We haven't had one of these in GenD in a while, so why not?

The newest set gives us five new Death characters, which means lots of new support for the symbol. How do you think this has affected Death's playability as a symbol, be it for better or for worse? What do you think of the new characters, and what sort of impact do you think the new tools have on the old ones?

Something that Scott mentioned in the podcast today: who'd have ever thought that Death would have so much competition for the coveted attack slots? There's so many good attacks that it's very hard to choose.

Discuss!

I was looking on THD for 6-damage-or-less, 3-check throws to use with Padma, and I noticed that Death far outstrips Chaos and Water (her other two symbols) in that regard. It has both more and better throws than the other two. Ragnar/Rashotep/Tira have rocketed Death's attack base into at least mid-tier, and could be top-tier when piloted by Promo Blanka.

Foundation-wise I'm not sure that Death has quite gained enough ground, though I like Nightmare's concept of control through simplifying the game, reducing the number of foundations on both sides to limit your opponent's options.

Besides my upcoming dual symbol Padma deck I've never actually played Death, so I'm sure I've missed something.

I think death is very good these days. I feel that death agro is the way to go. maybe zi mei or tira. blanka is nice with minuet dance, but i think he may be better with fire.

Death's sheer attack lineup is absolutely crazy right now. there are a lot of options you can do here, you can go with the midnight launcher/knightbreaker combo fronted with any number of mid attacks, such as Tsurani Kiri, Shredding Vibrato, Senkyutai, Ichi no Tachi, or any slew of the other good death attacks now that happen to be mid. There's also Blanka + Menuett Dance, and probably a rise of death Donovans as well.

Character lineup there is a lot going for the symbol as well; Promo Blanka, Donovan, Zi Mei, Promo Morrigan, Rashotep, Promo 'Gief (with menutt dance. mmm.), Remy, etc.

Foundation base, there is still a decent bit going for it, it just didn't get a whole lot of support in that department this past set, but it was always more the attack lineup that was death's problem.

Well, it's the only symbol that has access to that lovely trinity of No Memories - Inhuman Perception - Oral Dead, so that's always a good start.

Although I still remain situated that Donovan is the leader of Death, Blanka gives him competition, with the ability to play both Curse of Immortality and Menuett Dance much easier. They both have their pros, so we'll see in time.

I've never been a huge fan of Death, but it's certainly more fun this block around. I still enjoy my aggro Zi Mei, but Zi Mei's never had the bang in this game I think we'd want her to =/

Shredding Vibrato + Tsurane Kiri/Ragnar/Hugo support is just ungodly.

Donovan has new throws, each with their own perks {Nile Throw for +5 cards and 4diff, Sandstorm with anti-Tag Along all over it, Crushing Embrace with Desperation:4 and a fairly big damage number, Dark Bite with momentum hate}. Plus the old standby Mega Spike, could be fairly strong

Death now has an absolutely fantastic lineup of utility or just dual-purpose attacks; Ichi No Tachi, Tsuji Hayate, Knight Breaker, Tsurane Kiri, various throws (I guess they really only do 1 thing, but they always work :b), Dhalsim's Crouching Roundhouse, Monster Lariat, Great Gerdy, Bison's Fierce Punch (+Nightmare gear), Shadow Blade, Zhao's Poison Touch, Shield Breaker, Two Deadly Rings Technique, Soul of the Beast (lol All Life is Prey), Harrier Bee...

And not to mention the pile of no-frills attacks Death just got from this last set, which is basically all of Ragnar's support, plus Leg Slash {so good}, Upper Claw, Rising Rage Flash, Soul Smasher, Might Knee Strike, Swing Kick (basically 2/3 +0L 3L3)

It's hot stuff. I'm a wee bit iffy on the foundation base, and a LOT of the really good cards seem to demand you go all-out and accept a loss if you fail to win in 1 turn (stuff like Saikyo, Alluring Beauty, all of the abilities that cost vitality or force you to destroy foundations). So Death has got its flavor back, either you die or I do :]

As I said in Shinji's character thread, Blanka is seriously beast off of Death.

Death has fleshed out as such: In Block 1, it was the overall strongest symbol when you average everything together. Evil had a better attack lineup late in Block 1's existence.

Once rotation hit, all of Death's attacks just disappeared. Death couldn't kill Leona if its life (or...death?) depended on it. On top of that, most of Death's foundations checked a 4, and all of it's worthwhile attacks checked a two. Death didn't have much going for it. Death's foundation base was easily in the top IF you were only looking at what the cards did. Once you see the CC/Diff. ratios, though, even God would cry.

We now come to Block 3. Here is what Death has, on the attack side:

Menuett Dance (Use it with Blanka. Tell me it isn't good. go on. I dare you).
Midnight Launcher
Crushing Embrace of the Jotun (The best throw in this set, imo)
Knight Breaker
Ichi no Winchi (Yeah, I really just said that)
Mega Spike
Tsurane Kiri
And so much more.

I basically just listed the best Death had to offer on only the attack side.

Right now, Death and Evil are back to how they were in Block 1 in relation to one another. The entire base of a Death and Evil deck can be ALMOST interchangeable, but each has something important the other symbol doesn't. Death gets Inhuman Perception. Evil gets BRT. Death has Destiny and Saikyo. Evil has Red Lotus.

That being said, when you look at some of the key cards to a Death deck, a lot of them cost cards being discarded from your hand. Therefore, I basically see Death as a symbol that needs to be fronted by either a 7handsizer, or someone who's got a REALLLLLLLLLLLLY good ability that allows the deck to tank. You're kidding yourself if you don't involve at the very least Saikyo and Inhuman in ANY death deck.

The issue we had during our stale unofficial Block 3 rotation was that all the characters that Death had had better symbols. Donovan was definitely it's best character, but hell, who wasn't running him off of Order? Now, with the power of Order reduced a substantial amount, you'll be seeing a lot less Donovan decks out there off the Order symbol, and a lot more off Death/Water (go take a look at all the yummies that they share)

Death's foundation base actually improved from Block 2. It kept No Memories, it lost a lot of 4 checks that were necessary, but replaced it with a whole bunch of 5 checks that do the job just as well if not better than what Death did have.

The reason why I think Blanka is among Death's best options, next to the fact that he can make Menuett Dance playable off the symbol, is that he's got the big handsize a Death deck needs. He's also good with The Curse of Immortality, a card that had very little use before his conception. As surprising as it might sound, I wouldn't recommend Knight Breaker for a Blanka deck since Menuett is going to clog your pool up and then you need to do a lot of work to get the combo pieces in the right order, which is really not worth it. Something like Menuett, Midnight Launcher, Ichi, and Mega Spike seems to me to be a good attack lineup for something like that.

HolyDragonCloud said:

Sure, both decks will play Oral Dead, Manifest Destiny, Charismatic, Revenant's Calling {although Death might cut it because of the hand-stretching it would require}. But there's a pile of strong cards that don't share both symbols. Maybe you can reach 60 cards with 90% dual-symbol, but that deck won't be as good as one that indulges in a bigger splash in one or the other... or goes like 60% dual, 15% Death 25% Evil

I think it would be remiss of us to not mention 2.Yang in this discussion. Built Death/Fire, he can be a BEAST, as he can run the Reverse Flayer -> Midnight Launcher -> Knight Breaker combo. Senkyutai + Cobra Blow is still a deadly combo as well. What makes Yang so good isn't just his ability to give Speed Boost to every attack he plays, rather his ability to negate any kind of damage redux his opponent may play. This means saying no to such cards as Rejection, Holding Ground, Healer, Fight or Flight...etc...etc...

I will be very surprised if Yang doesn't at the very least make a Top 8 finish at a Regional event - ANY Regional event he's played; he's that good, imo.

I've been tossing around the idea of death Zi Mei recently; it *might* be better than an evil build despite the loss of one-card powerhouses like BRT and Bitter Rivals... For one, Zi Mei's biggest problem is Tag Along. Evil's only answers are KFT or to BRT it. Neither one is particularly exciting, since KFT requires a huge 2 foundation commit, and BRT is something you'd rather use towards other ends and will almost always be the first target for any foundation hate they have available so you can't really count on it being available. On the other hand, death has Inhuman Perception and Saikyo-Ryu, which are much better tuned for the job. Plus, it spams foundations better with Cursed Blood over Anti-K and the addition of a good 0-diff in Saikyo; and Zi Mei needs her foundations both for her R and to make Fury that much less suicidal. Oral Dead is a downgrade from Lotus, but Perfect Sense of Balance provides some support there. No Mems is a bit weaker than Chester's but certainly nothing to complain about... it's worth trying if nothing else.

Perfect Sense of Balance is total beast.

I tried a Death/Fire Zi Mei (I think it was really mono-Death, but it had lots of Fire cards too) right when the set hit, with Unstoppable Warriors, Bounce Back, the whole 9 yards, and it got wrecked in virtually every game . Even when they didn't have Tag Along, it just couldn't push the damage through well enough, and this wasn't even against Earth or Water or Good tank decks.

Blah...I don't like Zi Mei because she doesn't work as brokenly as I thought. When I read she could tap ANYTHING at just a foundation commit AND give free damage pumps, I instantly thought top tier. And she's doing OK...but not nearly as well as I'd have thought. I think her biggest problem is that, while her R is amazing, it's an investment that requires more thinking than one might originally perceive.

Still, I like my Death Zi Mei that uses Looking for Peace. Mind Over Matter is also serious boss.

Guys I heard before that somone ( Cannot rember who) said death had no good non infinty 6 Checks.

I respond End it all?

Anywho I like death and, honestly, belive Ragnar and Blanka could make it aggro again.

gosh Timmy's with Ragnar

Zhao Daiyu is death and has what might be the best attack in the game. Just saying.

I know alot of people are saying you need to be 7 hs to pilot, and normally I would agree, however there are a few notable characters with death in the 6hs realm who are really on the cusp for versios reasons. Biggest one being Victor, and not for stats but just because of reanimated abuse. It really is very strong. Night terror and nightmare both seem to be VERY strong on face value, even at 6 HS. There are a slew of guys on the symbol that can easly go crazy with just the realse of one card that fully utilizes thier potential, such as promo dhalsim.

There will be another set before gencon, Im wondering what will hit for death there?

Protoaddict said:

Nina ought to have Death. She IS an assassin and all...

And Kyo's flashy stuff all has to do with Fire. And yet? =P

End it All is nice and all, but I wouldn't recommend it. The First Form part hurts. If it gets negated, tough stuff. If by some chance you can't pull the kill out on your turn, you're left without responses once your opponent's turn hits. Lesser of Many Evils is just far safer than it.

That being said. Evil didn't have any non-infinity 6 checks in Block 2. Do tell me how much it bothered Evil decks. If you answered "they couldn't give a crap less," you'd be right!

Seriously, if someone ever gives you something stupid about a symbol not having any non-infinity 6 checks to its name, silence them. That's just a foolish reason not to run a symbol...probably the most foolish out there.

If 6 checks were the only reason to run a symbol, no one would run anything except Air.

Not only that but a playset of Chester's Backing, Soul of Ling Sheng Su, Nine Lives, End it All, Infected, Return to Southtown, Mark of the Wolf, Black Magic, Blinding Rage, Excitable, Makai High Noble,Olcadan's Mentoring, Lynette's Shop, Feline Spike, Ira Spinta would be the only Air deck in existence.

death doesn't need six checks because it runs few to no 2 checks, and has a low dificulty curve.

trane said:

I think every symbol ought to have access to 6 checks. The problem you encounter with 6 checks is that you either make a foundation far too good (Chester's, Yoga) or you make it absolutely worthless (Infected, Irresistible). Unfortunately they've had a hard time finding a balance inbetween.

Soul of Ling-Sheng Su is the most balanced 6-check around, and truly should be the model 6 check card designers set their sites towards. Although it isn't broken, and I've found plenty of my decks not needing it, it's something you can slide into any deck without fear.

This game is certainly moving in a direction where just about every card can justifiably see play. However, balance is an issue, and having a 6 check can be an iffy matter seeing as how it helps bigger attacks pass quickly.

Hope for One's People definitely could've been a 6 check if they wanted it to be.

MarcoPulleaux said:

i agree about hope for one's people. good as is though.

So anyway, game design talk aside...

What are you guys' thoughts on Huge Wrestling Army? It's as good as staple in any 6HS-or-Hugo earth-death character {Rashotep?} imho, and I've seen it included in a few 7HS aggro decks before Set 12 hit {Zi Mei and Donovan to be specific} as a spam foundation that let the deck run slightly more attacks while still getting a fairly good spill going on earlygame. It's obviously major Mentoring bait if your opponent can get through Oral Dead and whatnot, and the 4cc/no block aren't anything good either. But it's card advantage, and I know I've used it in Earth decks to put the last little bit of damage for a OHK.

for me, the hardest part about building a death deck is finding lower then 2 difficulty foundations to put. Saikyo-Ryu is okay, but hard for 6HS to run, as is End It All. A card with Selfless Giving's stats and an ability actually worth a **** would be amazing.

That, and the absurdly high number of 4-checks =/

guitalex2008 said:

No Lord of the Makai? Interesting choice.

quarzark said:

Manifest Destiny, Cursed Blood, Saikyo-Ryu seems like a fine lineup to me. They're all 4s, but death doesn't have many other must-run 4s (No Mems, maybe Hulking Brute, and some sideboard stuff) so it's more or less okay. If you have a need for momentum, there's Military Combat Arts as well.