Can any one tell me the ruling about when Munitions Failsafe is combined with Cluster Missiles.
Munitions Failsafe
When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it to perform the attack, do not discard it unless the attack hits.
Cluster Missiles
Spend your target lock and discard this card to perform this attack twice.
If the first attack misses do I keep the Cluster Missiles. Because that attack missed!
I think the general consensus has been that Munitions Failsafe keeps Cluster Missiles from being discarded only if both attacks miss, though I have yet to see an official ruling posted nor is the consensus unanimous.
We played it that both Cluster Missile attacks have to miss for Munitions Failsafe to go into effect.
EDIT: Ninja'ed.
Edited by DailyRichThe "consensus" has been that both attacks must miss to cause Failsafe to trigger. There has been at least one member who is VERY vocal about it only looking at the first attack to determine if it triggers. Official clarification is still being waited for.
The way that it is worded merely says to perform the attack twice; there isn't a "first" attack or a "second" attack; they're technically occurring simultaneously, so munitions fail safe can't distinguish between one or the other so if one hits, than munitions fail safe doesn't come into play. Plus it'd make cluster missiles too OP. Which probably is the better answer...
they're technically occurring simultaneously, so munitions fail safe can't distinguish between one or the other
They're not simultaneous. One occurs, then the other. If the first deals a crit that affects the ship - say reduced agility, or you're lucky enough to give Fel a stress - then that is in effect for the second attack.
Looking back over this again and considering the timing, I actually think it's very solid that you discard it when either attack hits. I actually got here by wondering about the timing as a whole... how does an ability that doesn't trigger until 4 phases after the discard stop the discard? But that's not the timing...
Let's break down the text for Munitions Failsafe:
When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it to perform the attack: This is our timing. It means the Munitions Failsafe is active for the entire attack, and for every attack made with a qualifying weapon. This is how it works even though the check occurs long after the card should have been discarded.
do not discard it: So the card stays in play...
unless the attack hits.: Until this condition is met.
So the Failsafe ability covers the entirety of both attacks, and the "this attack hits" is checked each time the attack goes off. When a hit occurs, the Failsafe tells you to discard the missile (I think that's part of the Failsafe effect, not the original discard cost coming due, but that's academic).
I honestly don't remember what the counter-argument was, but I feel like this is a pretty solid read on how the card actually works, which leads naturally to the "one hit discards" conclusion.
Thanks!
I just received an official ruling from FFG:
In response to your rules question:
Awesome, thanks for posting this official ruling. While most of us knew this would be the ruling, this will surely shut up any of those who thought otherwise.
really, just saying you got an email makes it an official ruling now? Im not disagreeing with how the ruling should be, but until it's released in an errata its not official
really, just saying you got an email makes it an official ruling now? Im not disagreeing with how the ruling should be, but until it's released in an errata its not official
It's not officially official until it hits the FAQ.
But barring questioning the honesty of the messenger, which I don't think we have any reason to do, why wouldn't you play it the way you've been told from the developer that it should be played? "I know this is right but it's not in PDF yet so I'm going to ignore it and for you to dice it off with me" seems a strange approach.
It's not officially official until it hits the FAQ.really, just saying you got an email makes it an official ruling now? Im not disagreeing with how the ruling should be, but until it's released in an errata its not official
But barring questioning the honesty of the messenger, which I don't think we have any reason to do, why wouldn't you play it the way you've been told from the developer that it should be played? "I know this is right but it's not in PDF yet so I'm going to ignore it and for you to dice it off with me" seems a strange approach.
If you read the entirety of post you would see that I wasn't disagreeing with the way it's played, I just see no point in saying it's an official ruling if it's not in the errata. If the developer is so willing to respond to questions that don't really need answers where are they on the ones that do?
I just received an official ruling from FFG:
In response to your rules question:
Rule Question:Hi,Is there an official ruling on regards to munition failsafe & cluster missiles? Since cluster missiles gives one 2 separate attacks, if one of the attacks fails to hit - would munition failsafe kick in?Thanks,Cluster Missiles would not be discarded only if both attacks fail to deal damage.Thanks for asking,
Can I be rrrrrrreally pedantic here.
Dealing damage is not the same as scoring a hit ( think stealth devices Vs Assault Missile splash damage).
Failsafe is only activated if the attack hits, not if it "deals damage"
Granted I can't think of a single example where this might happen - except for Lt Blount - but failsafe doesn't work on him anyway because he always "hits" even if he does no damage - but that just serves as a case in point of how the two terms are defined differently.
really, just saying you got an email makes it an official ruling now? Im not disagreeing with how the ruling should be, but until it's released in an errata its not official
I guess this brings up the question "what is official?" I don't think there is any errata needed for the Cluster Missile failsafe although having the clarification hit the FAQ can hopefully silence those who want to read in other ways.
I just received an official ruling from FFG:
In response to your rules question:
Rule Question:
Hi,
Is there an official ruling on regards to munition failsafe & cluster missiles? Since cluster missiles gives one 2 separate attacks, if one of the attacks fails to hit - would munition failsafe kick in?
Thanks,
Cluster Missiles would not be discarded only if both attacks fail to deal damage.Thanks for asking,
Can I be rrrrrrreally pedantic here.
Dealing damage is not the same as scoring a hit ( think stealth devices Vs Assault Missile splash damage).
Failsafe is only activated if the attack hits, not if it "deals damage"
Granted I can't think of a single example where this might happen - except for Lt Blount - but failsafe doesn't work on him anyway because he always "hits" even if he does no damage - but that just serves as a case in point of how the two terms are defined differently.
The only way Cluster Missiles CAN hit is if they do damage, so in this ONE instance the terms are interchangeable.
The only way Cluster Missiles CAN hit is if they do damage, so in this ONE instance the terms are interchangeable.
agreed, however IMO it pays to keep the language tight - some numpty is bound to get hold of that quote, take it out of context and say "see? scoring a hit and dealing damage are interchangeable terms, some bloke from FFG just said so!"
Edited by FunkletonThe only way Cluster Missiles CAN hit is if they do damage, so in this ONE instance the terms are interchangeable.
In a cluster missile attack the only uncancelled die is a single (kaboom). The target has an a-wing buddy nearby with draw their fire and determination. The crit gets moved and a pilot crit is drawn, being discarded. The clusters have now hit with no damage being done.
The only way Cluster Missiles CAN hit is if they do damage, so in this ONE instance the terms are interchangeable.
In a cluster missile attack the only uncancelled die is a single (kaboom). The target has an a-wing buddy nearby with draw their fire and determination. The crit gets moved and a pilot crit is drawn, being discarded. The clusters have now hit with no damage being done.
Good call!
The only way Cluster Missiles CAN hit is if they do damage, so in this ONE instance the terms are interchangeable.
In a cluster missile attack the only uncancelled die is a single (kaboom). The target has an a-wing buddy nearby with draw their fire and determination. The crit gets moved and a pilot crit is drawn, being discarded. The clusters have now hit with no damage being done.
No need for an A-wing buddy. The guy taking the cluster missile pilot crit has determination himself.
I guess this brings up the question "what is official?"
IMO anything in the rules, FAQ or an email from Frank I'd consider official. It's not unheard of for a developer or "rules person" to make posts on the official forms or email people with an answer to a rules question.
Sure we could make the argument that the person made up the email... But that's just counter productive, because the emails here are more of a FAQ then an errata. It's clarifications on how the rules work, not change to the rules themselves.
No need for an A-wing buddy. The guy taking the cluster missile pilot crit has determination himself.
There it is! I knew I was missing a cleaner way to do it but it was late.
I just received an official ruling from FFG:
In response to your rules question:
Rule Question:
Hi,
Is there an official ruling on regards to munition failsafe & cluster missiles? Since cluster missiles gives one 2 separate attacks, if one of the attacks fails to hit - would munition failsafe kick in?
Thanks,
Cluster Missiles would not be discarded only if both attacks fail to deal damage.Thanks for asking,
Can I be rrrrrrreally pedantic here.
Dealing damage is not the same as scoring a hit ( think stealth devices Vs Assault Missile splash damage).
Failsafe is only activated if the attack hits, not if it "deals damage"
Granted I can't think of a single example where this might happen - except for Lt Blount - but failsafe doesn't work on him anyway because he always "hits" even if he does no damage - but that just serves as a case in point of how the two terms are defined differently.
The only way Cluster Missiles CAN hit is if they do damage, so in this ONE instance the terms are interchangeable.
I'm surprised that I'm the first one to point out Lt Blount.
I'm surprised that I'm the first one to point out Lt Blount.
I was just about to mention that Blount would "hit" but do no damage... and if you put failsafe on him, there are other questions I would bring up.
I'm surprised that I'm the first one to point out Lt Blount.
I was just about to mention that Blount would "hit" but do no damage... and if you put failsafe on him, there are other questions I would bring up.
And the answers to those questions are all "Yes, Blount still discards the missile even with Munitions Failsafe" 
I'm surprised that I'm the first one to point out Lt Blount.
You weren't 