If a supplement (adventure, sourcebook,...) contains maps or sketches like the one of the Wheel hangar deck, the GM may or may not use it (if he finds his creativity limited or constrained for example). By not including the maps...well there is no choice!

I too really dug the maps in the beginner boxes, and I would love to have nice ones like that for the published material. Since it's been stated by FFG that cost is an issue, so I would like to throw it out there that if FFG made additional map packs, I would buy them. Looking at several comparable map sellers (whose maps are great but the flavor isn't quite there for me) and it looks like the return on such a venture could be profitable.

[edit] I would still prefer the content digitally, and heck, I would even throw some money at that.

One of the problems with maps is that if you want Fantasy, medival, etc themed, there is a plethora of maps available. But if you want Sci-FI themed, you are hard pressed to find anything. Short of converting fanasty maps to sci-fi ones

Something like this would be adequate... I threw it all together a while back for another campaign.

"No, no guys, the torpedo magazines are behind the repulsor units! See??"

Why would anyone want this useless image taking up valuable space from the text? Please, keep maps out of the products unless it's absolutely vital to the story/adventure/setting.

The maps are always absolutely vital to the story/adventure/setting even when they are not especially relevant. Most of the time a location comes up one or more players are going to want to roll a knowledge skill to see what they know about an area. When they roll well enough (triumph) to know an area well and the GM can't tell them about it than either the players will think "Wow, I rolled a triumph and I still don't know what this are looks like. There must be something really top secret there. Lets go there first" or maybe "Lets not go there at all, anything that secret will be hightly guarded."

Players do not get to know what will be important ahead of time, so an adventure should contain enough details that when they roll well to know something unimportant the GM can tell them, withour revealing it is unimportant.

If the GM has to break character and tell them "That triumph you rolled means you know the layout, but I can't tell you what you know, because I don't know it, because the adventure does not tell me" will ruin the fun and the sense of verisimilitude. When I play a role playing game I want to get into the head of my chracter, not treat them like a pawn in a boardgame.

"No, no guys, the torpedo magazines are behind the repulsor units! See??"

Why would anyone want this useless image taking up valuable space from the text? Please, keep maps out of the products unless it's absolutely vital to the story/adventure/setting.

Arguments can be made either way, but a basic layout (doesn't have to be more than a fancy pencil sketch really) doesn't hurt. You can ignore information you have but don't need, but its a lot harder to make up info you need but don't have on the fly. CAN you do it? Yes. It's nice to have the option not to have to though. Seemingly inane information like knowing the boarding ramp is adjacent to the torpedo magazine comes in handy if you need to make up some repercussions for a fumbled thermal detonator toss when assaulting up said boarding ramp.

Like the scene from Aliens (shamelessly lifted from wikiquote )

Ripley : Lieutenant, what do those pulse-rifles fire?

Gorman : 10 millimeter explosive tip caseless. Standard light armor-piercing round. Why?

Ripley : Well, look where your team is. They're right under the primary heat exchangers.

Gorman : So?

Ripley : So... if they fire their weapons in there, won't they rupture the cooling system?

Burke : Whoa ho-ho... yeah, she's absolutely right.

Gorman : So? So what?

Burke : Look, this whole station is basically a big fusion reactor, right? So she's talking about a thermonuclear explosion and adios muchachos.

(Post edited for great justice. And formatting of the quote.)

The idea with the Acclamator sketch is the players had to investigate a derelict and later move around an active one. I didn't need to show any detail, which is why the entire ship was just 5 stories of colored labeled zones. It provided a clear mode of progression and allowed a clean transition from one scene and encounter to the next while also providing a "walled sandbox" for the players to move around in freely while maintaining the constancy and control I needed as a GM. I didn't have to worry about the derelict in Act I not lining up with the active ship that appeared in Act II because I forgot something, or misdescribed it.

Later in the same adventure they also searched a derelict Lucrehulk, but the encounter there didn't require them to go beyond the hangerbay so I made no maps except a simple on the fly sketch just to provide relative positioning when the encounter got interesting.

And that's the point. If the location is a non important time sink, or it's scale so large that the players won't hit every room, then no, I don't want or need a map, and If I do, I can generate it myself.

But if the location is important, and it's scale small enough that the players could, or are expected to, hit almost every room, and the way they can move through those rooms might matter, then yeah, give me something that shows what the heck you had in mind. I don't need anything pretty or detailed, and in this system I don't want it. But a picture is worth a thousand words.

Another good example would be the old Darkstryder campaign. The guidebook that comes with season I says whats in every room on every deck. So the full map of the ship doesn't seem all that necessary...

Arguments can be made either way, but a basic layout (doesn't have to be more than a fancy pencil sketch really) doesn't hurt. You can ignore information you have but don't need, but its a lot harder to make up info you need but don't have on the fly.

It hurts because I have to pay for pages of layout in a hardback book that would be put to better use being crammed with informative text, encounters, scenarios, or what have you.

Ship layouts and art and all that stuff should be available POD. It's simpler and cheaper for everybody.

Arguments can be made either way, but a basic layout (doesn't have to be more than a fancy pencil sketch really) doesn't hurt. You can ignore information you have but don't need, but its a lot harder to make up info you need but don't have on the fly.

It hurts because I have to pay for pages of layout in a hardback book that would be put to better use being crammed with informative text, encounters, scenarios, or what have you.

Ship layouts and art and all that stuff should be available POD. It's simpler and cheaper for everybody.

I'd be on board with that except.... then there's a risk of players going on and getting spoilers.

My current players wouldn't, but I've had ones (one in particular) in the past that would without hesitation.

Though I suppose you could get around this in enough cases though. A small box at the beginning or end of the book with the link saying where to DL it, and the description in the book having a small key so the actual full sized map could be left largely blank. Would actually make the maps useful beyond just the official material.

I wonder if the license would allow such a thing... it could certainly be seen as a "promotional material" from a certain point of view...

Arguments can be made either way, but a basic layout (doesn't have to be more than a fancy pencil sketch really) doesn't hurt. You can ignore information you have but don't need, but its a lot harder to make up info you need but don't have on the fly.

It hurts because I have to pay for pages of layout in a hardback book that would be put to better use being crammed with informative text, encounters, scenarios, or what have you.

Ship layouts and art and all that stuff should be available POD. It's simpler and cheaper for everybody.

Well, that's a valid opinion. I believe we'll have to agree to disagree, though. I rarely find adventure books to be 'crammed with informative text' exclusively... there tends to be a lot of rather vague and somewhat useless pseudo-description. In this case I'm not singling out the EotE stuff, its just a general thing with adventure books. Some of the text is good, but a lot of it just seems designed to fill a page.

All that said, the more info the better, be it text or diagram. "Relevant" information should definitely take priority over "fluff art", I'll agree there, but as far as deck plans for important ships/maps for important locations go, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of having to go to a separate resource to get information that should have rightfully been in the book to start with though.

What I'd prefer is if they made some of the fantastic art available without the text overlay. The pictures in BtR are great and could be inspiring for the players to look at, but you can't show them without clumsily obscuring parts of the pages. There should be art handouts in the back of every book.

In the downloadable adventures (Long arm of the Hutt and Operation: Shadowpoint), I have opened the map pages in Photoshop and masked out the spoiler text...then blew them up to 11x17 to print as large-ish handouts that we can then put figures/tokens on to show relative positions of PCs NPCs. For BtR, I scanned the station and camp maps and did the same thing....

That being said, I realize I have access to tools and software that not everyone else has access to...so this solution wouldn't work for everyone.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of having to go to a separate resource to get information that should have rightfully been in the book to start with though.

Why "rightfully"? The big picture view is that a) fewer people play RPGs; b) classical publishing is a time-consuming and inefficient method of media dissemination; c) publishers of other games are moving/have moved to a PoD/PDF model to save costs; d) competition for gamer $ is strong. These are economic realities, and personally I'd like to see FFG and this game last a long time.

A ship layout is probably the least efficient and broadly useful thing to include in a published work, so they "rightfully" should not include them. But a POD model avoids those issues, and there might not even have to be upfront investment if the artist gets a cut of the POD profits.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of having to go to a separate resource to get information that should have rightfully been in the book to start with though.

Why "rightfully"? The big picture view is that a) fewer people play RPGs; b) classical publishing is a time-consuming and inefficient method of media dissemination; c) publishers of other games are moving/have moved to a PoD/PDF model to save costs; d) competition for gamer $ is strong. These are economic realities, and personally I'd like to see FFG and this game last a long time.

A ship layout is probably the least efficient and broadly useful thing to include in a published work, so they "rightfully" should not include them. But a POD model avoids those issues, and there might not even have to be upfront investment if the artist gets a cut of the POD profits.

Some generic 'adapt to your campaign' products with maybe a suggestion or two in regards to some published adventures could be a good approach. No need to slow development on a specific project or supplement, just offer them as add on stuff. Of course I still go back to the issue of with the breadth of stuff freely available on the internet I don't know if there is money to be made doing it. FFG does real good quality though so if it was high end stuff that looked real nice, maybe.

I'm not sure if I like the idea of having to go to a separate resource to get information that should have rightfully been in the book to start with though.

Why "rightfully"? The big picture view is that a) fewer people play RPGs; b) classical publishing is a time-consuming and inefficient method of media dissemination; c) publishers of other games are moving/have moved to a PoD/PDF model to save costs; d) competition for gamer $ is strong. These are economic realities, and personally I'd like to see FFG and this game last a long time.

A ship layout is probably the least efficient and broadly useful thing to include in a published work, so they "rightfully" should not include them. But a POD model avoids those issues, and there might not even have to be upfront investment if the artist gets a cut of the POD profits.

Some generic 'adapt to your campaign' products with maybe a suggestion or two in regards to some published adventures could be a good approach. No need to slow development on a specific project or supplement, just offer them as add on stuff. Of course I still go back to the issue of with the breadth of stuff freely available on the internet I don't know if there is money to be made doing it. FFG does real good quality though so if it was high end stuff that looked real nice, maybe.

Like "Critical Locations" from the D20 modern line?

I'm not sure if I like the idea of having to go to a separate resource to get information that should have rightfully been in the book to start with though.

Why "rightfully"? The big picture view is that a) fewer people play RPGs; b) classical publishing is a time-consuming and inefficient method of media dissemination; c) publishers of other games are moving/have moved to a PoD/PDF model to save costs; d) competition for gamer $ is strong. These are economic realities, and personally I'd like to see FFG and this game last a long time.

A ship layout is probably the least efficient and broadly useful thing to include in a published work, so they "rightfully" should not include them. But a POD model avoids those issues, and there might not even have to be upfront investment if the artist gets a cut of the POD profits.

Some generic 'adapt to your campaign' products with maybe a suggestion or two in regards to some published adventures could be a good approach. No need to slow development on a specific project or supplement, just offer them as add on stuff. Of course I still go back to the issue of with the breadth of stuff freely available on the internet I don't know if there is money to be made doing it. FFG does real good quality though so if it was high end stuff that looked real nice, maybe.

Like "Critical Locations" from the D20 modern line?

Yah, just generic stuff. It could look Star Warsy and not have any proper names attached to it.

for those interested in maps

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mapmaker/distant-outposts-a-sci-fi-poster-map-set?ref=discovery

http://www.cartographersguild.com/content/section/113-cartographers-choice.html

Most stuff on here is more fantasy related but there are some modern options. I have to tell you the fantasy options if you print them off poster sized are better than anything you have ever seen in a RPG.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mapmaker/distant-outposts-a-sci-fi-poster-map-set

a recent kickstarter by Maps of Mystery that has a space station

oooooooooOOOOOO

As great as that looks, I'd never be able to actually use it. Too much terrain, doesn't allow any flexibility.

I just think that the choice of language in this post was overly caustic.

I was caught in a heated moment!

May be it was not the best way to express my disappointment but I had to say it. Let me explain myself a bit better.

In Warhammer 3 (from FFG) we had maps, not many, not big, but some maps. We complained often on the forums that we would appreciate to have bigger maps or more maps. Just for the evocative, the visual content. Many players like to look at them! I still remember when I was GMing Warhammer 1st ed the Enemy Within, campaign and I unfolded over the table the map of Castle Wittenstein, it was a Woooow!! moment.

When I got my hands on the EotE beginners game and I saw all those maps... I dreamt.

I think the Warhammer maps actually demonstrate some of the problems maps present. Yes, it was nice to have them... but not all that nice. Why? Because they were vague. You mention the fact that people complained on the forums about the maps... and boy did they. Most of the WFRP maps were little more than a couple of place names on an almost blank page. This is because A) maps are expensive and B) time constraints. Put too much detail into the map and you're liable to get something wrong, leaving the line developer with the choice of including a bad map or else ordering a corrected one (which will inevitably delay the release and add to the cost).

There are occasions, such as the beginners set, where the company goes to the trouble of producing a map. With the beginners set they also probably had the time to spare to get it right, as the writing was probably finished long before the release date. That isn't the case with most supplements, which tend to be made on a tight schedule.

And, of course, there's the fact that maps take up precious, precious space. Word count on these books is very tight. Some have suggested that FFG should include two versions of a map - one with all the details (for the GM) and a player's version. How much of the adventure should be cut for that?

And finally, there's the fact that they are not really necessary. Sure, some players like them - but as demonstrated by this thread, that isn't universal. A map is a major potential complication in the creation of an adventure, adding to the cost, taking up space and quite likely to delay the project - all to make a few customers slightly happier.Which is why FFG have determined they are more trouble than they are worth.