Reading some of the posts here, I'm having a vision of some Rebel faction in a wretched hive of scum and villainy somewhere, planning some big act of resistance...

Rebel cell leader: "What has the Empire ever done for us?"

Random Rebel: "Well, there's public order - you've got to admit, it's safe to walk the streets now".

Leader: "Okay, obviously, but apart from that..."

"Well, inflation is under control."

"Okay, but apart from public order and inflation..."

Etc.

Reading some of the posts here, I'm having a vision of some Rebel faction in a wretched hive of scum and villainy somewhere, planning some big act of resistance...

Rebel cell leader: "What has the Empire ever done for us?"

Random Rebel: "Well, there's public order - you've got to admit, it's safe to walk the streets now".

Leader: "Okay, obviously, but apart from that..."

"Well, inflation is under control."

"Okay, but apart from public order and inflation..."

Etc.

Very Life of Brian.

i just introduced a new imperial character in my game. he is sort of the groups nemesis but possibly, if they play their cards right and not cross him, an ally. his name is joadyn laysin, disenfranchised emperor's hand.

A very wise person once said that "man has dominated man to his injury." This is the philosophy behind my portrayal of the Empire/Rebellion: in any group of people, you are going to have those who are evil, and those that do what they believe is right. Each group is going to have its own "evils" that will end up hurting innocent groups of people; while the Empire's may be more obvious, the Rebels can have more subtle (and ultimately more dangerous) ones. Think about the Stormtroopers, the random ensigns and lieutenants you see on the bridge of the Star Destroyers, even men like Needa and Piett; you cannot truly believe that every single one of them is completely puppy-murdering evil. At the same time, I wouldn't doubt that there are Rebel cells that use Jihadist-techniques to try to "free" citizens of a planet that actually appreciate what the Empire has done for them and do not want it to be overthrown.

These are all things I keep in mind when thinking about how to portray the Galactic Civil War.

My Empire is EVIL. While there may be some "good" people in the Empire, they are still knowingly taking an active part in the atrocities it commits on a daily basis. Evil by association. It is a broad stroke yes, but I am okay with that because it keeps things simple. The complications and moral quandaries, I feel, should come from the PCs own motivations,obligations, and duty. I like to leave the overall theme/plot/conflict as black and white as possible.

There are some decent people in the Imperial military, and they I'm sure end up comprising a large portion of the professional military that defects to the Rebellion. However, the overwhelming majority of the Empire is rotten right to the core.

History is replete with examples of dictators putting in place the human logistical apparatus to exterminate other humans like bugs. Examples like Nazi Germany and Stalinist USSR demonstrate it can be done on a large, long term scale. You spin that up to the Empire with legions of genetically grown soldiers that follow identical pre programmed orders on a galactic scale and you have an absolute genocide machine.

I agree with you that there are shades of gray in the Empire/Rebellion conflict, and to keep this in an RPG perspective, a GM should use these issues to come up with some great adventures, such as what to do when some Rebels start using Jihadist techniques on people whose only crime is being a citizen of the Empire.

Personally, I would say that while not every member of the Empire should be evil on the scale of Darth Vader, the Emperor and Grand Moff Tarkin, the PCs should run into enough of them to be convinced that the Empire is not their friend.

A very wise person once said that "man has dominated man to his injury." This is the philosophy behind my portrayal of the Empire/Rebellion: in any group of people, you are going to have those who are evil, and those that do what they believe is right. Each group is going to have its own "evils" that will end up hurting innocent groups of people; while the Empire's may be more obvious, the Rebels can have more subtle (and ultimately more dangerous) ones. Think about the Stormtroopers, the random ensigns and lieutenants you see on the bridge of the Star Destroyers, even men like Needa and Piett; you cannot truly believe that every single one of them is completely puppy-murdering evil. At the same time, I wouldn't doubt that there are Rebel cells that use Jihadist-techniques to try to "free" citizens of a planet that actually appreciate what the Empire has done for them and do not want it to be overthrown.

These are all things I keep in mind when thinking about how to portray the Galactic Civil War.

I myself mostly use the empire as you would a government. The stormtroopers are technically the army / "peace keepers" of the galaxy. I tend to use the higher ups as very cunning individuals who would refuse to give information away under torture, and my storm troopers, while they are not to be trifled with in numbers, on an individual scale are pretty laid back. My players have encountered said troopers on Dantooine, which is as we know, pretty remote. I figured the men stationed there are pretty easy going over all since they don't have much to do for the most part. In that same regard however, the Stormtroopers on a core world are much nastier and strict. They are on constant watch by their superiors.

Just my two cents.

Star Wars (in the original films, anyway) was very good vs. bad, with next to no grey. (Obi Wan tells Luke his dad was a pilot on a spice freighter, but even that doesn't sound as bad as "yer old man smuggled drugs.") Those of you who emphasise the grey areas of the galactic civil war (some of the rebels are just terrorists, some of the imperials are just good folk who are fighting against chaos), do you find the tone of your game feels like Star Wars? (To me, this means pulpy, plucky-underdog adventurousnessness.)

This isn't passive-aggressive snark, but a genuine query. (I don't GM Star Wars - I get Warhammer/40K/Cyberpunk duty, and in those games I enjoy tough moral decisions and "lesser of two evils" solutions.)

Star Wars (in the original films, anyway) was very good vs. bad, with next to no grey. (Obi Wan tells Luke his dad was a pilot on a spice freighter, but even that doesn't sound as bad as "yer old man smuggled drugs.") Those of you who emphasise the grey areas of the galactic civil war (some of the rebels are just terrorists, some of the imperials are just good folk who are fighting against chaos), do you find the tone of your game feels like Star Wars? (Pulpy, plucky-underdog adventurousnessness.)

This isn't passive-aggressive snark, but a genuine query. (I don't GM Star Wars - I get Warhammer/40K/Cyberpunk duty, and in those games I enjoy tough moral decisions and "lesser of two evils" solutions.)

Good question. My Empire is largely light gray (Legacy Era game) but that just means that the dark spots (Sith and otherwise) just stand out more. My players would never be interested in playing total white hat good guys, so I don't feel the need to oppose them with very many total black hat bad guys. It still feels right to us.

Considering that my group is a band of criminals doing legal and illegal kinds of stuff for money (very grey) it does seem somewhat hypocritic to paint things in pure black and white.

So i go with black, white and grey ^^

Black, grey and white Imps, Seps, Regels, civilians all around.

Will i throw typical SW moments at them? Of course!

But each session lasts longer than one of the movies so i have to offer more than that.

Isn't the empire endorsing slavery something that has been relegated to the legends works? We don't know if the current canon will continue this.

That being said, the empire is corrupt (as is any government).

Isn't the empire endorsing slavery something that has been relegated to the legends works? We don't know if the current canon will continue this.

That being said, the empire is corrupt (as is any government).

There's no evidence of it in the movies. In Jedi, specifically, the station commander tells Vader he needs more men to finish the project, and Vader says he can motivate the workers. They never give the impression they mean slaves, that's pure EU junk.

Isn't the empire endorsing slavery something that has been relegated to the legends works? We don't know if the current canon will continue this.

There are spoilers for the first couple of episodes of rebels here:-

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/06/6-28-14-now-podcasting-episode-39

My intent is to start Edge of the Empire just after the end of the Clone Wars. At this point, the Empire is more like the Allicance from "Firefly". Bossier and nosier than maybe it needs to be but life in the Core is not only pleasant, but better than ever with the war winding down and loads off refugees providing a willing (and inexpensive) new servant class-boom. Troops arrive weekly out in the Rim bringing order and much needed relief supplies (and then not leaving).
The Empire (as the PCs encounter it) is fairly light gray and the PCs may be, objectively, worse.

However, dig deep enough... and there is some seriously scary government business going one.

Eventually, I will advance the timeline for Age of Rebellion.The grip has tightened to genuine opression and the scarier secrets have turned into whispered rumors. A rebellion is still a tricky concept, and could still do more harm than good.

Come Force and Destiny, I want shining white light in the face of darkness to at least be a viable option for the PCs.

Basically I want to portray the growth of heroes against the backdrop of the formation of a truly evil Empire.

Isn't the empire endorsing slavery something that has been relegated to the legends works? We don't know if the current canon will continue this.

There are spoilers for the first couple of episodes of rebels here:-

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/06/6-28-14-now-podcasting-episode-39

Imperial slavery is still in. Also rebels stealing food to give to starving masses

Got to dumb it down for the kiddies I guess.

I personally don't go for moustache twirling evil Imps, it's to easy and lacks depth.

And it only encourages murder hobo play when dealing with Imps.

Legends explains it a copule of different ways

In one slavery was illegal under the Empire but a number of species like Mon Calamari and Wookiees were declared to be non-sentient animals and domestication of animals was allowed.

In the other slavery was allowed but only the Imperial government could legally own slaves, with Imperials who had personal slaves being assigned them from the Imperial labor pool.

Honestly slave labor is a pretty standard evil empire feature I don't know why anyone thinks the Galactic Empire would be an exception. Though Legends makes it clear that many in the Imperial military dislike the idea.

In the other slavery was allowed but only the Imperial government could legally own slaves, with Imperials who had personal slaves being assigned them from the Imperial labor pool.

I've heard a slight variation on this one, in that the Empire can also 'authorize' other parties (individuals, corporations, etc.) to utilize the Empire's slaves. The slaves were still technically Imperial property even if they were, for intents and purposes, owned by the second party..

Honestly slave labor is a pretty standard evil empire feature I don't know why anyone thinks the Galactic Empire would be an exception.

It has been too long since I last watched the original movies, but do they ever use the term slave in the movies? If not, then that's why people don't think Imperials have slaves. Makes me want to go watch that clip of every word said in Star Wars in alphabetical order to find out if slave is used. Perhaps Anakin and his mom are the only characters ever refered to as slaves in the movies.

As a kid I've always known that Wookies were slaves. Same with Jabba's dancing girls and Leia's "slave girl" outfit. Where did I get the notion that they are slaves from? Was it in some early EU stuff? Was it in promotional film stuff? Don't Han and Chewie go visit Chewie's family in the Holiday Special? If they are slaves, how can they have visitors? Does anyone know where the first idea of slaves in Star Wars came from? Or am I wrong and it's in the movies?

I am thinking the first reference to Wookiee slaves is likely in the original Han Solo trilogy when it described Han freeing Chewie from slavery. So it isn't canon per se but it is some of the oldest EU lore there is.

I'm pitching the Empire as "plausible" evil. What do I mean by "plausible" evil when our own real word is littered with atrocities and thus all could be considered "plausible"? Well what I mean is the level of evil where the players can still engage with it and be afraid of it without snapping into the mindset that they're up against cartoon villains. I could replicate terrible events from the real world into my campaign - genocide, human experimentation and more. But I would run the risk of players taking it as my attempt to make the Empire puppy-kicking evil. (i.e. heavy-handed artless caricature).

So whilst I have bad things done by the Empire, I'm highlighting that it is an organizational evil, rather than mwuh-ha-ha-ha people. The scariest that I have ever seen the Empire is the in The Wrong Jedi episodes of TCW where Asoka suddenly and unexpectedly finds herself on the outside. Here we see the scariness of the Empire not in some Moff torturing a rebel, but in the sheer implacable scale of it as an institution. It cannot be reasoned with, it cannot be bargained with - any more than the average person can fight the tax office. You comply or you're arrested. The Empire's officials are every TSA agent at every airport that you've ever travelled through. They're the force that tells you your ancestral land is being seized under some recently passed law and all you can do is pack up and leave, they're knock on the door at three in the morning. Above all else, most of the people you meet in the Empire are "just doing their job".

That's an evil that players can believe in and feel afraid of. Not some cackling loony, but an institution that will rule and shows every sign of always ruling. Forever.

Isn't the empire endorsing slavery something that has been relegated to the legends works? We don't know if the current canon will continue this.

That being said, the empire is corrupt (as is any government).

There's no evidence of it in the movies. In Jedi, specifically, the station commander tells Vader he needs more men to finish the project, and Vader says he can motivate the workers. They never give the impression they mean slaves, that's pure EU junk.

The Death Star II construction project IMO was very unlikely to use slave labor, or civilian contractors for that matter because so much depended on keeping its true status secret and having all of its construction done by the Imperial Military's Corp of Engineers or whatever the equivalent is has a much lower risk of leaks than using slaves or civilian workers for construction.

However there is no reason to believe that other Imperial construction projects, including the Death Star I, couldn't have used slave labor.

Honestly slave labor is a pretty standard evil empire feature I don't know why anyone thinks the Galactic Empire would be an exception.

It has been too long since I last watched the original movies, but do they ever use the term slave in the movies? If not, then that's why people don't think Imperials have slaves. Makes me want to go watch that clip of every word said in Star Wars in alphabetical order to find out if slave is used. Perhaps Anakin and his mom are the only characters ever refered to as slaves in the movies.

As a kid I've always known that Wookies were slaves. Same with Jabba's dancing girls and Leia's "slave girl" outfit. Where did I get the notion that they are slaves from? Was it in some early EU stuff? Was it in promotional film stuff? Don't Han and Chewie go visit Chewie's family in the Holiday Special? If they are slaves, how can they have visitors? Does anyone know where the first idea of slaves in Star Wars came from? Or am I wrong and it's in the movies?

No they don' but all we see of the Empire in the movies is military personnel, and high ranking officials. We never see anything being built other than the Death Star II and we don't even actually see any work bring done on that, we're just told that it is being worked on.

I am thinking the first reference to Wookiee slaves is likely in the original Han Solo trilogy when it described Han freeing Chewie from slavery. So it isn't canon per se but it is some of the oldest EU lore there is.

True that's when I first remember hearing about it as well. Honestly slavery is so typical of evil empires, both fictional and real, that I fail to see why anyone is so shocked that this was one of the parts of the Legends continuity to become canon.

Late to the party here, but here's my two cents to the OP:

"As Evil As I Need Them To Be."

The Empire builds superweapons, designs chemical/biological weapons, enslaves species, promotes a massive degree of racism and are really ethnocentric. The Emperor is a Sith Lord, which is a whole different degree of Evil as they seek to acquire and horde power. Officials are bribed, slavery tends to be overlooked, power gets consolodated to areas that matter and every so often you'll see an army of stormtroopers marching into town to kill everyone for not paying taxes. Overall, it looks pretty evil.

But sometimes, you have a group of Stormtroopers that disagrees with the slaughtering of innocent children, even if they are aliens. You'll see a planetary governor look the other way when it comes to taxes and it's been a bad season. A member of ISB will just wave along a vessel that she knows is loaded with medicine heading to an interdicted planet. Sometimes you'll even find a Moff backing off of the blatant racism in their sector.

In the end, the Empire as a whole is pretty evil (with it's own special flavour of corruption), but it's run by individual persons, and persons can be capable of great and wonderful things.

So when I say it is as Evil as I need it to be, I mean it. Sometimes I purposely show off the good sides of the Empire (whether the people with a heart or the areas that get clean water and pirate-free zones), but other times I show off those atrocities.

I am thinking the first reference to Wookiee slaves is likely in the original Han Solo trilogy when it described Han freeing Chewie from slavery. So it isn't canon per se but it is some of the oldest EU lore there is.

I can recall reading that Han freed Chewie from slavery in an old Star Wars magazine that came out shortly after the movies, probably 1978. It was one of those big splashy magazines with details about making of the movie along with details fleshing out the universe such as mention of the Obi-Vader fight and a pool of lava that caused Vader's injuries. Canon? I have no idea what the source but I assume this early on some of it was from Lucas himself via interviews, etc. Of course lots of what Lucas was talking back in the late 70's went out the window by the Empire Strikes Back, let alone more modern times. But yes, the Wookies as slaves notion goes way, way back.

Eta: I used to have that old magazine stored away somewhere. It probably got tossed long ago but perhaps I should do a basement search sometime.

Lucas flip flopped on the whole Han shot first thing over the decades too, so grain of salt.