Also, and not to insult mathwingers like MajorJuggler here, I don't put much stock in that stuff for two reasons: this game is not a game of averages, but of variances, and i can't roll .37 of an evade. I either evade one damage or I don't. Someone can quote me all the numbers they like, but if we joust and my Defender rolls (after modifications) 3-4 hits at range 1 and lands most of them, then takes 3 or so hits but evades 2 of them to win the joust and cake the other guy then my opponent's still down a ship and my Demon Defender is still flying. All the statistical averages in the world didn't save that poor sod back there.

You're right, you can't roll.37 of an evade. That's the average based on that dice scenario. Basically, if you rolled that scenario 100 times, you'd get that evade 37 times. The rest you'd get nothing.

Yes. I'm aware of that. But really you don't need them to come up all the time anyway. And again, I don't let averages dictate my play because you can't really count on them.

I really hope to be able to try this build before our regionals this saturday :

Delta Squadron + HLC x 2

Captain Jonus + Swarm Tactics + Seismic Charge

So both defenders rolls 4 attack dices FCS + TL at range 2-3. You fly them in tight formation and when comes the time to K-Turn, drop the charge then the defender in front of Jonus barrel roll to leave some space for his 5-k-turn. That's some serious fire power in such a small footprint.

There is no FCS in your build, and no points for it.

Ran this list last night. I won a defender during the Amdaar tourney, but had not played it because I could not use it for a tourney that was coming up. Just got a Phantom for Fathers day, and pulled out a once used bomber to round it off. Had low expectations, but was looking for a fun evening of throwing dice and having a few beers.

Jonus w/ Concussion missles and Munitions failsafe
Echo w/adv cloaking
Onyx Squad pilot w/ HLC
100pts

vs

Etahn Abaht
LT Blount (really would like a clarification on his ability)
Wedge
Many upgrades to all ships

While I took a lot of damage, game was over after round four, having taken out Wedge and Blount and losing no ships. Solid dice rolls definitely came into play, but I'll take it.

I really hope to be able to try this build before our regionals this saturday :

Delta Squadron + HLC x 2

Captain Jonus + Swarm Tactics + Seismic Charge

So both defenders rolls 4 attack dices FCS + TL at range 2-3. You fly them in tight formation and when comes the time to K-Turn, drop the charge then the defender in front of Jonus barrel roll to leave some space for his 5-k-turn. That's some serious fire power in such a small footprint.

There is no FCS in your build, and no points for it.

Sorry I meant focus

Gotcha...

So yeah you probably wouldn't even have to spend your target lock at range 2-3 since Jonus will give you rerolls - so save those until you are in range 1, THEn use them - since Jonus won't give you the reroll on your primary.

Another possible list that might work well:

Colonel Vessery w/ HLC

Captain Jonus w/ flechette torpedoes, flechette torpedoes

Omicron Group Pilot w/ FCS, tactician, ion cannon, engine upgrade

100 points

Jonus and Omicron pilot are dealing stress to opponents and aquiring target locks that Vessery can benefit from. Ion cannon + the stress helps control the board and predict opponents' locations. Jonus can help both other ships w/ rerolls if flying in formation. I am definitely going to have to try this one out!

The missile slot on an Advance (excluding Vader) really doesn't do anything to make it a more effective ship when in conjunction with the nature of that ship. What I mean to say is that beyond one turn, giving an Advance some cluster missiles doesn't make it great.

However, the Defender's overall build (HP, Dial and Pilot Abilities) make the cannons much more useful than a standard ship. For instance, a ship that can take actions after it k-turns is good. A ship that can ion someone and then take actions after it k-turns is better.

Upgrades in general are more attractive on more expensive ships because they cost a smaller proportion of the overall ship cost. You rarely see upgrades on Academy TIEs, because that's a waste of points on a ship that's only 12 points to begin with. A ship that's a little more than twice as durable (Defender) is going to get more use out of its upgrades simply because it'll be alive longer. Still, cannons are expensive. so the cannon slot is nice, but not nearly as large of a factor as the dial.

Actually I thought that the TIE Fighter was overcosted by 1 point, and the justification for that extra point was to prevent 9 TIE Fighters in a 100 point game. I don't have the exact formulae on hand but it was done shortly after the game released and way before Wave 2, IIRC.

No, they just made the point progression reasonable to go from PS1 to PS3 for a ship that has a base cost of 12. Would it have been fair to pay 2 points for 2PS on a 30 point ship, but then also have to pay 2 points to get 2 PS on a 12 point ship?

They did the same exact thing with the Z-95.

Wait, what?

I'm genuinely curious to see the breakdown, at the time I think they figured that 11 points is what the PS1 TIE Fighter should've costed, and that the formulae for determining ship cost was equal across the board as far as wave 1 ships went. 11 points would also explain why the PS3 T/F is 13 and PS4 14. It's changed since then but I don't think they've changed their intent of stopping Imperials from fielding 9 T/Fs since printing the core set.

FFG has never said anything one way or the other. I don't know where people got the idea that the TIE Fighter is "overcosted", I think somebody said it once and then in the echo chamber of the internet, it just kept getting repeated. It doesn't matter either way. All ship costs are essentially relative comparisons, and the TIE Fighter is 12 points. you can philosophize about it all day long, but in the end it doesn't matter. the Academy TIE is 12 points.

Done and done.

I think gameplay experience would show that 3/3/3/3 is just insane for 24 pts. I'm sorry, I don't care what the math says. All the experience I have would say such a ship would break the game. Even with the HWK's dial. I think you are greatly undervaluing how much further each HP can go with a high er agility.

I'm comparing a TIE Defender, which has 3 agility, vs. a TIE Fighter, which has 3 agility. Where does the high er come from?

I think Sithborg's point is that you can't just scale the stats and call it a day; health is worth more when you have more agility protecting it. Or are we really saying that a built-in Stealth Device and Shield Upgrade would only up the X-wing by 3 or 4 points?

Of course you can scale the stats. But everything is a relative measurement, so you need to take the entire sentence in context:

A 3/3/3/3 stat line is worth 24 points relative to a 2/3/3/0 statline that is worth 12 points.

What does this mean? The standard TIE Fighter is one of the most point efficient ships in the game, even without Howlrunner. Through wave 3, it was THE most point efficient ship in the game. (Excluding the Lambda shuttle, which has obvious dial limitations). So obviously if you make a new ship at the same point efficiency as the standard TIE, it is going to be extremely good. I'm not even saying the TIE Defender should cost 24. You have to account for its upgrades and dial, and it's still far too early to tell based on data what the real value of a Defender is. If I had to speculate, I would guess that if it had one more shield, then it would be perfect for its cost. Incidentally going by the "lore" it should have 4 shields anyway. This would give it the stat line efficiency of a naked Y-wing rather than the TIE Advanced.

The X-wing is not nearly as points efficient as the TIE Fighter. If you were to price a 3/3/3/3 statline based on the X-wing's cost, then it would be 26 points at PS1, not 24 points. (This says something about the E-wing, by the way, but that's another story) Not coincidentally, non-named X-wing pilot usage is well behind non-named TIE Fighter and B-wing usage, both of which are more points efficient. The named X-wing pilots have some spectacular abilities though.

FFG has never said anything one way or the other. I don't know where people got the idea that the TIE Fighter is "overcosted", I think somebody said it once and then in the echo chamber of the internet, it just kept getting repeated. It doesn't matter either way. All ship costs are essentially relative comparisons, and the TIE Fighter is 12 points. you can philosophize about it all day long, but in the end it doesn't matter. the Academy TIE is 12 points.

I think possibly this is the case, from reports of the balancing during beta testing...but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure that the X-wing was bumped up to 21 to avoid a 5 X list, and maybe that's what people are thinking of.

If anything, the basic TIE is undercosted by a point. The reverse of the coin of saying that several shps are overcosted relative to an academy pilot is to just sa that the academy pilot is too cheap. But you have to pick something as a baseline, so it's understandable to choose the cheap ship.

It pretty much comes down to the early efforts to reverse engineer a point cost formula. It was fairly accurate for Wave 1, where it came down to the TIE supposed to be costing 11 pts. It makes sense that they would tweak the cost up a point to prevent the 9 TIE swarm.

Sorry but a TIE has barrel roll and can do hard bank 1. It's way more maneuverable than the Z-95. I would take a TIE over the Z95 any day.

Sure you can put missiles on a Z-95, but then, it's no longer a 12 pts ship, but a 16-17 pts one.

Sorry but a TIE has barrel roll and can do hard bank 1. It's way more maneuverable than the Z-95. I would take a TIE over the Z95 any day.

Sure you can put missiles on a Z-95, but then, it's no longer a 12 pts ship, but a 16-17 pts one.

XXXZZZ has more health than a tie swarm, more firepower than a tie swarm, and has no need to clump like a tie swarm. That said, I'm not saying the Z is better, just that they each have advantages and disadvantages. Also Airen Cracken is freaking amazing.

Sorry but a TIE has barrel roll and can do hard bank 1. It's way more maneuverable than the Z-95. I would take a TIE over the Z95 any day.

Sure you can put missiles on a Z-95, but then, it's no longer a 12 pts ship, but a 16-17 pts one.

It's got a lot going for it though too. The Z can't be one shot anywhere near as reliably. It has some shields, and it can be paired with more durable ships for bulkier more powerful lists.

XXXZZZ has more health than a tie swarm, more firepower than a tie swarm, and has no need to clump like a tie swarm. That said, I'm not saying the Z is better, just that they each have advantages and disadvantages. Also Airen Cracken is freaking amazing.

Perhaps most importantly, the Z-95 comes in at PS2 not PS1. It's effective PS1 cost is only 11.5, making it the cheapest in the game. But it's actually a hair more durable than the TIE Fighter. If Rebels had a Howlrunner equivalent pilot, it would be REALLY powerful.

Edit: and BXXZZZ, the natural upgrade from BXXYY, is even better.

Sorry but a TIE has barrel roll and can do hard bank 1. It's way more maneuverable than the Z-95. I would take a TIE over the Z95 any day.

Sure you can put missiles on a Z-95, but then, it's no longer a 12 pts ship, but a 16-17 pts one.

It's got a lot going for it though too. The Z can't be one shot anywhere near as reliably. It has some shields, and it can be paired with more durable ships for bulkier more powerful lists.

XXXZZZ has more health than a tie swarm, more firepower than a tie swarm, and has no need to clump like a tie swarm. That said, I'm not saying the Z is better, just that they each have advantages and disadvantages. Also Airen Cracken is freaking amazing.

Perhaps most importantly, the Z-95 comes in at PS2 not PS1. It's effective PS1 cost is only 11.5, making it the cheapest in the game. But it's actually a hair more durable than the TIE Fighter. If Rebels had a Howlrunner equivalent pilot, it would be REALLY powerful.

Edit: and BXXZZZ, the natural upgrade from BXXYY, is even better.

I still call ps2 vs ps1 a wash. I'd rather have the PS 1 for blocking purposes, but shooting first is nice too.

Well, in that case the higher PS versions of ships shouldn't cost anything extra!

I still call ps2 vs ps1 a wash. I'd rather have the PS 1 for blocking purposes, but shooting first is nice too.

Well, in that case the higher PS versions of ships shouldn't cost anything extra!

I still call ps2 vs ps1 a wash. I'd rather have the PS 1 for blocking purposes, but shooting first is nice too.

Well, in that case the higher PS versions of ships shouldn't cost anything extra!

Not nearly as much as they do...

Its unfortunately hard to cost ships at fractions of a point to cost them more accurately. The PS spread at Regionals is pretty even, with a hump at PS1 and PS2.

PS11 0.00%

Poor PS7!

Honestly, we still have to see how Wave 4 shakes out. FFG hasn't put much emphasis on Pilot Skill in the past. But now, with the Phantom, and especially Predator, players will probably be thinking about it. And I think FFG might start tossing in other reasons to go for the higher pilot skill.

I still call ps2 vs ps1 a wash. I'd rather have the PS 1 for blocking purposes, but shooting first is nice too.

Well, in that case the higher PS versions of ships shouldn't cost anything extra!

Not nearly as much as they do...

Its unfortunately hard to cost ships at fractions of a point to cost them more accurately. The PS spread at Regionals is pretty even, with a hump at PS1 and PS2.

Mean PS 4.29

PS1 17.10%

PS2 20.41%

PS3 10.13%

PS4 11.07%

PS5 9.49%

PS6 7.14%

PS7 4.95%

PS8 10.60%

PS9 9.10%

PS10 0.52%

PS11 0.00%

Poor PS7!