Say I'm the experimental sort and am running a Falcon with Tactician. I have a ship, we'll say a shuttle for likelihood purposes. Outside my firing arc it is at range 1. Inside my firing arc it is at range 2.

Can I use Tactician?

Can I use Tactician at range 1 this way?

Am I forced to "turn off" my turret and take a range 2 shot to uae tactician? Can I turn off my turret to do this?

Anyway, an unlikely scenario, but a strange one.

When attacking with a turret primary weapon, a ship may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc.

You always attack with the turret, which gives you a 360-degree target choice. Targeting a ship inside your firing arc doesn't "turn off" the turret. That would mean the shortest point-to-point is the range that matters, and it would be a range-1 shot.

Secondary turrets would give you the potential to turn them on or off, but at that point the range measurement is clear once the appropriate weapon has been selected.

It appears tactician would not trigger. When you are firing at a ship you cannot choose to fire at a further range, you always measure closest-to-closest. So, if the closest to closest measurement would make the shot you took at range 1, tactician will not trigger (it only triggers when the attack you make is at range 2).

I think the FAQ might cover this in the "AT" vs "WITHIN" section but I am work at the moment and can't double check.

Due to your turret, the shot is occuring "AT" range 1. But the exact wording on Tactician implies that if it is in your arc at range 2 when you fire on it, it will trigger. I think this is what you are asking, Aminar?

I'll have to take a look at it further when I get home and can pull up/post pics and such. Hamstringed here on my office laptop.

So does that negate the tacticians wording given that the ship is inside your firing arc at range 2? The specific wording is part of the question. I know that you measure closest point to closest point for determining range. Functionally the card does not say the attack has to be range 2, only that the target be in your firing arc at range 2. Which I this scenario it is...

Actually, looking at it more I think it's exactly the opposite. Tactician says:

After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2,...

This is not using the measured range of the attack, which means that it will ALWAYS use the direct, shortest range measurement to determine the "range 2" check. This is reinforced by the FAQ entry for "at".

The one and only time range measurements care about the arc is when you're selecting a target for the attack. Tactician isn't doing so.

It's very possible that FFG will say that the various "in your arc" requirements combine to force the combat-specific range check, but at least for now there aren't any rules to combine "inside your firing arc" and "at Range 2" - they're separate conditions.

Tactician had 2 criteria that needs to be fulfilled.

At Range 2 and

Inside your firing arc.

The situation in the OP has the target partly inside and outside the falcons printed firing arc. But it does satisfy the criteria Insude your firing arc.

Since you fire a turret weapon you ignore the printed firing arc when messuring ranfe and simply measure the closest dustance between the bases. Which is At Range 1. This grants you an additional attack die, and does not satisfy the criteria of Tactician. So the card dies bot trigger.

Surprisingly their is no card pic available yet but the quoted text will work for this discussion.

After looking at it I'm going to agree with Buhallin on this one.

The criteria on the card makes it seem like you have to have made the attack at range 2, but that is not what the card's trigger is saying. It is saying that "after the attack", which means your selection for range has already taken place and you are making another range check for tactician.

You attack at range 1 out of arc but then check tactician requirements after the attack and the in arc check puts the ship at range 2, so tactician's effect comes into play.

The way I read it is you perform an attack against a ship at range 2 and inside your firing arc. Then after that conditional attack, they receive a stress token. If you chose to shoot at range 1, surely you aren't fulfilling the requirements of the card.

It doesn't say "after you attack, if the ship is inside your firing arc and at range 2..."

The definition of "AT" in the FAQ says closest part of the target's base touches that range section. Which means if you could take a shot AT range 1, it's not AT range 2.

@ Parravon

You have to look at it carefully. It is very easy to think that the targeted shot must be shot at range 2 but that is not what tactician is saying. "After the attack" is tactician's trigger, so the range 1 shot has come and gone when you check for range 2 on Tactician.

It is usually bundled together for effects like these, the effect limiter and range shot are the same, or Aminar found one scenario that it works differently with this particular card.

Surprisingly their is no card pic available yet but the quoted text will work for this discussion.

After looking at it I'm going to agree with Buhallin on this one.

The criteria on the card makes it seem like you have to have made the attack at range 2, but that is not what the card's trigger is saying. It is saying that "after the attack", which means your selection for range has already taken place and you are making another range check for tactician.

You attack at range 1 out of arc but then check tactician requirements after the attack and the in arc check puts the ship at range 2, so tactician's effect comes into play.

Text reads

After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token

So timing wise the targeted ship recieves a stress token after the attack.

But it is quite clear that the range anc firing arc are part of tge attack sequence and not checked again.

Ah English parsing... is it:

1. After [you preform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at range 2]

or

2. After you preform an attack against a ship [inside your firing arc at range 2]

or even

3. After you preform an attack against a ship [inside your firing arc] [at range 2]

English grammar certainly allows you to include the location/range description as part of the trigger, which would keep Tactician from working in this case because while the ship was inside your firing arc, you did not attack at range 2. However, it could also split the structure such that the trigger is only after attacking, which then has 2 more ways to interpret the rest of the qualifiers (range 2 as measured inside the arc, tactician will work vs inside arc and at range 2 measured independently, tactician won't work because the ship is indeed at range 1).

I think #3 is extremely unlikely to be the ruling as it actually keeps Tactician from working in this example if a non-turret ship fires at range 2 (because the targeted ship is at range 1 still).

I think #1 is most likely personally, though I don't have any proof to back that up. I think it's going to need clarification regardless.

So does that negate the tacticians wording given that the ship is inside your firing arc at range 2? The specific wording is part of the question. I know that you measure closest point to closest point for determining range. Functionally the card does not say the attack has to be range 2, only that the target be in your firing arc at range 2. Which I this scenario it is...

Actually, looking at it more I think it's exactly the opposite. Tactician says:

After you perform an attack against a ship inside your firing arc at Range 2,...

This is not using the measured range of the attack, which means that it will ALWAYS use the direct, shortest range measurement to determine the "range 2" check. This is reinforced by the FAQ entry for "at".

The one and only time range measurements care about the arc is when you're selecting a target for the attack. Tactician isn't doing so.

It's very possible that FFG will say that the various "in your arc" requirements combine to force the combat-specific range check, but at least for now there aren't any rules to combine "inside your firing arc" and "at Range 2" - they're separate conditions.

Hooray for another messy scenario that will almost never matter...

@ Parravon

You have to look at it carefully. It is very easy to think that the targeted shot must be shot at range 2 but that is not what tactician is saying. "After the attack" is tactician's trigger, so the range 1 shot has come and gone when you check for range 2 on Tactician.

It is usually bundled together for effects like these, the effect limiter and range shot are the same, or Aminar found one scenario that it works differently with this particular card.

I beg to disagree with you. The trigger is indeed "after you perform an attack" but the condition is that the attack was made against a ship inside the firing arc at range 2. If you took the range 1 shot, you're not meeting the card conditions. If you took a turret shot outside of arc, you're not meeting the conditions. I honestly don't see how it could read any other way.

I thought about this afterwards and Dbmeboy explains perfectly where the confusion comes into play.

The triggering condition for Tactician is interpreted as either:

1) After you perform an attack. The target is inside your firing arc at range 2

2) After you perform an attack at range 2 in your firing arc

Because of the YT's ability to target outside of its firing arc, its makes the triggering condition for Tactician somewhat unclear.

I'm going to fire it off to Frank and see what comes back.

I'm starting to think thought that it is # 2 instead of #1 (when you consider a normal ships application).

You have to ignore the fact that the YT can fire 360°. That's not its firing arc. The definition of 'arc' is the printed arc on the base, so the attacked ship must be in the angled front arc and at range 2, in order for Tactician to trigger.

The card text is a single sentence, it's not broken down at all, which makes me think all three conditions must be met to be able to cause the stress, as per your #2. It's also a statement type card, and not an "if, then" type. If the conditions are right, you get it.

I think I can guess what Frank's conclusion is likely to be. The only thing I can't be sure of, is when we'll hear from him.

Surprisingly Franks been fairly quick, like a week or two only.

Surprisingly Franks been fairly quick, like a week or two only.

That's no good! Some one should tell him to get back to work on the Imperial Huge ships instead of answereing our petty squabbles

If we play a bit with the language we might actually make it easier to figure out.

The trick is inside vs. outside tve firibg arc.

So if we define being inside the firing arc as not being entirely outside the firing arc we get:

After you perform an attack against a ship not entirely outside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token.

All of a sudden the Range and firing arc issue vanishes. Because now there is nothing in the text messing with where range is measured.

How does tactician work on a CR-90?

Exactly the same. Meaning when you fire a hardpoint at Range 2 the target gets 1 stress token.

Exactly the same. Meaning when you fire a hardpoint at Range 2 the target gets 1 stress token.

All four of the arcs get this bonus? or just the arcs that are on the section (fore or aft) that the card is equipped to?

Exactly the same. Meaning when you fire a hardpoint at Range 2 the target gets 1 stress token.

All four of the arcs get this bonus? or just the arcs that are on the section (fore or aft) that the card is equipped to?

If we play a bit with the language we might actually make it easier to figure out.

The trick is inside vs. outside tve firibg arc.

So if we define being inside the firing arc as not being entirely outside the firing arc we get:

After you perform an attack against a ship not entirely outside your firing arc at Range 2, that ship receives 1 stress token.

All of a sudden the Range and firing arc issue vanishes. Because now there is nothing in the text messing with where range is measured.

That's kind of irrelevant, as when you attack, you check to see if any part of the base is inside your firing arc. It's almost like using a double negative. Firing arcs and Range are both clearly defined in the rules (page 10), so these conditions are hard to misinterpret.

The issue is when the attack was taken, was it taken at range 1 just outside the arc, even though some of the ship was in arc at range 2? If you attacked at range 1, you can't claim Tactician. The attack, the range and the arc are all part of the conditions to be met.

Aminar's hypothetical poses two options: Range 1 shot outside arc for +1 attack die, or Range 2 shot inside arc for Tactician inducing Stress. It's one or the other, not best of both.

Technically I can see the argument for both better than I can see taking a range two shot at a ship the falcon can get a range one shot at. The question becomes, where do the ttriggers lie, and I'm glad someone has sent out an email.