capable of using the light and dark side of the Force with no consequence. In Starkiller's case, he was pretty much a darksider right up to the "canonical" light side ending, so him using Force lightning and such wasn't entirely out of character, where Katarn is presented as a good guy and gets away with using some pretty dark powers simply for the sake of "making an entertaining video game."

As of now we have no idea how easy it is to get more Force dice. If things remain similar to what we've seen, it would be exorbitantly expensive just to have 6 Force dice after making your way through multiple spec trees. That's not even including investing in the current and upcoming powers to be able to take advantage of all those Force dice or the various talents either. Another non-Force using character could just as easily invested the same XP in a multitude of talents, skills and specs (including multiple Dedication talents), making themselves much more proficient and comparable in ability. Their not going to be running around throwing Star Destroyers or mentally telling people to pee their pants, but they will still be very good. I would expect in a high XP game all characters would be pretty proficient.

Or, because I was too slow, what DM said.

Which is fine when all the archetypes are heroes of the same caliber. A majority of people want to play different archetypes of similar ability. I know very few people that want to play in an all uber-Jedi game, or play Uber-Jedi and the Entourage. Hence the reason they are being balanced with the other careers.

Very true.

And I speak from experience, having been a guy that wound up playing what became an "Uber-Jedi" in an Entourage game due to some house-rules the GM made use of. A few players mentioned to me and the GM that the main reason they didn't bail on the campaign was because I was actually playing someone with the mindset of a Jedi; namely that I'd only step up if a situation was in my PC's direct area of expertise (jokingly noted by others as Sith and extreme property damage) but otherwise let the PCs do their thing rather than trying to use the Force to jam a 2 foot square peg into a 1 inch round hole.

That being said, I do suspect that F&D PCs are going to have a bit of a "leg up" in comparison to PCs from other games, but it's not going to be a huge disparity in terms of power, especially not right away. Much as I love Saga Edition, one if it's big failings was that due to how the skill system worked against defenses, particularly at early levels, making so that a low- level Jedi with Skill Focus in Use the Force was absurdly powerful (though limited to some extent by not having a lot of powers to work with). I think the main disparity, for lack of a better word, will be seen between Force users, as the EotE and AoR versions had to spend XP to buy a specialization to become Force users, where the F&D versions will get that by default as part of character creation.

The thing about Saga is getting all of the Jedi defenses takes a lot of talents so doing so early is very difficult. I remember one time my, than level 4, Jedi Fighter Pilot managing to deflect 3 shots in one round (rolled 15 18 and 20) than got KOed by a grenade because he had nothing that could stop it.

My point being that Characteristics cap, Skills cap, but Force Rating (and pretty much the vast majority of ranked Talents) do not cap. I think the game would benefit from having hard caps on all ranked Talents.

What I think they are going to do (largely because the said they were going to do it on the order 66 podcast) is to, by design intent, have F&D characters be marginally more potent in direct combat than EotE or AoR characters, balanced by them not having skills in other areas and a need to keep a low profile. This approach will leave many unsatisfied as the non Jedi will still be second class citizens in the area of butt kicking, while the people playing Jedi won't get to live out their Darth Maul/Mace Windu/Starkiller fantasies.

What I think they are going to do (largely because the said they were going to do it on the order 66 podcast) is to, by design intent, have F&D characters be marginally more potent in direct combat than EotE or AoR characters, balanced by them not having skills in other areas and a need to keep a low profile. This approach will leave many unsatisfied as the non Jedi will still be second class citizens in the area of butt kicking, while the people playing Jedi won't get to live out their Darth Maul/Mace Windu/Starkiller fantasies.

I don't think that starting characters of any type are going to fulfill most players' fantasies. When a character has a few hundred XP beyond start, then it's time to take a look and see if they are a better fit for what we want to be playing. If your group doesn't want to wait, it's not a problem to tell everybody to add a certain amount of XP following character creation. I've done it (with 300 XP) and it works out better (IMO) than the default starting point.

What I think they are going to do (largely because the said they were going to do it on the order 66 podcast) is to, by design intent, have F&D characters be marginally more potent in direct combat than EotE or AoR characters, balanced by them not having skills in other areas and a need to keep a low profile. This approach will leave many unsatisfied as the non Jedi will still be second class citizens in the area of butt kicking, while the people playing Jedi won't get to live out their Darth Maul/Mace Windu/Starkiller fantasies.

Which O66 is that in? I'm actually curious to hear that.

Also isn't going in expecting to play someone with a power level like Mace Windu or Starkiller in a standard campaign a little obviously unlikely? The force power, talent and skill costs already presented seem to suggest that Mace would be a multi classed character with upwords of 500 xp, and Starkiller's looking at FR in the 5 or 6 neighborhood at a minimum, which also, at least currently, suggest hundreds of xp. Or do you think FR and powers will be cheaper to increase? Or are you just hoping your gm will run the campaign as an advanced one that let's you start with 500 bonus xp?

Also isn't going in expecting to play someone with a power level like Mace Windu or Starkiller in a standard campaign a little obviously unlikely?

The other side of that is that if most of the media displays a power level that is consistently above the range of a standard campaign, then perhaps the frame of reference for what constitutes a 'standard campaign' needs to be better defined. I would dare say that the first 300 XP or so only help define your character in their role rather than making them 'totally badass' and that truly 'high-powered' characters are easily 1,000 XP+. With that in mind, I'm not sure that I would consider starting with 500 XP an advanced game so much as I would consider starting without added XP to be a really low-powered game.

i agree with HappyDaze in that at least the first couple hundred XP that a character earns is generally "fleshing out" a character, much like first few levels in D&D is your adventurer becoming truly proficient in the abilities of their chosen class. And with the various Star Wars media portraying Jedi that are at Knight-level or above, the perception of what it takes to be a capable Jedi is skewed to an unrealistic perspective where a starting character is concerned. Even in the films, young Obi-Wan is the closest we get to a "Jed in training" and he's promoted to Jedi Knight at the end of Episode 1, which in the d20 system puts him around 6th or 7th level for most of that film, which is pretty far from being a starting PC. Even Ahsoka is far too competent and capable for being a low-level character, though how much that has to do with her being a creator's pet is up to the individual viewer.

Then again, even in the original films none of the lead characters would really fall into being "starting level" though Luke comes the closest, likely having some prior experience before his uncle bought those two droids. Han is certainly a lot more capable than a typical Smuggler/Pilot or Smuggler/Scoundrel would be, and Leia's got pretty good combat skills for a Diplomat/Ambassador, to say nothing of Artoo the Wonder Droid (Technician/Mechanic), with Chewie and Threepio feeling more like supporting NPCs than actual characters in ANH.

There's also the point of in what context is the phrase "more powerful" taken? A 2nd level character in a d20-based system is "more powerful" than a 1st level character of the same class and race in the same system, but the difference in power isn't as drastic as it would be between a 1st level PC and a 10th level PC. In the context of Force and Destiny, the phrase "more powerful" could simply mean that Force user PCs start with a Force Rating of 1 by virtue of their starting career or specialization, and that's it. Said F&D character is "more powerful" than an AoR or EotE PC simply because they didn't have to spend 20 XP to become Force-sensitive, but the difference in power isn't so great that it's a stumbling block to introducing a F&D character into an existing EotE or AoR campaign.

Then again, Slypheed/ErikB/AluminumWolf was pretty hurt that his precious spees-mahrines weren't the uber-gods that he wanted them to be in WH40K's Death Watch RPG, so he's likely just projecting that hurt into the fevered delusion that Jedi PCs should be head, shoulders, and torso above any other PC by default. So if Jedi PCs are anything close to being reasonable in comparison to other PCs, he'll be leading the charge of whiners blasting FFG for "getting it wrong"

Donovan, you had a good post going there until the last paragraph threw in a bash on another member.

In the context of Force and Destiny, the phrase "more powerful" could simply mean that Force user PCs start with a Force Rating of 1 by virtue of their starting career or specialization, and that's it. Said F&D character is "more powerful" than an AoR or EotE PC simply because they didn't have to spend 20 XP to become Force-sensitive, but the difference in power isn't so great that it's a stumbling block to introducing a F&D character into an existing EotE or AoR campaign.

What if they get that but have to give up something else in exchange? If it's a fairly equal trade they can start off with Force Rating and yet not have to be more powerful.

Also isn't going in expecting to play someone with a power level like Mace Windu or Starkiller in a standard campaign a little obviously unlikely?

The other side of that is that if most of the media displays a power level that is consistently above the range of a standard campaign, then perhaps the frame of reference for what constitutes a 'standard campaign' needs to be better defined. I would dare say that the first 300 XP or so only help define your character in their role rather than making them 'totally badass' and that truly 'high-powered' characters are easily 1,000 XP+. With that in mind, I'm not sure that I would consider starting with 500 XP an advanced game so much as I would consider starting without added XP to be a really low-powered game.

It might just be me, but it seems if you're trying to replicate the films you don't need that much xp to get there. Well beyond starting level sure, but in the case of like force powers it seems easy to say most characters (even in the prequels) have the base power and an upgrade or two, but spent their xp more on having lots of powers then they did lots of upgrades to specific powers.

edit: dang dono

Also isn't going in expecting to play someone with a power level like Mace Windu or Starkiller in a standard campaign a little obviously unlikely?

The other side of that is that if most of the media displays a power level that is consistently above the range of a standard campaign, then perhaps the frame of reference for what constitutes a 'standard campaign' needs to be better defined. I would dare say that the first 300 XP or so only help define your character in their role rather than making them 'totally badass' and that truly 'high-powered' characters are easily 1,000 XP+. With that in mind, I'm not sure that I would consider starting with 500 XP an advanced game so much as I would consider starting without added XP to be a really low-powered game.

Does the media show that high of a power level though? Or is it more a personal lens issue? FU and the tartofski CW show some epic stuff, but the films themselves don't really show anything all that amazing, except for the Yoda/emperor fight ( which even then isn't THAT huge really). The rest of the time its tossing around Sil 0 objects, knocking over Sil 1 characters and other like effects. And mundane actions aren't much more amazing when you think about it.

It might just be me, but it seems if you're trying to replicate the films you don't need that much xp to get there. Well beyond starting level sure, but in the case of like force powers it seems easy to say most characters (even in the prequels) have the base power and an upgrade or two, but spent their xp more on having lots of powers then they did lots of upgrades to specific powers.

edit: dang dono

I'm going to assume that most of those Jedi, Clone Troopers, etc. had more than a couple of skills at ranks 1 and 2 and that they might have a few applications of Dedication to make them a bit more exceptional than a starting PC. Likewise many of them really should have two or more Specializations to cover the character concept (Han Solo should have Pilot and Scoundrel, etc.). This is why I say that looking at it "from the RPG lens" of looking at in-universe characters as starting characters is actually the problem.

Donovan, you had a good post going there until the last paragraph threw in a bash on another member.

I mean... it's ErikB. Even if you share the same opinions it's hard to get along.

Also isn't going in expecting to play someone with a power level like Mace Windu or Starkiller in a standard campaign a little obviously unlikely?

The other side of that is that if most of the media displays a power level that is consistently above the range of a standard campaign, then perhaps the frame of reference for what constitutes a 'standard campaign' needs to be better defined. I would dare say that the first 300 XP or so only help define your character in their role rather than making them 'totally badass' and that truly 'high-powered' characters are easily 1,000 XP+. With that in mind, I'm not sure that I would consider starting with 500 XP an advanced game so much as I would consider starting without added XP to be a really low-powered game.

Does the media show that high of a power level though? Or is it more a personal lens issue? FU and the tartofski CW show some epic stuff, but the films themselves don't really show anything all that amazing, except for the Yoda/emperor fight ( which even then isn't THAT huge really). The rest of the time its tossing around Sil 0 objects, knocking over Sil 1 characters and other like effects. And mundane actions aren't much more amazing when you think about it.

It might just be me, but it seems if you're trying to replicate the films you don't need that much xp to get there. Well beyond starting level sure, but in the case of like force powers it seems easy to say most characters (even in the prequels) have the base power and an upgrade or two, but spent their xp more on having lots of powers then they did lots of upgrades to specific powers.

edit: dang dono

I'm going to assume that most of those Jedi, Clone Troopers, etc. had more than a couple of skills at ranks 1 and 2 and that they might have a few applications of Dedication to make them a bit more exceptional than a starting PC. Likewise many of them really should have two or more Specializations to cover the character concept (Han Solo should have Pilot and Scoundrel, etc.). This is why I say that looking at it "from the RPG lens" of looking at in-universe characters as starting characters is actually the problem.

For empire/Jedi absolutely, but you've really got me thinking about ANH. I could be wrong, but I've got a feeling you actually can run that as an adventure almost verbatim with starter characters, or darn close to it. Only hangups I can think of offhand are healing (stimpacks off camera maybe) and the falcon and Han an chewies gear isn't standard issue... Other then that... Oh, Obi-wan is an NPC, and the training session light saber stuff is narrative, since Luke doesn't actually use those skills in a real encounter.

See, seems doable.

I know it's for a different system, but this article by The Alexandrian is very relevant to the subject of the relative power levels of player characters, and I like to keep it in mind when I'm creating characters- even for this system.

Edit: To clarify, what I mean is that most beings in this system are going to rarely have stats above the base stats for their species. With a handful of plot-related exceptions, they're minions. The player characters are exceptional (because they're player characters) and are already heroic by comparison, even at starting XP.

Even if we only stick with screen canon, Chewbacca is a veteran of the Clone Wars and likely well above what a starting PC is capable of.

Donovan, you had a good post going there until the last paragraph threw in a bash on another member.

I mean... it's ErikB. Even if you share the same opinions it's hard to get along.

Flinging crap still leaves you with stinky hands no matter the target.

Even if we only stick with screen canon, Chewbacca is a veteran of the Clone Wars and likely well above what a starting PC is capable of.

Ah, but chewie didn't actually exhibit any leg up or proof of advancement in comparison to the other player characters. The clone wars stuff for him is just back story. So I still think a starter ANH is viable.

Even if you want to get into the weeds about it, chewies limited screen time in the clone wars suggests he is an NPC, not a PC. So depending on what order the campaigns are played in he's either a player taking an NPC from the last campaign and running with it, or the GM dropping a named NPC into the game as a nod to the players character in the last campaign.

Hard to score any points when the goalposts keep moving.