Played some wave 4 games today and I've got to say I absolutely HATE the Defender. Hate.

Initially I thought the white K turn meant it had the best dial, but it's got red hard turns, and no green turns at all. It's basically awesome if you are ONLY going straight. If you have to turn, even an X-Wing has better turning ability. Kinda sad for a ship who's claim to fame was it's dial.

Has any of wave four even come out yet?

Played some wave 4 games today and I've got to say I absolutely HATE the Defender. Hate.

Initially I thought the white K turn meant it had the best dial, but it's got red hard turns, and no green turns at all. It's basically awesome if you are ONLY going straight. If you have to turn, even an X-Wing has better turning ability. Kinda sad for a ship who's claim to fame was it's dial.

Has any of wave four even come out yet?

It came out last week. Where have you been?

I would venture a guess with: Speleology trip...

Got in my first two games with the Defender tonight at the local League. Didn't try anything too fancy, just a Delta with Engine Upgrade alongside a Howlrunner TIE Swarm, in order to try to learn the limits of the dial. First game was against a Rebel Squad: Etahn Abaht, Ten Numb, and Biggs. It was dead in turn 3. Second game was against a similar list, a Howlrunner-less TIE Swarm with Mauler Mithel and Turr Phennir. I used the Defenders fast dial and the Engine Upgrade to position it in the rocks, perpendicular to the jousting TIE Swarms, and went to town. First attack it blew away Turr Phennir, but that was mainly because he was focusing on my swarmlet and the dice were big time in my favor. Made several consecutive K-turns, with the occasional positioning adjustment from a boost or barrel roll. He only got one shot on the Defender the whole match, which dealt a single damage. Looking forward to giving the named pilots an official spin. Have seen both of them played, but needed to get in some practice with its wacky dial before I risked any more points. I definitely appreciated that Engine Upgrade, though.

Still waiting on the rest of my Wave 4, but have also seen several matches with the Phantom. In a word, it's Lethal.

I don't hate the defender, but I'm not fond of it either. I like to fly imperial because I find the jousting flying style of rebel ships bores me to tears. The defender looks like it was designed to say "Hey rebels! We can joust better than you can! nyah nyah!" It's ridiculous.

Actually, I think the general consensus from the Mathwingers is that the Defender is an awful jouster. Someone correct me if I'm misquoting here.....

Except, that it's white k turn makes it an amazing jouster, because it will probably survive pass 1 and has a good chance of surviving pass 2, after pass 2, it is behind you forever....

Pass 1 = first approach

Pass 2 = both sides 1st k turn.

I don't really get the bad jouster thing. I think they just mean for it's point cost. But personally I put no stock in that because points stop mattering if you kill the other guy. Space debris doesn't have the luxury of debating cost effectiveness. And with its stat line, the Defender can out-joust almost any single ship in the game.

Actually, I think the general consensus from the Mathwingers is that the Defender is an awful jouster. Someone correct me if I'm misquoting here.....

I don't really get the bad jouster thing. I think they just mean for it's point cost. But personally I put no stock in that because points stop mattering if you kill the other guy. Space debris doesn't have the luxury of debating cost effectiveness. And with its stat line, the Defender can out-joust almost any single ship in the game.

A 3/3/3/3 stat line is worth 24 points, relative to a 2/3/3/0 stat line that is worth 12 points. The Defender costs 30, so the remaining 6 points are essentially paying for the dial and upgrades that the basic TIE Fighter does not have.

Ah, so not awful, just inefficient. Got it. Thanks Major!

Also, and not to insult mathwingers like MajorJuggler here, I don't put much stock in that stuff for two reasons: this game is not a game of averages, but of variances, and i can't roll .37 of an evade. I either evade one damage or I don't. Someone can quote me all the numbers they like, but if we joust and my Defender rolls (after modifications) 3-4 hits at range 1 and lands most of them, then takes 3 or so hits but evades 2 of them to win the joust and cake the other guy then my opponent's still down a ship and my Demon Defender is still flying. All the statistical averages in the world didn't save that poor sod back there.

I think gameplay experience would show that 3/3/3/3 is just insane for 24 pts. I'm sorry, I don't care what the math says. All the experience I have would say such a ship would break the game. Even with the HWK's dial. I think you are greatly undervaluing how much further each HP can go with a higher agility.

I'm still trying to understand where all the hate for the Defender dial is. Does it have a ton of green. No. But neither does it have a horrible amount, just the average. Yes, its all straight. But, I think the 1 bank puts it above the much vaunted Interceptor dial. Yes, it wiggles a bit when you hit the brakes. I'm realizing that is where you will learn how to maneuver the Defender. Wiggle, than speed up for the 4 k-turn. And thank goodness for the 4-kturn. Doesn't take you out of battle quite as bad as the 5, but still easy to clear ships in front of you. The turns are rough, sure. But, it just means you have to plan for your opponent's movements a tad better.

Ah, so not awful, just inefficient. Got it. Thanks Major!

Typically they are the same thing. The TIE Advanced is the poster child example. The TIE Defender and TIE Advanced actually have the same cost efficiency looking at just their cost and stat line. However, the TIE Advanced has absolutely no redeeming qualities to make it unique from the standard TIE Fighter, aside from its stat line. Therefore, it's blatantly inefficient and nobody uses it.

The same would be true of the TIE Defender, but it has a white K-turn. The cannon slot is nice but points wise largely self-balancing due to the cost of the cannons themselves.

Since the TIE Advanced and TIE Defender stat line efficiency is almost exactly the same, and they are functionally very similar aside from their dials, then the following question becomes very relevant:

If you gave the TIE Advanced the TIE Defender dial, would the TIE Advanced now be a good ship?

If yes, then the TIE Defender should also be a good ship. If no, then the TIE Defender should not be a good ship.

Also, and not to insult mathwingers like MajorJuggler here, I don't put much stock in that stuff for two reasons: this game is not a game of averages, but of variances, and i can't roll .37 of an evade. I either evade one damage or I don't. Someone can quote me all the numbers they like, but if we joust and my Defender rolls (after modifications) 3-4 hits at range 1 and lands most of them, then takes 3 or so hits but evades 2 of them to win the joust and cake the other guy then my opponent's still down a ship and my Demon Defender is still flying. All the statistical averages in the world didn't save that poor sod back there.

This is a very valid point to not just look at the mean values. But just because I quote the averages doesn't mean that you can't also use probability to exactly calculate such scenarios. The next update in my MathWing (Lanchester's) thread should include standard deviation values for ship durability, along with plots shots showing the likelihood of a ship dying vs. how many shots are made against it.

I think gameplay experience would show that 3/3/3/3 is just insane for 24 pts. I'm sorry, I don't care what the math says. All the experience I have would say such a ship would break the game. Even with the HWK's dial. I think you are greatly undervaluing how much further each HP can go with a higher agility.

I'm comparing a TIE Defender, which has 3 agility, vs. a TIE Fighter, which has 3 agility. Where does the higher come from?

Sithborg, on 03 Jul 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

I think gameplay experience would show that 3/3/3/3 is just insane for 24 pts. I'm sorry, I don't care what the math says. All the experience I have would say such a ship would break the game. Even with the HWK's dial. I think you are greatly undervaluing how much further each HP can go with a higher agility.

I'm still trying to understand where all the hate for the Defender dial is. Does it have a ton of green. No. But neither does it have a horrible amount, just the average. Yes, its all straight. But, I think the 1 bank puts it above the much vaunted Interceptor dial. Yes, it wiggles a bit when you hit the brakes. I'm realizing that is where you will learn how to maneuver the Defender. Wiggle, than speed up for the 4 k-turn. And thank goodness for the 4-kturn. Doesn't take you out of battle quite as bad as the 5, but still easy to clear ships in front of you. The turns are rough, sure. But, it just means you have to plan for your opponent's movements a tad better.

Right. And also if you are jousting (and you're an Imperial, why would you even do this). If you both trade some average damage and evades, in about two turns one of you is going to be in a much bigger pot with much hotter water. The Defender can, for lack of a better term, "re-joust" you all he likes. But that stress token you picked up to engage him again is going to ensure that turn two, the Defender has the upper hand on any ship but Keyan Farlander. (and even then, Farlander isn't going to be evading much)

Actually I thought that the TIE Fighter was overcosted by 1 point, and the justification for that extra point was to prevent 9 TIE Fighters in a 100 point game. I don't have the exact formulae on hand but it was done shortly after the game released and way before Wave 2, IIRC.

The same would be true of the TIE Defender, but it has a white K-turn. The cannon slot is nice but points wise largely self-balancing due to the cost of the cannons themselves.

I would not totally agree with this statement, for this reason: The missile slot on an Advance (excluding Vader) really doesn't do anything to make it a more effective ship when in conjunction with the nature of that ship. What I mean to say is that beyond one turn, giving an Advance some cluster missiles doesn't make it great.

However, the Defender's overall build (HP, Dial and Pilot Abilities) make the cannons much more useful than a standard ship. For instance, a ship that can take actions after it k-turns is good. A ship that can ion someone and then take actions after it k-turns is better.

I didn't think much of the defender before wave 4 got released but after playing with in I came to realise that white k turn is actually very good because it's predictable . What I mean and I don't think maths can faster this in is that if you go straight up at the other side and k turn the following turn to get behind your opponent you have put who your playing in a situation , they have to make a decision to either turn to face it or have it in there rear arc. Either choice is bad as it leaves your rear exposed for either the rest of your fleet to wreak havoc or the defender. I only realised this when I played my first game with the defender and I used it to maximum effect.

I think gameplay experience would show that 3/3/3/3 is just insane for 24 pts. I'm sorry, I don't care what the math says. All the experience I have would say such a ship would break the game. Even with the HWK's dial. I think you are greatly undervaluing how much further each HP can go with a higher agility.

I'm comparing a TIE Defender, which has 3 agility, vs. a TIE Fighter, which has 3 agility. Where does the higher come from?

I think Sithborg's point is that you can't just scale the stats and call it a day; health is worth more when you have more agility protecting it. Or are we really saying that a built-in Stealth Device and Shield Upgrade would only up the X-wing by 3 or 4 points?

Actually I thought that the TIE Fighter was overcosted by 1 point, and the justification for that extra point was to prevent 9 TIE Fighters in a 100 point game. I don't have the exact formulae on hand but it was done shortly after the game released and way before Wave 2, IIRC.

Personally I always thought it was kinda crap that the Z-95 gets 4 total HP, two of which are shields, and one higher PS than an Academy TIE, but still only costs 12. It's dial isn't even bad, in fact it's actually quite good. Feels like they weighted it differently than the TIE, especially given how much point-importance shields are given everywhere else.

Actually I thought that the TIE Fighter was overcosted by 1 point, and the justification for that extra point was to prevent 9 TIE Fighters in a 100 point game. I don't have the exact formulae on hand but it was done shortly after the game released and way before Wave 2, IIRC.

No, they just made the point progression reasonable to go from PS1 to PS3 for a ship that has a base cost of 12. Would it have been fair to pay 2 points for 2PS on a 30 point ship, but then also have to pay 2 points to get 2 PS on a 12 point ship?

They did the same exact thing with the Z-95.

Actually I thought that the TIE Fighter was overcosted by 1 point, and the justification for that extra point was to prevent 9 TIE Fighters in a 100 point game. I don't have the exact formulae on hand but it was done shortly after the game released and way before Wave 2, IIRC.

No, they just made the point progression reasonable to go from PS1 to PS3 for a ship that has a base cost of 12. Would it have been fair to pay 2 points for 2PS on a 30 point ship, but then also have to pay 2 points to get 2 PS on a 12 point ship?

They did the same exact thing with the Z-95.

Wait, what?

I'm genuinely curious to see the breakdown, at the time I think they figured that 11 points is what the PS1 TIE Fighter should've costed, and that the formulae for determining ship cost was equal across the board as far as wave 1 ships went. 11 points would also explain why the PS3 T/F is 13 and PS4 14. It's changed since then but I don't think they've changed their intent of stopping Imperials from fielding 9 T/Fs since printing the core set.

I don't think when people are calculating the cost of the defender they ate accounting for the strength of that k turn, it's what won me the game last night I went head to head with wedge trading shield and hull tokens then k turned and finished him off at range three with hlc, and the 2nd defender k turned and blew away the e-wing with etahn in.

Without the white k turn it would be over costed without a doubt, with it it's about right.

Also, and not to insult mathwingers like MajorJuggler here, I don't put much stock in that stuff for two reasons: this game is not a game of averages, but of variances, and i can't roll .37 of an evade. I either evade one damage or I don't. Someone can quote me all the numbers they like, but if we joust and my Defender rolls (after modifications) 3-4 hits at range 1 and lands most of them, then takes 3 or so hits but evades 2 of them to win the joust and cake the other guy then my opponent's still down a ship and my Demon Defender is still flying. All the statistical averages in the world didn't save that poor sod back there.

You're right, you can't roll.37 of an evade. That's the average based on that dice scenario. Basically, if you rolled that scenario 100 times, you'd get that evade 37 times. The rest you'd get nothing.

Played some wave 4 games today and I've got to say I absolutely HATE the Defender. Hate.

Initially I thought the white K turn meant it had the best dial, but it's got red hard turns, and no green turns at all. It's basically awesome if you are ONLY going straight. If you have to turn, even an X-Wing has better turning ability. Kinda sad for a ship who's claim to fame was it's dial.

Has any of wave four even come out yet?

Some of it has, the ships and upgrades have as far as I know, but that's about it.

I really hope to be able to try this build before our regionals this saturday :

Delta Squadron + HLC x 2

Captain Jonus + Swarm Tactics + Seismic Charge

So both defenders rolls 4 attack dices Focus + TL (from jonus) at range 2-3. You fly them in tight formation and when comes the time to K-Turn, drop the charge then the defender in front of Jonus barrel roll to leave some space for his 5-k-turn. That's some serious fire power in such a small footprint.