Part of the problem that Sam Stewrt talked about as I recall. Is say you are a GM and you go to a planet and you create a map and with where everything is and them FFG comes out with a map for the same area and it is different. Now you have left the GM with a problem they have to decide how to solve. Far better to leave the mapping in the hands of the GM where they can make them to suit their needs.


and really we have plenty of maps available on the need for free or low cost. Why do we need to get them specifically from FFG?

i love maps, but understand where FFG is coming from in their approach. they put maps into the Beginner's Game in order to transition players into the game style of EotE as easily as possible -- but this includes GMs as well. EotE is the 2nd rpg that I have run as a GM and the maps helped me lessen the prep time for jumping in with the rest of my players into the universe. now that we are running a completely original campaign in EotE, i find that i'm just making a quick sketch at the table for the players to understand "where" they are without supplying them with the details. this has helped us to create these environments on the fly, which i believe is the intention of FFG's design and allows for us to create fun encounters as my pcs are able to come up with those details themselves to flesh out their actions in fun and surprising ways. i think the element of surprise, the wow factor of someone creating something completely original and unexpected in the moment to occur is the greatest trait of FFG's system.

maps do help for visualization at the table, but no matter how the map is made, it will be too detailed for any party that uses it. what i mean is that whether you admit it or not, you end up relying on the map for what you can or can't do in an encounter. i remember when i ran Long Arm of the Hutt and had the map for the cave before me that I couldn't share with the PCs as it exposed spoilers for the encounter. i felt that trying to describe this map then to my characters was slowing us down, as descriptions of what i was looking at were not being understood in explanation and i was having to reiterate details, clarify them, and it was frustrating. after a couple of minutes of that i said f*** it and threw it out. instead i said that you're here, they're over here at this range in front of a cave, no go. we were using the tokens still on a bare table top and my pcs began adding in objects that they were taking cover behind, not having to worry whether it was drawn there or not because it existed in each of our minds. this i believe is the intention of FFG's system. in the end the maps for a location were a drawback.

on the other hand, i would enjoy some maps of a planetary scale or city scale. having the much larger scale allows for the visual tool that draws pcs in, without providing them the personal scale details that i believe they could provide much on their own. maps of this sort could help us set the mood, atmosphere, and general layout of these iconic worlds and cities. the cloud city map works in this regard for JoY. on the other hand, i truly am dissatisfied with the layout of the museum in that same adventure and think that it seems more like a gallery. the museum could be done in a much grander scale with multiple levels -- hence, my opinion that FFG is correct to limit their uses of these location maps that make encounters too specific.

i don't think that FFG is being lazy by not including these in their adventures, i think they just don't want to make a lot materials for adventures only to have those materials thrown out by gm's for these reasons. if they can describe the scene for you in text in a manner that truly inspires your imagination, then i think they are providing you with a much better resource for your encounters rather than making a nice object for you to use once and discard -- remember, these location maps are not modular. better for a gm to quickly sketch one out on the fly than have this costly to produce map be used to serve the exact same function and be useless at the end of the encounter.

but if you like maps, find some resources online (and please remember to ask the artists for permission or credit them at your sessions -- which is usually all they'd want) or make your own. don't call FFG lazy for not doing the work for you. that was their business or design decision which, if you've held any of these books in your hands, comes with a obvious amount of thought.

myself, i'm currently toying with the idea of making modular paper craft walls that i could throw down for the figures my players use for visualization, just to build the boundaries of the encounter while avoiding the nitty-gritty details.

I agree somewhat on using maps, especially with a place that needed to be explored, such as the Sa Nalor, but I would argue that some very good points could be made not to include a map.

First, the Sa Nalor was a capital class ship. It was big, had several floors, and an attempt to map it could easily have caused more trouble than it was worth.

Second, the objective isn't to completely map out the Sa Nalor. It's to examine it and try to get some clues until the survivors show up. There really isn't one section of the ship that the PCs need to get to, and there definitely isn't a finish line where treasure is buried. I can admit that if there had been a map the layout of the Sa Nalor would have been less confusing, but by not including a map it gives freer reign to the GM to describe the state of the ship and the location of certain sections, which means that exploring the wreckage of the ship can take as long or as short a time as the GM wants.

To sum up--the Sa Nalor isn't a dungeon crawl. It's not even the main part of the adventure. It's a bridge to get the PCs to their ultimate destination.

I fully agree with that sentiment Hysteria. Mapping out the Sa Nalaor would have complicated things unnecessarily...

A capital ship of that size mapped would have been huge and would have made the characters spend waaaaayyy to much time in its innerts.

At first I would have liked a map of the retreat but came to find that it was completely unnecessary for my players to have one. The moved around the Retreat with ease and from the description I gave had a pretty good picture of what it looked like.

Listening to that I think the problem is that they need to be willing to back off from the fully illustrated ultra detailed maps that people are used to from the less flexible systems that shall not be named, and back to just the simple floor plans and sketch maps of the old days.

This. Black and white line art or sketches would be cool. I wouldn't think it wouldn't be too hard, costly, or time consuming to produce. Make them on loose leaf paper, or at the back of the book, for ease of showing the players. Square maps aren't used, so the EotE maps don't need to be extreamly percise. Just close enough to give a visual to the players.

On the one hand, I think it's a good thing that FFG has generally stayed away from map-making, especially in the context of things like Sons of Fortune, mapping out a whole city on a well-known planet, and such. I agree with those who have said that they intentionally designed their system to allow a lot of flexibility for both players and GMs, and have gotten away from the tactical-combat grid-type maps. This is good, and I applaud FFG for it.

On the other hand, for the printed adventures, I think when a group decides to run one of them, they're saying to the publisher that they want a good number of details made for them. If you're on a homebrew adventure, great! Make up everything, and have lots of fun. But when you're purchasing a premade adventure, the whole point is to lessen prep time and the need to make your own stuff up, for whatever reason made you buy the adventure instead of creating one on your own. Also, the adventure has certain expectations of how/where things will be and potential consequences of going off-script that may be problematic in not jiving with other bits of the adventure later on.

So for published adventures, the idea of "just make up your own stuff" seems to go against the main point of buying and running a published adventure.

Sam gave more of a general answer about art and maps and such in this last podcast. Bottom line is it sounds like they always have more material than they have pages so if they include more pictures of any kind, content gets left out. It sounds like they are on a rigid budget and a strict page count.

Sam gave more of a general answer about art and maps and such in this last podcast. Bottom line is it sounds like they always have more material than they have pages so if they include more pictures of any kind, content gets left out. It sounds like they are on a rigid budget and a strict page count.

I wonder if they couldn't produce a "print on demand" artwork/handout offering. That wouldn't cost them anything, they only print what they get paid for.

Sam gave more of a general answer about art and maps and such in this last podcast. Bottom line is it sounds like they always have more material than they have pages so if they include more pictures of any kind, content gets left out. It sounds like they are on a rigid budget and a strict page count.

I wonder if they couldn't produce a "print on demand" artwork/handout offering. That wouldn't cost them anything, they only print what they get paid for.

There's still a considerable cost AND time factor involved in making art.

The way Stewart described it, a piece of artwork can take 3-4 months to get locked down. An artist probably has to submit sketches, FFG has to consult with Lucasfilm on it, FFG has to pay Zoe the the art director for her time, they have to pay the artists for their work, go through multiple layers of revisions on a piece of artwork.

And I imagine it's even more complicated with maps, where the details matter a lot.

So I guess they'd have to consider it to be a worthwhile part of their strategy to do it.

Dealing with art is definitely time consuming, costly, and a pain. I get that part. I still think there's room for player/GM aides here and there. Concerning maps, it's not necessarily as black and white as some of you describe. Map doesn't necessarily have to equal Super Detail. One of the reasons I brought up The Gathering Storm earlier is because there's a fantastic general map that can be handed out or downloaded to help the players digest a rather large area of land. It's got some basics but also leaves a great bit of room for a GM to add his or her own thing. Ultimately, if it can be produced in a cost effective manner, having an available resource that you can then decide to use or not use provides more flexibility than having no resources and a set path for environment presentation.

Sam gave more of a general answer about art and maps and such in this last podcast. Bottom line is it sounds like they always have more material than they have pages so if they include more pictures of any kind, content gets left out. It sounds like they are on a rigid budget and a strict page count.

I wonder if they couldn't produce a "print on demand" artwork/handout offering. That wouldn't cost them anything, they only print what they get paid for.

[...] FFG has to consult with Lucasfilm on it [...]

I think this part right here might be a bigger fact than we might think. Who knows how strict they are. Based on past appearances, Sam gives me the impression that they are easy going about everything, but he may just be saying that.

I wonder if they couldn't produce a "print on demand" artwork/handout offering. That wouldn't cost them anything, they only print what they get paid for.

There's still a considerable cost AND time factor involved in making art.

What I meant was, why couldn't they offer the art they already chose for the book as a POD collection? Then they could even include stuff that was created but didn't get in the book.

I prefer the flexibility of just creating and describing what I need for my group. I didn't even use of show them the maps from BtR. As for the beginners game the only map that saw use was Mos Shuuta and it was just pinned to the wall and was not really used other than to set the scene

And some would prefer having something more concrete to describe the surroundings, environment, and relative position of elements in the scene. It's not like you would have to use the maps if they added a couple; you could continue playing completely without them. Also I will point out that you said you did like having the flexibility of having the map to use it to set the scene

I don't think anyone is asking for multiple poster-sized maps detailing every possible place the PCs could go in an adventure; just a couple more maps to give some idea of where things are located on the Wheel, what the general layout of the Sa Nalaor is, a 'general village' map that we could use for the Retreat, etc. Some people (including me) would find that sort of thing useful.

Oh, I don't begrudge other people wanting maps and if FFG decide to invest in maps I won't complain about having to pay for something I don't need in my product. However, calling the designers lazy when their work clearly indicates anything but that, is unfair. I've read Yepes on these forums and the WFRP3 forums for years and value his contributions. I just think that the choice of language in this post was overly caustic.

I just think that the choice of language in this post was overly caustic.

I was caught in a heated moment!

May be it was not the best way to express my disappointment but I had to say it. Let me explain myself a bit better.

In Warhammer 3 (from FFG) we had maps, not many, not big, but some maps. We complained often on the forums that we would appreciate to have bigger maps or more maps. Just for the evocative, the visual content. Many players like to look at them! I still remember when I was GMing Warhammer 1st ed the Enemy Within, campaign and I unfolded over the table the map of Castle Wittenstein, it was a Woooow!! moment.

When I got my hands on the EotE beginners game and I saw all those maps... I dreamt.

Well I have been poking Sam with a stick to give us a straight artbook everytime he is on Order 66 I shall not be stopped. As for the maps well there is the excellent map maker cartographer out there as was previously mentioned. However who knows if they will not take a page from Catalyst Game Labs and provide us with a book solely dedicated to maps and giving us brief descriptions of them.

I just don't see them bothering. There is too much stuff freely available on the internet to be adapted easily. Here's a cruise ship deck plan that really gives no hint of it being maritime. This could easily represent a passenger ship or troop transport or whatever in the game. A little text chopping and inserting with Paint and it would be more than adequate. I'd just as soon they use bookspace for actual content in the form of modular encounters, gear, rules, etc.

In the case of generic settings like a cruise liner you've got no argument (stealing that btw). I can toss together an effective map when needed pretty fast. I once relabeled a map of Purdue (I think) into the Imperial Academy on Carida in a few minutes. Worked fantastic.

But when you've got a situation where you're running a canned adventure and the players need to explore a temple, or shipwreck, having even the simplest of floor plans to show how the encounters/rooms are expected to connect to each other can be really really important.

I don't want sourcebooks filled with maps of every city and town and continent (in fact I really really like the simple planetary datasheets they've got right now). But for canned adventures and the like where I'm trying to comprehend what some other author is telling me, ya gotta throw me a bone.

It's been pointed out though the exploring of the wreck was a time sink. What they look at and where they go inside it really had no bearing on the adventure. The specifics of what room or what corridor were irrelevant. So if the specifics were irrelevant, why would they take the time and money to include something with specifics?

The SaNalaor was supposed to be a dark dreary set of dilapidated corridors, 4 way corridor intersection after 4 way, with holes in the floors and signs of crash damage. Think Aliens interior with interior damage. Same goes for the camp, the specifics on the layout of the camp aren't really all that relevant to the flow of the game or the story. It's a improvised fortification at the base of a bluff, think Road Warrior type of a look at up against a cliff in the jungle.

The flip side if there is a specific secret door that must be located, or the view of a site from the air gives a clue ala a StoneHenge kind of layout, or it's a more tactical exercise on where to approach makes a difference I would expect specifics in the form of some graphics.

I just don't expect them to spend the money to include a map or floorplan whose details are irrelevant.

I agree with you 2P51, by including maps of areas that were quickly went through for the published adventure would be a huge waste of resources and page space. For every picture, that is less text you have available.

I remember reading here on the forums people bitching about not having a full map of The Wheel. Like really? So do you want a map book or an adventure? While maps are great, having one for the wrecked Sa Nalor would be a waste in my opinion, and apparently the publishers too.

When I ran the adventure I really tried to convey the wrecked feeling, trying to describe how the floors were buckled, holes in them, areas of hallways smashed together. The PCs had to carefully navigate a way through the wreckage, not just walk down a dark hall. They were inside an old rusted out, twisted wreck. Having a "deck plan" of that was needless. But I guess that is just being lazy. Now about using words and descriptors in the adventures, telling a story, instead of just showing a picture? That is what I call being lazy. Sorry, I don't mean to be snarky, well just as snarky as the original post.

My group spent about 2 sessions in that ship. They turned it into an amazing dungeon experience. Some of you didn't see the setpiece in the same light. Fantastic. Point being, one person's trash is another's treasure. The next time you want something out of the product line I'll just point to Google /s

Also, Yepes has a weird way with words. He doesn't mean those things the way most of us ******* Americans mean those things. Most of the time, at any rate. I think "perceived lack of interest or effort" is the proper translation there. I've been working on my Yepeneese since our Warhammer days and almost have it figured out. Updating protocol droids as necessary. As you were.

On the one hand, I think it's a good thing that FFG has generally stayed away from map-making, especially in the context of things like Sons of Fortune, mapping out a whole city on a well-known planet, and such. I agree with those who have said that they intentionally designed their system to allow a lot of flexibility for both players and GMs, and have gotten away from the tactical-combat grid-type maps. This is good, and I applaud FFG for it.

On the other hand, for the printed adventures, I think when a group decides to run one of them, they're saying to the publisher that they want a good number of details made for them. If you're on a homebrew adventure, great! Make up everything, and have lots of fun. But when you're purchasing a premade adventure, the whole point is to lessen prep time and the need to make your own stuff up, for whatever reason made you buy the adventure instead of creating one on your own. Also, the adventure has certain expectations of how/where things will be and potential consequences of going off-script that may be problematic in not jiving with other bits of the adventure later on.

So for published adventures, the idea of "just make up your own stuff" seems to go against the main point of buying and running a published adventure.

FFG also understands that a lot of GMs use the published adventures as jumping off points for their own original campaigns. they refer to GMs expanding on elements in the adventures as well as editing them down to something that works better for a shorter session. i think that their general stance has been and will continue to be to provide as much description within their books as possible, pair it with some illustrative detail for characters and mood, and then let the GM and players provide the rest. the small maps seem to appear when there is a specific requirement like the guard patrols in JoY, or how they ships wreckage influences how the players travel through the jungle. overall, i'm just really satisfied by what FFG provides -- so much so that i always am left wanting MORE!!! they need to announce another supplement soon. i would love to get a new one each month.

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I think it would be really nice for FF to put out a book of generic maps, ships, and other useful things.

A book(or better a PDF) of a collection of the floorplans of various generic buildings. Prefab housing units, military bases, loading platforms, hotels, ruined buildings, starports, generic towns or cities, etc...

Deck plans of some common ships as well as some generic ones.

Things a GM could print out in a large map or just use as inspiration.

I know other people make these things, but it would be nice to have it all in one conveniant package.

There's still a considerable cost AND time factor involved in making art.

Fair enough, but all the art that actually goes into the books could be reproduced without the surrounding material. A map of the ship might or might not be all that useful, but it could be really nice to let people see a picture of the ship — one that doesn’t have all the plot spoilers written all over it, like was actually published in the book.

So, give us two copies of each major piece of artwork — one for the GM with all the spoilers written all over it, as they do now. And a second copy of the artwork that is "clean" and can be shown to the players to help them understand better what is in front of them.

That second copy could be POD — maybe cards, or a booklet kind of like the mini adventures that are published with the GM screens, etc….

I just don't see them bothering. There is too much stuff freely available on the internet to be adapted easily. Here's a cruise ship deck plan that really gives no hint of it being maritime. This could easily represent a passenger ship or troop transport or whatever in the game. A little text chopping and inserting with Paint and it would be more than adequate. I'd just as soon they use bookspace for actual content in the form of modular encounters, gear, rules, etc.

That ship is docked 100 feet from my home every other week or so every summer! So funny you chose that one!