One thing I don't understand is that it says once you form a squad they lose their place in the initiative order.

Well, no one character has a single given place--it's just where PCs go or where the GMs guys go. It can vary from round to round.

But then it has references to your squad attacking.

Do they get to attack on the squad leader's turn?

Does the squad leader take actions for them to attack or is it like two characters (a minion group and the squad leader) go on one initiative spot?

Also, it says if they leave the squad they go after the leader, but again there is no fixed order for specific characters.

I'm not sure remembering what spot someone acted last won't slow things down.

Squad rules seem a bit vague. Am I missing something?

I kinda felt this too.

It's basically using minion groups, only with a few options.

I like the formations, but I'm not sure any two given people will implement the rules for how minions act the same. I look at it as good for the right situation. I was hoping for a bit more about starfighter squadrons.

And the redirecting a hit to a minion rule, while handy in a nasty starfighter battle, is not very heroic and I'd think your next leadership role (and roll) would suffer.

Fortunately, the guy who wrote the squad rules is a regular visitor to these forums and it's likely that you will get a direct answer soon.

That would be great.

FWIW the GM screen adventure is worth it alone so I don't want to steer people away.

I'm just not sure about when people in the squadron attack. Is it only through spending advantage rolls on the table?

Our Tactician PC found the 'look out sir!' rule odd, considering she has 2 ranks of Bodyguard and the Personnel duty.

That's appropriate for Imperial Moff Types, but it seems odd that Alliance leaders would use their guys as human shields.

But yeah, it's a fun adventure and worth it just for that.

Really weird I have this in Wales when many of you US guys don't have it.

(and I'm pretty much Keith's stalker at this point, so it will be cool if he comes on here to explain )

Our Tactician PC found the 'look out sir!' rule odd, considering she has 2 ranks of Bodyguard and the Personnel duty.

That's appropriate for Imperial Moff Types, but it seems odd that Alliance leaders would use their guys as human shields.

But yeah, it's a fun adventure and worth it just for that.

Really weird I have this in Wales when many of you US guys don't have it.

(and I'm pretty much Keith's stalker at this point, so it will be cool if he comes on here to explain )

That's why it's called "Look out sir!" and not "Hey private, stand here a sec..."

Well, it was called that in Warhammer I think (or at least it used to be)

Here it's not called anything, and just feels a bit odd.

Although I guess 'heroic sacrifice' is suitable for the Alliance redshirts.

Right, valid complaints. So the idea for Squad and Squadron rules is absolutely that it allows rivals, nemeses, and PCs to combine with minion groups. The verbage on losing their place in the initiative order is worded a little wonky, perhaps. The heart of the rule is that they no longer get a separate attack, as the leader and the minions are all one entity when it comes to that element of combat. The core idea is to add survivability to BBEGs and PCs for those larger scale battles that GMs might want to run, since AOR lends itself to that kind of play.

As for the idea of redirecting damage seeming unbecoming of the Rebellion, I would first point to the trench run, where the Rebels did use each other as human shields to get the shooter down the trench. I would also say that you don't have to consider the use of the rule something the character is doing consciously, it could be the minions leaping ahead, or the shooters retroactively having picked a target near the leader, but that isn't the leader. The squad leader ordering someone to leap in front of the blast isn't the best or only way to describe how that rule works.

Happy to discuss anything in the AOR GMK in detail!

I don't have the GM screen yet, but actually ordered it first before the other 2 releases until my wife-accountant gives me permission to order the entire shebang.

I ordered the screen specifically to get my hands on the squad rules. Some of my old posts here will indicate that I had wished for not an entirely new system but something using the minion rules, leadership skills, etc. From the posts above I've got my hopes up that I won't be let down when it arrives. Thanks.

Well, it was called that in Warhammer I think (or at least it used to be)

Here it's not called anything, and just feels a bit odd.

Although I guess 'heroic sacrifice' is suitable for the Alliance redshirts.

Good to see you again!

Thanks kaosoe. I didn't intend to leave for good... Just felt right to step out of the firing line for a bit. Also, the game discussions seemed to have dried up, but hopefully that will change with AoR now out.

Thanks for the clarifications, Keith. I'd assumed it was the minions choosing to sacrifice themselves rather than the leader callously chucking them in front to save themselves!

The heart of the rule is that they no longer get a separate attack, as the leader and the minions are all one entity when it comes to that element of combat.

Thanks. That was my initial impression but later references to the squad attacking threw me. I guess those attack references are when the squad leader spends Triumph from the table.

I really appreciate your answers so I have a few more questions.

Regarding the spending on the table, are those for spending from Leadership roll results? So am I to assume the squad leader is making a new Leadership roll on his turn each round giving orders? (I see it says they don't have to roll each turn to keep the squad together.)

We know what happens if the squad leader is hit. What if the squad is a target? Just treat it as a minion group but without the squad leader's Wound score and defensive benefits?

What happens if you take out a squad leader? It should have a benefit or why would you target a squad leader who probably has defense and defensive talents compared to the squad?

Oh and I 100% get that Rebels sacrifice and I can add the flavor. What I'm saying is that it's a powerful tool to place in the hands of the player specifically and begs for metagame decisions just to keep the PC alive when maybe a real rebel leader would not. Biggs was no minion; he was 100% PC hero in my eyes. Maybe a few of the nameless snowspeeder wingmen are more in the spirit of this rule. It's good for the right situation and right player. I think I'll spend some time putting some faces on the squad to make the player sacrificing little Heku's dad sting a bit more. Plus consequences if you come back with half your squad and not a scratch yourself.

Also, thanks for your good work on the GM kit.

So to your first issues, the tables are named "Spending X and Y during Squad and Squadron Combat" because they can kind of be spent from any pilot, combat, or leadership check as appropriate. When it comes to spending die results, I'm of the mindset in this system that the best expenditures are ones created at the table to impact the story narratively, and that having tables like this are important only to help prompt a starting place for ideas, or a quick answer to move on with the game if everyone is stumped after a particular roll.

If you specifically attack a minion, I would treat it as a standard minion group for the purposes of taking damage as you suggest.

A squad or squadron, as stated on page 28, is considered "disbanded" if the squad leader is taken out. I don't see it in here, but I believe the intent was that being disbanded also removes any formations the squad or squadron might be in.

Note that Andy or Sam might have different rulings on this, as they were involved in the final editing and playtesting, and might have tweaked some things intentionally for a purpose I'm not aware of. Obviously any ruling they make on any of this stuff overwrites anything I might say.

Thanks. I really appreciate it. Helps it come together.

To comments about this mechanic not being heroic, you're right but it is cinematic.

My one complaint about the system is you seem to be sacrificing the attack power of the minion group except on the small chances of getting the right Advantage/Triumph to spend in order to do so. I was hoping since the squad is dependant on the initiative slot of the leader that the leader would get some default bonus dice to his/her combat pools.

So can you give a combat example so we can see how this works. Cause i don't quite get it.

When a squad attacks...Do you role the minion group of the PCs attack? Does the PC role their attack and the minion groups attack as a separate roll?

okay I really like the attempts to streamline mass combat in AoR so far. they all fit together in a way that makes this game different from Edge of the Empire... that being said, I also have a question about the squad/squadron rules.

So, in Return of the Jedi the Falcon is Gold Leader. There's a squadron... presumably not all made up of YT-1300s behind it. Can you combine ship types in a squadron with these rules? If so, how?

"A squad or squadrons silhouette size is 1 higher than that of it's largest member."

So yes, if you're in a S4 ship and you've got half a dozen Minion pilots in S3 snub fighters you can form the squadron and it'll be S5.

For me this was something I was thinking of, because it is using the existing rules and applying them different ways. Even so far as treating a squadron as crew on a ship and being able to use fire discipline to h3lp out

that's great. I've got plans for my players, along with their YT-1210, to form up with a trio of Y-Wings and now I can use these rules comfortably.

Now let me ask you this, now that the group is size 5 can I use the attack options laid out for size 5+ vehicles?

Nice. Just this morning, I was involved in playing out the battle at the end of Operation: Shadowpoint, or at least a close proximity thereto. I kept thinking: these minions really want to group with their commanders. I wish there was a way to deal with that.

I've always felt like the key to success for AoR was going to be transitioning from personal combat to mass combat. (and for F&D, the key will be getting the right "feel" for lightsaber dueling). Sounds like the GM screen will get us off to a good start.

My Cool Stuff copy is waiting at the local FedEx office for delivery to me in the morning. Can't wait to tear into it.

These rules are not in the main book?

These rules are not in the main book?

No, they're optional rules included in the GM kit. A similar thing was done with the Nemesis rules included in the Edge of the Empire GM kit.