(to the Defender)

There's a few threads out there lately in which people are interested in benchmarking the TIE Defender against the Firespray.

This is unfair, because the TIE Defender is completely outclassed.

TL;DR: the only reasons you would ever reasonably choose a Defender over a Firespray:

i) you only have enough points for a Defender;

ii) you want a more effective blocker;

iii) aesthetic appeal;

iv) you want a cheaper ship dollar-wise;

v) you want a less easy-to-block ship.

All of these (except perhaps iii, because those Defenders are sexy lookers) can be satisfied with other ships, so this could also be titled "Anything the Defender can do something else can do better".

I will not reiterate Major Juggler's MathWing results that tell you that the TIE Defender is one of the worst jousters in the game for its price. He's posted that several times already, I'm sure we're all familiar with it.

Instead, I'll be focusing on its ability to move and fire, which has been brought up in context with the Firespray.

A staple of the arguments which suggest it's a good choice to pick the Defender over the Firespray is the idea that, with its white 4 K-turn, the Defender has the near-equivalent of a rear firing arc. Near-equivalent, because proponents seem to feel that being able to use it for a secondary weapon shot gives it the edge.

This is simply the wrong assessment.

From a given starting point, this is the range of modifiable shots you can take with the TIE Defender in the pseudo-rear firing arc. If you barrel roll to soften your need to predict, your range of shots becomes this:

And this is nice, assuming you are able to pull off the K-turn/barrel roll without being blocked.

That's kind of a big deal. The Defender only has one K-turn, and it's speed 4. I speculate here (since my K-turn use on the Defender has not yet been blocked) that in a situation where you think it will be useful to K-turn and get a shot off, your opponent will also get an idea that that's what you're after. The limited speed options makes avoiding (to force a barrel roll, which equals an unmodified shot) or blocking it trivial-- and if you do get blocked, you do not turn around. No rear arc for you.

A Firespray's rear arc cannot get blocked. If that alone does not convince you that it's far better than the Defender's 4 K-turn, I'll put some harder evidence out there.

Here's a picture showing you with merely the banking and turning 1-and-2-speed maneuvers where its ranges lie:

Having the option to change the angle of that rear arc is crucial. Even at speeds limited to 1 and 2, the Firespray's rear arc has clear superiority with the primary weapon.

And, to wit, if you are into taking unmodified secondary weapon shots with your Defender using barrel rolls, we have to allow the option for the Firespray to take its unmodified secondary weapon shot using its two speeds of red K-turns:

The plain Defender's only saving grace is one arc of shots that the Firespray can't get: a secondary weapon shot with 4 dice and the ability to have focused or target-locked prior to shooting it; even then, you must be using the HLC in order to have a dice advantage over the Firespray's primary with that shot. Price-wise, you've now upped the PS 1 Defender to 4 points more than the BH, and what have you gotten for it? -2 PS, -1 shields, -3 hull, +1 agility, +1 attack (except at range 1), no +1 evade to targets at Range 3, -90% of the rear firing arc, 75% smaller base, +barrel rolls, -evasive actions. Is it worth it?

Colonel Vessery is a different story. His auto-target lock on a pre-target locked target is a superb ability. However, one good pilot does not redeem a ship; it makes a niche pilot. We've seen this with Vader.

So we've cleared up (I hope) the idea that a white 4 K-turn is anywhere close to making the Defender comparable to the Firespray in terms of ability to attack.

Now we're going to talk about dials.

We'll start with the non-red maneuvers, shown side-by-side from the same front edge starting point.

It surprised me how similar they were. (I did not include barrel rolls because that would have been prohibitively time-consuming) Specifically, their top speed maneuvers net them the same distance, and they have very similar lateral movement patterns, even in the white sections. But now, suppose we want to clear the stress (since these are non-red maneuvers, presumably we are stressed). Here's the green maneuvers from the same starting point.

Perhaps, simply by glancing at the dial, you would have guessed that the Defender is really hampered by stress. And you'd be right. If the Defender gets stressed, it can only go straight if it wants to clear it. Not only that, but the Firespray has the option to access banked shots with green maneuvers; this means that, against an enemy to the side, the stressed Defender pilot is forced to choose between the ability to modify his dice or the ability to take a shot this round at all, which is not a choice the Firespray is ever faced with.

Seeing the maneuvers it can and can't do while stressed in the previous picture still makes it seem not too bad; it can still turn and it can go fast. Faster than the Firespray, even if it wants to clear stress, so on a far-away ship it can easily close, focus or TL, shoot at better range than the Firespray. Not so bad at all.

But if you think that way, as I used to, consider this example which actually happened to me: I was directly approaching the edge of the board, and used Opportunist for a 5-shot Range 1 primary attack (focused, and TL'ed from Vessery's ability) from the side. Finished off the target, but then... I eyeball the distance and guess that a 3 turn will put me off the edge. This situation spelled pure trouble.

There is only one route you can take on the Defender dial to survive.

If a 3 turn sends you off, you can only 1 bank and then 3 turn. Clearing your stress isn't an option until the third maneuver, because these are both white.

Was this a great position to get myself into? No. It was worth it to take out the E-Wing, but then I had to wait quite a while for my "heavy hitter" to get back into the fray. Fortunately there were no other ships around, and likewise fortunate that the target didn't survive.

Would the Firespray have had the same issue?

No. Its 2 turn is white.

The ability to only clear your stress by going straight can, under the right circumstances, be incredibly prohibitive. The Defender's dial certainly likes to make those "right circumstances" easy to stumble across.

So I conclude that in nearly every way, the TIE Defender is completely outclassed by the Firespray. There are a very select few things that it can do that the Firespray doesn't. And Colonel Vessery is a nice pilot who could find a niche in some Imperial builds, depending of course on the ability to acquire/maintain target locks (Expert Handling and/or Wes Janson on the enemy side? While Vessery isn't 35+ points of dead weight without his ability triggering, he's not too far from it).

My personal thoughts? FFG made the sharp turns red because they were planning on giving the Defender the ability to use its short sharp turns like K-turns, e.g., have the option to flip around after completing them. They nixed the idea and then forgot to take the red off the dial, leaving us with a ship that does nothing to redefine the meta or even eke out a place where it belongs uncontested.

Your last point favora the defender more. The firespray is horribly easy to send off the board if you screw up due to its large base. It's probably the second easiest ship to send off after the lambda.

That said, Rear Arc is clearly amazing.

Great analysis. If it had green banks and/or a white 2 turn then it would fly differently. It's a very straight-line ship.

Interesting that the large base ship 2 turn is slightly tighter than a small base ship 3 turn.

It would be nice to a simultaneous graph showing the Firespray's rear arc and the Defender's "extended" arc with K-turn + barrel roll options. It looks like the Defender can potentially still cover a little more space, just not all at once, and at the cost of losing an action to the Barrel Roll, which is pretty big.

You're right, OP. The Defender does seem like a worse option compared to the Firespray if you're going to spend that many points on a single ship. I don't know why FFG didn't at least include a beam weapon on the Defender to differentiate it.

I disagree. I have plenty of experience in flying Firesprays. I still need some time to learn the Defender. The dial takes some getting used to. I haven't experimented all that much, but Vessory and Rexlar both will have showings. Rexlar loves this phase, as people will bring Y-wings, Falcons, and Firesprays to fight the Phantom. So much juicy hull for crits. And I think the generics need more time to experiment.

The rear arc of the Firespray is nice, make no doubt. But, to outright call it better than the white K-turn speaks to a lack of experience with the Firespray. A lot of times, if you are shooting out of the rear arc, it means you are heading away from the battle. And that will usually mean some tricky maneuvering to get back into the battle. Whereas the Defender, with the K-turn, will be facing the enemies for the follow up.

Make no mistake, the Firespray is a very good ship. But I wouldn't call it far and away better than the Defender. Especially since flying large ships is still a trick that may not fit with some people.

Great analysis. If it had green banks and/or a white 2 turn then it would fly differently. It's a very straight-line ship.

Interesting that the large base ship 2 turn is slightly tighter than a small base ship 3 turn.

It would be nice to a simultaneous graph showing the Firespray's rear arc and the Defender's "extended" arc with K-turn + barrel roll options. It looks like the Defender can potentially still cover a little more space, just not all at once, and at the cost of losing an action to the Barrel Roll, which is pretty big.

The firespray has great coverage. What it lacks is the ability to stay in the fight for an extended period of time. It's best case scenarin once it's used the rear arc is to 1 bank, 2 turn 2 turn to maintain maximum coverage and action economy. The Defender can K-turn from a lot of places. I think what the defender really needed was to have Boost and advanced sensors rather than barrel roll. That would have made it a fantastically unique ship. As is, it feels clunky...

I disagree. I have plenty of experience in flying Firesprays. I still need some time to learn the Defender. The dial takes some getting used to. I haven't experimented all that much, but Vessory and Rexlar both will have showings. Rexlar loves this phase, as people will bring Y-wings, Falcons, and Firesprays to fight the Phantom. So much juicy hull for crits. And I think the generics need more time to experiment.

Good luck getting through all those juicy shields to make use of Rexlar's ability. He's just like Maarek Stele.

You're right, OP. The Defender does seem like a worse option compared to the Firespray if you're going to spend that many points on a single ship. I don't know why FFG didn't at least include a beam weapon on the Defender to differentiate it.

BEAM WEAPONS!!! That's what would have made the Defender truly unique. I think FFG really missed an opportunity on that one. You could also include Beam Weapons on TIE Avenger, Assault Gunboat.

Beam Weapons are distinct from cannons.

Oh well.

/ done dreaming

Steak > Chocolate
obviously

They're different ships and you take the one that fits your squad. Until people let go of the old meta they'll continue to hate the defender and consider the phantom OP.

Considering how quickly VADER took down a Falcon's shields with Outmaneuver, I'm not worried too much about Rexlar's ability. Rexlar's ability is a finisher. Which makes Predator a somewhat fitting Elite Talent to put on it.

The Defender does not obsolete the Firespray. But on the other hand, the Firespray does not obsolete the Defender. Do not underestimate the differences the base size has on how they handle. In the end, I think it will come down to preference. I have three games with a Defender in. And all that showed is that I really need to play it more.

There's a few threads out there lately in which people are interested in benchmarking the TIE Defender against the Firespray.

This is unfair, because the TIE Defender is completely outclassed.

TL;DR: the only reasons you would ever reasonably choose a Defender over a Firespray:

i) you only have enough points for a Defender;

ii) you want a more effective blocker;

iii) aesthetic appeal;

iv) you want a cheaper ship dollar-wise;

v) you want a less easy-to-block ship.

All of these (except perhaps iii, because those Defenders are sexy lookers) can be satisfied with other ships, so this could also be titled "Anything the Defender can do something else can do better".

Sorry, but you're wrong. Of your points, (i) is a legitimate reason to take a Delta Squadron Pilot over a Bounty Hunter, and so is (ii) since the only more Imperial ship with barrel roll that even approaches the Defender's durability is the TIE Advanced. And, come to think of it, so is (v) for the same reason.

And there's also a (vi) that you didn't mention, which is that both Vessery and Brath have really solid pilot abilities, and their marginal cost in comparison to Delta Squadron is lower than the marginal cost of Kath and Fett in comparison to the Bounty Hunter.

I will not reiterate Major Juggler's MathWing results that tell you that the TIE Defender is one of the worst jousters in the game for its price. He's posted that several times already, I'm sure we're all familiar with it.

I've said previously, and I'll reiterate here, that I think his results do a very poor job of evaluating ships with a high base cost.

My personal thoughts? FFG made the sharp turns red because they were planning on giving the Defender the ability to use its short sharp turns like K-turns, e.g., have the option to flip around after completing them. They nixed the idea and then forgot to take the red off the dial, leaving us with a ship that does nothing to redefine the meta or even eke out a place where it belongs uncontested.

That doesn't make any sense at all. You really think that everyone on the design team, plus everyone on the playtest team, just forgot to make a fundamental change to the dial in response to pulling back the ship's maneuverability?

I pretty much reached the same conclusions as the OP's analysis since Defender's dial was revealed. I still think FFG staff were over-cautious with the white K-Turn and made the defender pay too much for that ability (both in cost and capabilities).

If the defender is flying supported with abilities from other ships, its performance improves, of course, but that principle applies to every other ship in the game. However, if it flies 'on its own' it hardly justifies its high cost and its bruteforced drawbacks.

Considering how quickly VADER took down a Falcon's shields with Outmaneuver, I'm not worried too much about Rexlar's ability. Rexlar's ability is a finisher. Which makes Predator a somewhat fitting Elite Talent to put on it.

The Defender does not obsolete the Firespray. But on the other hand, the Firespray does not obsolete the Defender. Do not underestimate the differences the base size has on how they handle. In the end, I think it will come down to preference. I have three games with a Defender in. And all that showed is that I really need to play it more.

Rexlar's ability is a finisher, sure. You just need to hope that no one focus fires on your Rexlar and blows him away in the first turn or two.

Predator would be a bit redundant on Rexlar. Consider this: His ability lets you spend a focus token to flip all the hits you put on an opponent's hull into being criticals. But you have to get those hits in the first place, and you can't spend a focus token to get those hits. So unless you're feeling particularly lucky, you need to get a second focus token onto Rexlar (impossible in an Imperial squad, unless I'm forgetting something) or give Rexlar a target lock to modify your dice. If you're already rerolling dice with a target lock, you don't need Predator.

shrug

If Krassis has taught me anything, often times, one reroll is enough. I don't see using Rexlar's ability more than once or twice a game. And that is okay, because the rest of the ship is nice and beefy enough.

Considering how quickly VADER took down a Falcon's shields with Outmaneuver, I'm not worried too much about Rexlar's ability. Rexlar's ability is a finisher. Which makes Predator a somewhat fitting Elite Talent to put on it.

The Defender does not obsolete the Firespray. But on the other hand, the Firespray does not obsolete the Defender. Do not underestimate the differences the base size has on how they handle. In the end, I think it will come down to preference. I have three games with a Defender in. And all that showed is that I really need to play it more.

Rexlar's ability is a finisher, sure. You just need to hope that no one focus fires on your Rexlar and blows him away in the first turn or two.

Predator would be a bit redundant on Rexlar. Consider this: His ability lets you spend a focus token to flip all the hits you put on an opponent's hull into being criticals. But you have to get those hits in the first place, and you can't spend a focus token to get those hits. So unless you're feeling particularly lucky, you need to get a second focus token onto Rexlar (impossible in an Imperial squad, unless I'm forgetting something) or give Rexlar a target lock to modify your dice. If you're already rerolling dice with a target lock, you don't need Predator.

shrug

If Krassis has taught me anything, often times, one reroll is enough. I don't see using Rexlar's ability more than once or twice a game. And that is okay, because the rest of the ship is nice and beefy enough.

He's also PS 8 and his ability is a clear hard counter to Chewie, who we might be seeing more of to counter phantoms. Interestingly, too, PS 8 base, 3 agility and 6 health, a white k-turn and his ability, make him a decent phantom counter as well.

shrug

If Krassis has taught me anything, often times, one reroll is enough. I don't see using Rexlar's ability more than once or twice a game. And that is okay, because the rest of the ship is nice and beefy enough.

He's also PS 8 and his ability is a clear hard counter to Chewie, who we might be seeing more of to counter phantoms. Interestingly, too, PS 8 base, 3 agility and 6 health, a white k-turn and his ability, make him a decent phantom counter as well.

There is one thing that psuedo rear arc can do that the actual rear arc of a firespray can't do, and i'm beginning to like it more and more as I play the defender and see it as a major selling point. And it's called HLC.

shrug

If Krassis has taught me anything, often times, one reroll is enough. I don't see using Rexlar's ability more than once or twice a game. And that is okay, because the rest of the ship is nice and beefy enough.

He's also PS 8 and his ability is a clear hard counter to Chewie, who we might be seeing more of to counter phantoms. Interestingly, too, PS 8 base, 3 agility and 6 health, a white k-turn and his ability, make him a decent phantom counter as well.

Hard counter to Chewie might be going too far. He negates chewies ability somewhat, but he can't just wipe the floor with Chewie, and any decent player will have 3PO and use him against you, making your crits a pretty slow damage process.

Ok, but a better way to put it would be a hard counter to Chewie's "ability," but Brath certainly has a higher damage potential on him than anyone else, and, as I mentioned, his high PS is going to be useful against phantoms as well.

All I know is that Rexlar's ability allowed him to finish off a Firespray when the range 1 shot yielded 1 crit and 2 hits. Flipped those 2 for the extra damage I needed to finish it off. Rexlar probably wouldn't have liked the return shot.

shrug

If Krassis has taught me anything, often times, one reroll is enough. I don't see using Rexlar's ability more than once or twice a game. And that is okay, because the rest of the ship is nice and beefy enough.

He's also PS 8 and his ability is a clear hard counter to Chewie, who we might be seeing more of to counter phantoms. Interestingly, too, PS 8 base, 3 agility and 6 health, a white k-turn and his ability, make him a decent phantom counter as well.

Hard counter to Chewie might be going too far. He negates chewies ability somewhat, but he can't just wipe the floor with Chewie, and any decent player will have 3PO and use him against you, making your crits a pretty slow damage process.

Any rich player. 3PO needs the corvette.

Predator would be a bit redundant on Rexlar. Consider this: His ability lets you spend a focus token to flip all the hits you put on an opponent's hull into being criticals. But you have to get those hits in the first place, and you can't spend a focus token to get those hits. So unless you're feeling particularly lucky, you need to get a second focus token onto Rexlar (impossible in an Imperial squad, unless I'm forgetting something) or give Rexlar a target lock to modify your dice. If you're already rerolling dice with a target lock, you don't need Predator.

Consider that you mentioned yourself that the Imperials can't grant a focus token, so he is focusing himself as his action. Flying on his own or supported by non-support ships (anything but a Lambda,) he has to have some way to midify the roll without using his focus token, and Predator gives him that, since his action will be to focus, not target lock.

shrug

If Krassis has taught me anything, often times, one reroll is enough. I don't see using Rexlar's ability more than once or twice a game. And that is okay, because the rest of the ship is nice and beefy enough.

He's also PS 8 and his ability is a clear hard counter to Chewie, who we might be seeing more of to counter phantoms. Interestingly, too, PS 8 base, 3 agility and 6 health, a white k-turn and his ability, make him a decent phantom counter as well.

Hard counter to Chewie might be going too far. He negates chewies ability somewhat, but he can't just wipe the floor with Chewie, and any decent player will have 3PO and use him against you, making your crits a pretty slow damage process.

Any rich player. 3PO needs the corvette.

Predator would be a bit redundant on Rexlar. Consider this: His ability lets you spend a focus token to flip all the hits you put on an opponent's hull into being criticals. But you have to get those hits in the first place, and you can't spend a focus token to get those hits. So unless you're feeling particularly lucky, you need to get a second focus token onto Rexlar (impossible in an Imperial squad, unless I'm forgetting something) or give Rexlar a target lock to modify your dice. If you're already rerolling dice with a target lock, you don't need Predator.

Consider that you mentioned yourself that the Imperials can't grant a focus token, so he is focusing himself as his action. Flying on his own or supported by non-support ships (anything but a Lambda,) he has to have some way to midify the roll without using his focus token, and Predator gives him that, since his action will be to focus, not target lock.

Yeah, you're right. Somehow I wasn't thinking about it correctly.

Predator would be a bit redundant on Rexlar. Consider this: His ability lets you spend a focus token to flip all the hits you put on an opponent's hull into being criticals. But you have to get those hits in the first place, and you can't spend a focus token to get those hits. So unless you're feeling particularly lucky, you need to get a second focus token onto Rexlar (impossible in an Imperial squad, unless I'm forgetting something) or give Rexlar a target lock to modify your dice. If you're already rerolling dice with a target lock, you don't need Predator.

Consider that you mentioned yourself that the Imperials can't grant a focus token, so he is focusing himself as his action. Flying on his own or supported by non-support ships (anything but a Lambda,) he has to have some way to midify the roll without using his focus token, and Predator gives him that, since his action will be to focus, not target lock.

Yeah, you're right. Somehow I wasn't thinking about it correctly.

Predator or Outmaneuver are interesting options on him, especially considering that it makes him more effective against 3PO.

My ideal situation with Brath would be to get a longer range TL and then move in for the kill with a focus.