They can do those things, these rules just wouldn't be what you'd use to accomplish that. The squad and squadron rules are designed to provide survivability for PCs and key NPCs during large scale combat, and provide some interesting tactical options. They are not designed as a way to max out damage potential, or designed to replace the things that tacticians and other inspirational/buff classes can do. You can narratively be in a squad or squadron without necessarily using the squad or squadron rules.

This helps clarify some things, Keith. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer.

I am still having trouble reconciling these rules:

- "[Minions successfully included in a squad or squadron] are now members of their squad or squadron and, as such, no longer receive a turn in combat and do not roll for initiative." (p. 28)

- Close Formation: "Effect: Add [boost] to any attack made by the squad ..."

- Attack formation: "Effect: Add [boost] to any attack made by the squadron ..."

If the minions have lost initiative slots in combat, what does it mean for the squad or squadron to make an attack? In whose initiative slot is the attack made? How is the dice pool calculated?

Thanks, again!

Right, so the quick answers are, minion groups don't get to make attacks in combat anymore. You are foregoing their damage potential as a minion group, and giving up their individual movement and attack (except in cases provided by the various tactical options). You are giving that up. Yes, this generally means you are giving up some offense in exchange for survivability of the squad(ron) leader.

The squad collectively refers to the new group that includes both the minion group and the squad(ron) leader. Only one attack is getting made per round. So there is a <B> being added to the single attack roll that unit gets. The rules don't clearly state it, but the intent was for the attack to be made by the squad(ron) leader only. However, because it is not clearly stated, you could effectively choose between the two, or roll it as a cooperative check as the GM allows. If in the appropriate formation, a <B> gets added to that check. The fact that only one attack is getting made per turn instead of two serves to balance out the gains in durability.

So yes, as written, the rules don't specify who gets the attack, the leader or the minions, or if its a co-op check. Coop checks can be used to represent the squad protecting that leader so she/he can focus on that one perfect shot, or the leader coordinating his/her squad to maximize their damage potential during an attack. But they don't BOTH get to make attacks (unless you hit a triumph).

However, if you choose this interpretation, I'd suggest be be wary with more experienced heroes, as they are going to get all the offensive punch of a large minion group, and all the defensive advantages of the squad(ron), AND hit a lot of triumphs that allow for additional minion group attacks (by nature of all the yellows they are likely rolling). This can result in them steam-rolling through a Battle of Endor scenario with a lot more ease and speed than you would have cared for.

The original intent was for only the leader to get the attack roll, with ample opportunities for minion group attacks of opportunity through the expenditure of triumphs on both attacks and leadership rolls, IIRC. However, this appears to have changed in playtesting.

Also, because we are getting into interpretation here, I'd like to re-iterate that should Sam Stewart or Andy Fischer come out and say something to the contrary, their world is law on the official use of the mechanics. Of course, being that this is an RPG, GM's, use whatever interpretation is going to provide the most fun at your table.

Again, I'lll come back later with a scenario. The day job dominates on Sundays and Mondays.

However, if you choose this interpretation, I'd suggest be be wary with more experienced heroes, as they are going to get all the offensive punch of a large minion group, and all the defensive advantages of the squad(ron), AND hit a lot of triumphs that allow for additional minion group attacks (by nature of all the yellows they are likely rolling). This can result in them steam-rolling through a Battle of Endor scenario with a lot more ease and speed than you would have cared for.

I would just counter this with NPC ace pilots using the squadron rules too. In both cases, the unnamed minion pilots are going to die in the mix before the real heroes/villains are in any real danger.

However, if you choose this interpretation, I'd suggest be be wary with more experienced heroes, as they are going to get all the offensive punch of a large minion group, and all the defensive advantages of the squad(ron), AND hit a lot of triumphs that allow for additional minion group attacks (by nature of all the yellows they are likely rolling). This can result in them steam-rolling through a Battle of Endor scenario with a lot more ease and speed than you would have cared for.

I would just counter this with NPC ace pilots using the squadron rules too. In both cases, the unnamed minion pilots are going to die in the mix before the real heroes/villains are in any real danger.

I can see that approach working. However, the more I think about Keith's remarks on the original intent of the design, the more I see a risk of "dice spam," where we end up with a lot of big dice pools that have a lot of effects, and then the game gets bogged down in counting up successes, threat, advantage - and then in finding ways to spend all of the stuff that comes out of the pool (threat, triumph, advantage, despair). There are good reasons to keep the number of large dice-pool rolls to a minimum so that the game doesn't bog down.

However, if you choose this interpretation, I'd suggest be be wary with more experienced heroes, as they are going to get all the offensive punch of a large minion group, and all the defensive advantages of the squad(ron), AND hit a lot of triumphs that allow for additional minion group attacks (by nature of all the yellows they are likely rolling). This can result in them steam-rolling through a Battle of Endor scenario with a lot more ease and speed than you would have cared for.

I would just counter this with NPC ace pilots using the squadron rules too. In both cases, the unnamed minion pilots are going to die in the mix before the real heroes/villains are in any real danger.

I can see that approach working. However, the more I think about Keith's remarks on the original intent of the design, the more I see a risk of "dice spam," where we end up with a lot of big dice pools that have a lot of effects, and then the game gets bogged down in counting up successes, threat, advantage - and then in finding ways to spend all of the stuff that comes out of the pool (threat, triumph, advantage, despair). There are good reasons to keep the number of large dice-pool rolls to a minimum so that the game doesn't bog down.

With high-XP groups, the game already becomes "dice spam" just as you've described. Rather than fight it, just encourage your group to be creative and flexible with the results. Hopefully they'll get it down well enough that it doesn't noticeably slow gameplay.

Also, I'd just like to throw this out there, but in the Edge/Age system in general? Sometimes? I'm not gonna lie? I just ignore dice results beyond success vs. failure.

GASP! SHOCK! HORROR!

Sometimes the game just requires a quick, fast binary answer. We don't need to strain ourselves to come up with a fancy narrative result for EVERY ROLL.

I don't skimp on results often, but sometimes there are just simple "book-keeping" checks. Which, in general, these are things to avoid if possible, but sometimes, you feel the need to make them just in case. In published adventures, sometimes the intent is there to provide for opportunity, but as the GM, as you start to vibe with your table of players, you decide that isn't that important a roll, and you just want to move forward. Sometimes I skip checks altogether, sometimes I just have the roll exist to determine success or failure, and ignore the advantage or threat (though not triumphs or despairs).

Sometimes that's just what's easiest.

Anyway, I said I'd give you guys a scripted scenario situation tomorrow (re: later today at a later hour, give me a break, I bartend). I have every intention of doing that. Also, homework for anyone interested, I'm still really really really interested in hearing about the bulk of the GM Kit, which is to say, what do those of you who have read/played the adventure think of it? Feel free to start a separate thread to discuss/debate the adventure, to keep spoilers out of this thread, and basically keep this all more mechanics focused.

on paper that adventure looks awesome. I read it last night. I like the sidebar for GMs to plan the encounters/events especially.

Okay, as promised, since there seem to have been a lot of questions about the squad and squadron rules as they function in practice, I have done up a nice little ground scenario featuring the rules here for those interested to read. To keep things simple, we are going to have a small party of 3 characters, a Squad Leader, a Commando, and a Medic. These are there of the elite members of, let’s say, Katarn’s Commandos. The Rebels have sent the commandos on a dangerous mission to recover a wounded Rebel General caught behind enemy lines on a jungle planet, and bring him back. The rest of the commando unit is rounded out by 8 minions.

The team lands on the jungle planet, their insertion went smoothly. They now have a 20 kilometer hike through jungle to locate the enemy camp, and must avoid patrols.

Squad Leader (SL): I want to put my minions in a Squad, so I can put them in the Skirmish formation, just to guard against ambush.

GM: Okay, make an Easy Leadership check to form a squad.

SL: (rolls his leadership against 1 purple, nets 3 SUC, 2 AD) I succeeded, 2 advantage as well.

GM: Well, we aren’t in combat, so entering a formation as an incidental isn’t helpful, there anything you want to spend it on? You have full everything.

SL: Can I get a Boost to my formation check?

GM: Sure. Which formation? Skirmish?

SL: Yeah, that’s the one that improves vigilance, right?

GM: Right. Okay, not in combat, so just make an Easy check again.

SL: (Rolls his leadership against 1 purple, nets 2 success) Okay, not perfect, but hey, Triumph.

GM: Okay, you are in skirmish.

SL: Cool, so we have an idea where this camp is, right?

GM: A vague idea, yes.

SL: Okay, well lets get our weapons out, treat is as a combat zone, and start walking.

GM: Okay, Let’s have an Average Survival Check from whoever is leading the way

Commando (CM): That’d be me. (Rolls, succeeds, gets the party headed toward the camp). Woot!

GM: Okay, so you guys pick up a very wild, but vague path that the CM is able to follow from the map. Let me get an Average Perception check from everyone. SL, your Boost from your formation can apply here.

SL: Outstanding. (Rolls perception, nets 1 triumph, 3 success, and 1 threat). Okay.

CM: Rolls, succeeds.

MD: Rolls, succeeds.

GM: Okay, you guys all succeed. You hear the telltale whine of an Imperial speederbike, and as you listen closer, the familiar plastic clanking of stormtroopers marching in formation. For that threat, one of your eight minions has wandered forward, out of formation, his head cocked as his listens to the sound become more distinct. That minion isn’t considered a part of the squad anymore.

SL: Awe man.

GM: Them’s the breaks. What do you want to do with the triumph?

SL: Okay, guys, we have the advantage here, I want to spend my triumph to switch to the comm silence formation, as an incidental.

GM: Okay, you don’t even have to roll for that, since you got it off the Triumph, but if you guys want to hide, I’m going to need Stealth checks from you all. Since the path is so well shrouded, its an Average check for CM and MD, but SL needs to give me a Hard check, since he’s silhouette 2. You get that boost though from the formation.

CM: My stealth is so much better. Can I make a coop check with SL that counts for his entire squad too?

GM: Sure. The results will count for you too, though.

CM: Works for me. Let’s use the CMs Stealth skill, and the SL’s Dex and the boost from the formation.

SL: Okay (rolls, nets 2 success, and 2 threat).

GM: Ooo, double threat. Because of the way you guys are hiding off the path, none of your squad is going to be able to lend you much support if you come under attack.

SL: Understood.

GM: Okay, MD, you made your check. So you guys are all hidden off the path. You can clearly see what looks like eight stormtroopers, one of which has a sergeant’s pauldron. There are also two scout troopers on speederbikes that zip past the formation to scout on ahead. They will likely loop back in a few minutes. They don’t see you, but the Sergeant does order a halt at Medium range to you guys, facing your general direction, to rest a moment. SL, you can see some of your minions’ jaws tight with fear as you look at your squad. The moment is super intense. If just one stormtrooper spots you guys….I need everyone to make an Average Discipline check to keep still.

SL: Can I make a Leadership check instead to keep my guys steady?

GM: Sure. Average Leadership check.

CM: Can I roll Cool instead? I’m not exactly afraid of just a squad, I’ve faced longer odds. I’ll just sit here chewing my stimchew.

GM: Sure, why not. Alright, (Watches them all roll and succeed, SL gets a Triumph). Oustanding. But before you spend that triumph, remember, there’s one minion that isn’t a part of the squad. Looks like he doesn’t have any ranks in discipline either….2 Willpower, here goes.

SL: Oh son of a Hutt!

GM: Yeah, so he fails. You can see the lone minion starting to lose his cool as he looks back and forth between the rest of you and the stormtroopers. He’s mumbling, saying things like, kark this, they can see us man, they can see us. We need to run. Run. Run. Run! And then he stands up and takes off running, tearing through the brush. IN reaction to the noise, one of the stormtroopers says “what was that?!” and they all turn toward the group.

SL: Well, looks like we don’t get to dodge this fight after all. Can I use my triumph to let my Squad make a free attack right now?

GM: Why yes, yes you can. After that we’ll need to roll initiative slots.

SL: Alright, let’s take out one of these stormtroopers. (Rolls the attack for his minions, 7 of them, they roll really well, and kill one of the minion stormtroopers).

GM: Okay, your squad all attacks before the stormtroopers can quite figure out what’s going on, and a hail of blaster fire lances the stormtrooper who had questioned the noise, leaving his armor riddled full of smoking holes. Okay, Let’s figure out initiative, guys. I’m gonna need Cool checks from all of you to determine initiative, the stormtroopers will be rolling Vigilance, though. The sergeant rolls a 1.4, and the remaining 7 stormie minions roll 1.0.

SL: Okay, I got a 2.2, also, I hit another triumph.

CM: 3.1

MD: 0.2

GM: Okay, so it goes Rebel, Rebel, Imperial, Imperial, Rebel. Anything you want to spend that triumph on?

SL: Well, It’d be nice to switch to a new formation, since we aren’t exactly trying to be stealthy anymore. I have a feeling I’ll need my troops later for the assault on the camp if this is the size of their patrol, so let’s switch to Dug In, increase our survivability some.

GM: Okay, you’re switched. Who’s gonna go first?

SL: I might as well. I know we were already using the brush off the path as soft cover, are there more sturdy trees we can shift toward to provide actual cover, and stack with our dug in formation?

GM: Sure, I’ll let you guys do that for a maneuver. You were already pretty close to it, but a quick shift in posture, and your squad is able to provide cover fire and maximize their protection from the trees.

SL: Cool, also, I’d like to attack the sergeant. If we take him out, the minions should go down easier.

GM: Okay, roll your attack. Also, I’m going to upgrade this check, and did I mention this enemy has adversary I? So you are rolling 2 reds.

SL: Great. (Rolls, hits, but also hits a despair)

GM: Okay, your blaster bolt glances off his armor, but staggers him slightly. However, the rest of your squad seems to have lost fire discipline during the fray, and they aren’t really protecting each other anymore. For your despair, you have dropped out of the formation, though you guys are still grouped as a squad.

SL: Awe, man.

GM: Okay, who wants to go next?

CM: I’ll go. I want to maneuver a little closer and slightly behind them, and take cover. I want to do it real sneaky like, though.

GM: Okay, I’ll need a stealth check against their perception. I’ll give you a boost since they are a lot more concerned about the hail of blaster bolts coming from the squad, and another boost because of all the soft cover in the area.

CM: Sweet. (Rolls, succeeds) Okay, I want to take out my grenade, and I want to cook it so they won’t have time to run away once they see it land.

GM: Okay, you can make the attack next turn then, with a boost to the attack. Okay, Imperials get to go. The Sergeant is going to order his men into a squad as his maneuver, he gets a boost because stormtroopers have discipline. Let’s see here, success, so this second imperial initiative slot can go away, and if minions are later separated from the imperial squad, they will act during the same slot as the squad, just separately). Okay, now he’s going to attack the squad leader (all attacks to a squad(ron) are directed at the leader unless die results or squad mechanics move the hit to a minion within the unit). Okay, his attack roll, suffering one black because of the cover bonus, but only one, because you guys broke formation….what do you know, triumph! Okay. So let’s deal with the attack itself first. SL, you want to redirect it?

SL: Actually, no, I think I’ll take this first hit. MD can always patch me up.

GM: Your funeral. Okay, so the sergeant points you out as the target, and all his men fire right the tree you are behind. A stray blaster bolt grazes your arm. You suffer…let’s see…..10 wounds, minus your 4 soak.

SL: Ouch.

GM: Indeed. Also, because of the triumph, one of the stray blaster bolts of the volley catches a member of your squad in the belly, and he crumples up, then goes still. That brings you down to 6 guys in the squad.

SL: Medic!

MD: It’s my turn anyway. I’m going to rush over to that fallen minion and see if I can’t help him out.

GM: Alright, go ahead and make a medicine check, let’s say Hard, and with a setback because you are in the middle of combat.

MD: Don’t you die on me! I wrap the wound and try and revive him. (Rolls, fails)

GM: I’m sorry, he’s gone.

MD: Noooooo!

GM: Okay, that’s one round. Who wants to go first?

CM: You know I’m ready to toss that grenade, it’s cooking.

GM: Okay, go ahead.

CM: Rolls, Woooo! Success, two advantage, and a triumph.

GM: Alright, so they never saw this coming, and never really had a chance to get out of the way, but one loyal stormtrooper saw it arc in his field of fire, and he leapt on top of it, absorbing most of the blast. He dies. And with the triumph, we’ll say that he angled himself to protect the squad leader as best as possible, but that also focused the blast toward the guy standing next to him. The blast sends that other stormtrooper flying, and he dies too. That’s three minions down so far. He has 5 left in the imp squad.

CM: I was hoping to activate blast, but I’ll take it. I want to ready my rifle for next round.

GM: Okay, who’s next.

SL: I might as well go. We are losing too many guys, I want to dig back in, double our cover bonus.

GM: Okay, average leadership check.

SL: Success, with a threat.

GM: Okay, one of your minions is a bit too far out, so he isn’t really part of the squad. That puts you down 3 minions total, though two of them are alive, just separated.

SL: Fair enough. Now I also get an attack. Let’s try and weaken this squad a bit more before their next attack here, I want to upgrade our check, that red scares me. (Rolls, succeeds, result, one more minion down)

GM: Okay, blaster bolts are flying back and forth, and another stormtrooper minion drops. He’s down to 4 minions, you’ve cut his squad in half. That lone rebel minion gets to go now, he’ll take a shot at the squad. (Rolls) And he hits. The squad leader will redirect to a minion again, and it’s his turn now, he’s going to order his squad into the Dug In formation as well, and have his guys step back toward the tree line on the opposite side of the path. (Rolls, gets threat) Okay, well one of his men didn’t quite get that message, and he’s still out on the path. The squad only has 2 guys left in it. This minion gets to act right after the squad though. For their action, the squad is going to attack the rebel squad again, he gets those two setbacks though, because of the formation and the cover. (Rolls, fails), well, so much for that. Stormtrooper marksmanship at its finest. Now that lone separated minion gets to go. Blaster bolts are whizzing all around him, but he has figured out where CM is. And he takes a shot at him. (Rolls) Okay, we have a success here, take 10 damage, minus soak.

CM: I ain’t got time to bleed.

MD: My turn?

GM: Yes.

MD: I’ll give up on this poor dead Rebel, and blast that lone minion. (rolls, succeeds)

GM: Okay, yeah, you catch him in the armor gap at the shoulder, and he drops his weapon and falls to the ground, writhing in pain.

SL: Great shot!

CM: I owe you one.

GM: Okay, back to the top of the order.

CM: Let’s finish these guys. I’ll blast the squad.

GM: Okay, two setback though, for their armor and their dug in formation.

CM: I don’t think it’ll matter. (Rolls) Boom! Tons of success, looks like…13 damage.

GM: Okay, but he redirects again, so all that damage does is vaporize the helmet, along with the head, of one of the stormtroopers in the squad. There’s only the sergeant and one minion left, guys.

SL: Okay, I think we got this. I’ll attack the squad as well. (Rolls) Umm, hrm. Success, Triumph, Despair, and two advantage.

GM: Oh boy. Alright. So let’s see how we’ll resolve this. First let’s deal with the attack. It hits, but gets redirected. So the last minion goes down. How do you want to spend the triumph.

SL: Absolutely an immediate free attack from the minions.

GM: Okay, but for the despair, your formation is broken again. However, because that last minion is gone, the enemy squad is considered disbanded. So you only have to roll the setback for the sergeant’s armor.

SL: If I don’t get a real maneuver soon (beca use I’ve had to spend them all getting back into formation), I’m going to start sprouting roots. But okay. This minion attack should go big. I still have enough guys to max out the roll. (Rolls) Um, yeah. Look at all the positive things.

GM: Yeah I think you got him. Let’s see….14 damage? Yeah. The squad hits him once and spins him around out of cover, and the half a dozen shots that follow drop him with a wet thwack to the jungle floor.

Anyway, hope that clears a few things up for you guys about how this should look and feel in practice at the table. Sorry it took an extra day, this just ended up being longer (and a bit more fun) than I had planned originally.

Thanks! I had a TON of fun with it. I can't wait to start hearing some stories about how it worked at the table!

on paper that adventure looks awesome. I read it last night. I like the sidebar for GMs to plan the encounters/events especially.

Anyway, hope that clears a few things up for you guys about how this should look and feel in practice at the table. Sorry it took an extra day, this just ended up being longer (and a bit more fun) than I had planned originally.

Fantastic! Thanks for taking the time to do this, Keith. It does clear a lot up for me... and sorry if I was a little dense not to get it at first. I think I know how to make this work, now.

Yeah, no problem. If more questions come up, let me know.

Thanks a million for the demo!

Nice play-by-play, I have posted this on my Obsidian Portal forum for my players to check out. Credit given of course.

Thanks!

Got my GMK. And did a quick read through. Really like the adventure and there was enough room 'between the lines' to really easily flesh out the adventure or expand on it. Well written and wish more of the adventures could be like this.

As far as the Squad(ron) rules...

Makes the leadership skill more useful. Also Leadership can become a universal skill when part of a squad(ron). Kind of disappointed that you only get a boost die for a specific skill based on the formation. Even with the new Tables, there isn't much difference between 1 squad member and 11 except for more and bigger blaster sponge. But i can understand the problem of it becoming too over powered.

Even with the new Tables, there isn't much difference between 1 squad member and 11 except for more and bigger blaster sponge . But i can understand the problem of it becoming too over powered.

I think that's exactly the point. They are going for a form of ablative protection for PCs and significant NPCs. If your soldiers are good enough that they can stand on their own, then let them.

I can see value in sucking some minions up into squads and leaving others out. Some become damage sponges and others deal more damage for you.

Tried out a squad last night. There was a little bit of confusion from some players, but the one actually using the squad seemed more than happy with the easy benefits that come from using them.

Reprint listed in updates already, must have sold pretty well...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_upcoming.asp

Keith, that squad example play was a great read!

I'm looking forward to using these rules in combat.

Oh, one thing I should have included. Remember getting into a formation or squad(ron) is a manuever. Feel free to encourage people to suffer strain to gain that bonus manuever to both form a squad(ron) and hit a formation in one turn, or to switch formations and still move the unit! The burden of leadership is stressful!

Oh, one thing I should have included. Remember getting into a formation or squad(ron) is a manuever. Feel free to encourage people to suffer strain to gain that bonus manuever to both form a squad(ron) and hit a formation in one turn, or to switch formations and still move the unit! The burden of leadership is stressful!

can you do an example of a snub fighter squadron using these rules?

I gave these squad rules a test run without even the group realising. Narratively was fantastic as the minions were being hit instead of the Nemesis Militia Captain. No one felt mechanically disadvantaged as I narrated how a minion foolishly ran out of his cover to what he thought was a better spot and took the hit meant for the Captain and so on to the remaining Captain where our Bounty Hunter, firing auto fire hit the Captain several times and had a triumph in his roll so narrated how the shot penetrated through the helmets visor, blowing his head out inside the helmet, leaving nothing but bone fragments, blood and brain pieces. He left and didn't come back that session, felt no better roll could come along.

Daeglan, I have a lot of stuff I'm juggling writing wise and logistics wise as GenCon looms two weeks out. If I can find some free time after GenCon, I'll see what I can do to that effect. The example I gave was ground just because I wanted to minimize and simplify the scenario so that I was mostly dealing with squad(ron) rules.

DVeight, glad to hear these rules are making it to the table and working well!

I also think that now, as GM's, we have the opportunity to utilise both 'group' rules from the Edge of Empire and those in the Age of Rebellion GM kit. We can mix and match as we see fit, determining what is best for that particular encounter.

One must remember that this game system is built to promote a narrative game. This isn't a tactical board game, moving models x amount of squares, counting ranges, positions etc. After seven months with my group, last session, for the first time no one demanded models on the table to visualise or count distances, etc. I also have been for a while now avoiding to rely on that. I will do it for those 'special' designed sessions of mine so the group can have fun with seeing the scene on table though everything in this game happens utilising imagination and your mother language.

Will definitely be using these rules.

Our players are wanting to play a game as a capital ship crew, and allowing the pilot characters to have two or three 'stunt doubles' formed up around them makes a hell of a difference - as you noted, in a massed space combat, fighters go down like ninepins to big minion groups because it's **** difficult to improve your defence much beyond the odd setback die from defensive driving, shields, or spent advantage.