I like Rexler. I wanted to run him with predator and a HLC with a mini swarm but it so e point too many. I'll have to give him another go.

I would say drop the HLC I think the 7pts are better used than adding a single die to Rexlar's attack. I believe the math of adding a HLC actually decreases the value of predator on him, because it increases the chance of needing to use a focus offensively by having an extra dice to roll, and rather than rerolling 1(2) out of 3 dice now you are rerolling 1(2) from 4 dice which makes that reroll a tiny bit less of a boon. IE predator's increase in attack efficiency is decreased by adding the HLC especially when cost is factored in.

A real MathWinger I am sure has some numbers to contradict me(or maybe back me up) this was purely my general impressions regarding these two upgrades

I haven't run the numbers on this one, but Predator doesn't cost an action, so you'll get 1 reroll + your focus action. Its like having a soft Target Lock, and also focus, with 4 dice. That's actually really good. Unfortunately it costs a minimum of 45 points. It's not THAT good. Predator is, ironically, anti-synergistic with the PS6 Defender. If you get a free TL, then Predator is (for most scenarios) redundant.

Theres a reason why the pack contains both predator AND outmaneuver you know...

I ran Rexlar on Sun. I still need some practice, but so far, I like the Defender. I have also found out I LOVE Predator and Outmaneuver.

I ran Rexlar on Sun. I still need some practice, but so far, I like the Defender. I have also found out I LOVE Predator and Outmaneuver.

Agreed, especially Predator. Predator is THE reason to buy the Defender.

To a certain degree, I agree with Danthrax on the "not dogfighting" comment, but only if you fly without an engine upgrade, if you add that, you can dogfight.

The Defender, like the Phantom is a new type of ship needing new thinking and tactics. It is not a support ship. It is a mainline heavy fighter, just like the B-wing was for the Rebels. For it to be effective it needs upgrades, as little as an engine upgrade or as much as EU, HLC or missile (and EPT on the named).

When list building with a Defender, the other ships support it to a larger degree.

How about some Black Squadron Pilots with Wingman, flown in formation with the Defender, red moves are a lot less annoying.

When the new "meta" shakes out, my prediction is the Defender will take it's place like the B-wing has.

Except that B-Wings are FAR cheaper than defenders, so you can fit more of them on the table.

I played against the following list last night. It seems to have some merits.

Col Vessery - HLC, Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard Pilot - PtL, Targeting Computer

Royal Guard Pilot - PtL, Targeting Computer

His Interceptors would often dodge out of arc and then pick up a target lock on whatever Vessery was going to shoot at. Every single time Vessery fired all game, he had focus and TL. Hull Upgrade could probably be swapped for something else.

Theres a reason why the pack contains both predator AND outmaneuver you know...

Yes, to make me run more calculations!

I played against the following list last night. It seems to have some merits.

Col Vessery - HLC, Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard Pilot - PtL, Targeting Computer

Royal Guard Pilot - PtL, Targeting Computer

His Interceptors would often dodge out of arc and then pick up a target lock on whatever Vessery was going to shoot at. Every single time Vessery fired all game, he had focus and TL. Hull Upgrade could probably be swapped for something else.

Well, to be fair, if you had just barrel rolled with that Academy the list probably would have crashed and burned rather horribly. It is rather squishy, though it does allow Vessery to hit like a freight train. Outmaneuver on Vessery might have been a good idea.

I like Rexler. I wanted to run him with predator and a HLC with a mini swarm but it so e point too many. I'll have to give him another go.

I would say drop the HLC I think the 7pts are better used than adding a single die to Rexlar's attack. I believe the math of adding a HLC actually decreases the value of predator on him, because it increases the chance of needing to use a focus offensively by having an extra dice to roll, and rather than rerolling 1(2) out of 3 dice now you are rerolling 1(2) from 4 dice which makes that reroll a tiny bit less of a boon. IE predator's increase in attack efficiency is decreased by adding the HLC especially when cost is factored in.

A real MathWinger I am sure has some numbers to contradict me(or maybe back me up) this was purely my general impressions regarding these two upgrades

I haven't run the numbers on this one, but Predator doesn't cost an action, so you'll get 1 reroll + your focus action. Its like having a soft Target Lock, and also focus, with 4 dice. That's actually really good. Unfortunately it costs a minimum of 45 points. It's not THAT good. Predator is, ironically, anti-synergistic with the PS6 Defender. If you get a free TL, then Predator is (for most scenarios) redundant.

40 points is almost too much investment as it is. In time i believe the basic defender will be the most played version .To me the Col with engine upgrade a VI work best for me with support.

@ Eltnot.

Swap that Hull Upgrade for Outmaneuver. It works really well on Vessery with HLC.

@ Eltnot.

Swap that Hull Upgrade for Outmaneuver. It works really well on Vessery with HLC.

DR4CO ran the list, not I. But yes that choice stands out as a reasonable one.

A pity that it is one point too much to put VI on Vessery and then bump one of the RGP's up to Turr Phennir (I wouldn't be terribly happy with dropping the other Interceptor down to a Saber to make it fit).

A pity that it is one point too much to put VI on Vessery and then bump one of the RGP's up to Turr Phennir (I wouldn't be terribly happy with dropping the other Interceptor down to a Saber to make it fit).

Actually, it does fit. It means sacrificing the Hull Upgrade, the initiative bid, and the ability to move at the same PS, of course, but it can be done:

Vessery (35) + HLC (7) + VI (1) = 43

Turr (25) + PtL (3) + TC (2) = 30

RGP (22) + PtL (3) + TC (2) = 27

100 points

A pity that it is one point too much to put VI on Vessery and then bump one of the RGP's up to Turr Phennir (I wouldn't be terribly happy with dropping the other Interceptor down to a Saber to make it fit).

Actually, it does fit. It means sacrificing the Hull Upgrade, the initiative bid, and the ability to move at the same PS, of course, but it can be done:

Vessery (35) + HLC (7) + VI (1) = 43

Turr (25) + PtL (3) + TC (2) = 30

RGP (22) + PtL (3) + TC (2) = 27

100 points

Huzzah, Yay for me stuffing up the maths in my head!

I've heard stories of a local player running 3 PS1 defenders with stealth devices and ripping up opponents. Sounds interesting to try if I grab a third Defender...

I don't understand the comments on why the defender sucks. Can someone outline for me why the Defender is a dud beyond the 1-2 turn maneuvers and cost? In my view it is well worth the points and you won't need the 1-2 turns if you fly it properly, anyway.

I think its a combo of the fact that it flies a bit differently, and doesn't have any features that "pop". The Phantom has cloaking, the E-Wing has a systems slot, the Z-95 is crazy cheap....

I think folks will take a while to warm up to the Defender and learn where it fits and where it doesn't. Its a neat ship, but with its cost you'll need to know its ins and outs to get your value.

3 all the way down with a white 4 K-turn doesn't help the ship pop?

I guess yeah, knowing what it can do and getting it to the table can help the unbelievers. I just wonder for experienced players why they are dismissing the Defender over the Firespray, for instance.

3's all around + white K. Jousting in space

Keh, nevermind, there's a thread drifting nearby filled with people describing why they think the Firespray is better.

Could end up being that both are equally as good and it's up to preference over what kind of list to build.

I also think their roles are a bit different, personally.

I actually really like the dial on the Defender, but its almost as confusing as it is exciting, so I don't think its sells folks as well as cloaking and such.

3 all the way down with a white 4 K-turn doesn't help the ship pop?

I guess yeah, knowing what it can do and getting it to the table can help the unbelievers. I just wonder for experienced players why they are dismissing the Defender over the Firespray, for instance.

The Firespray has 66% more hit points and a rear firing arc for practically the same point cost. The Defender's one agility die doesn't tilt the advantage to it in any meaningful way.

3 all the way down with a white 4 K-turn doesn't help the ship pop?

I guess yeah, knowing what it can do and getting it to the table can help the unbelievers. I just wonder for experienced players why they are dismissing the Defender over the Firespray, for instance.

The Firespray has 66% more hit points and a rear firing arc for practically the same point cost. The Defender's one agility die doesn't tilt the advantage to it in any meaningful way.

Sure, if you're talking averages. But it's nice to be able to dodge three hits. I've had quite a few games where my longevity was due to completely evading a hit/crit loaded attack.

3 all the way down with a white 4 K-turn doesn't help the ship pop?

I guess yeah, knowing what it can do and getting it to the table can help the unbelievers. I just wonder for experienced players why they are dismissing the Defender over the Firespray, for instance.

The Firespray has 66% more hit points and a rear firing arc for practically the same point cost. The Defender's one agility die doesn't tilt the advantage to it in any meaningful way.

Sure, if you're talking averages. But it's nice to be able to dodge three hits. I've had quite a few games where my longevity was due to completely evading a hit/crit loaded attack.

On most points, I agree that I'd rather pay the extra point over an Onyx Squad to get a Bounty Hunter for several reasons, but if you are judging average durability, the Firespray only just has the edge over the Defender.

On average, 3 focused dice vs 2 unfocused yields 1.531 uncancelled hits. 3F vs 3 unfocused yields 1.217.

Firespray=10/1.531=6.5 average attacks to destroy a Firespray.

Defender=6/1.217=4.9 average attacks to destroy a Defender. This makes the Firespray 1-2 attacks more durable than the Defender, but it is easier to make those attacks against the Firespray. It is slower and has a larger base.

After seeing it played, I'd actually say that the PS1 Defender can make up its points if it is complemented by a strong squad. But, triple Defenders will be terrible.

As far as the PS3 Defender, pay the extra point and get a Firespray. It'll take you further and its more versatile due to its aux arc and crew slot. However, the named pilots on the Defender are far and away more powerful than those on the Firespray. Pair them with the right upgrades, and you have a quite powerful hit and run strike fighter.

Honestly, they fit into different roles in a list strategy, but these are my thoughts when you compare the prices.

On most points, I agree that I'd rather pay the extra point over an Onyx Squad to get a Bounty Hunter for several reasons, but if you are judging average durability, the Firespray only just has the edge over the Defender.

On average, 3 focused dice vs 2 unfocused yields 1.531 uncancelled hits. 3F vs 3 unfocused yields 1.217.

Firespray=10/1.531=6.5 average attacks to destroy a Firespray.

Defender=6/1.217=4.9 average attacks to destroy a Defender. This makes the Firespray 1-2 attacks more durable than the Defender, but it is easier to make those attacks against the Firespray. It is slower and has a larger base.

After seeing it played, I'd actually say that the PS1 Defender can make up its points if it is complemented by a strong squad. But, triple Defenders will be terrible.

As far as the PS3 Defender, pay the extra point and get a Firespray. It'll take you further and its more versatile due to its aux arc and crew slot. However, the named pilots on the Defender are far and away more powerful than those on the Firespray. Pair them with the right upgrades, and you have a quite powerful hit and run strike fighter.

Honestly, they fit into different roles in a list strategy, but these are my thoughts when you compare the prices.

Eh, I like Krassis better than either of the named Defender pilots. As long as you put an HLC on Krassis, his ability gets used (unless you roll all hits, I suppose). Rexlar's ability is only useful once you've punched through shields. Vessery's ability is probably a little more useful than Krassis', but it's harder to set up (Krassis', meanwhile, requires no setup).

I am not a fan of Krassis as I tend to think secondary weapons on Firesprays are a waste of points. The rate at which a Firespray closes with the opponent due to base size means you get very few shots with the secondary.

The Firespray also wants to be using its rear arc as that is the major selling point it has.

The Defender is a great platform for secondaries because of the ease of bringing them to bear on your opponent. The Defender is not a range one fighter, it is better out at range 2-3, just based on its movement abilities. If you look at bringing an HLC to bear, then the 32 point Delta +HLC is better than the 33 point Bounty Hunter and better than the 36 point Krassis. For 35 points, I can have Vessery and again his ability is better than Krassis and is a PS point higher. For 1 extra point on Vessery, making him cost the same as Krassis, I can have PS8 with my HLC. For 2 points more than Krassis, I can have Vessery with Outmaneuver, a point higher PS and an HLC.

My conclusion is if you want to use primary weapons then the Firespray is the best platform and can add some nice features with crew.

If you want to use a secondary weapon, especially the HLC, the Defender is the go to platform.

Once again I draw the conclusion that these two ships perform different roles in the Empire fleet. In fact, 1 of each would be a very nasty combination.

Oh Crabbok have we learned nothing,

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

3 all the way down with a white 4 K-turn doesn't help the ship pop?

I guess yeah, knowing what it can do and getting it to the table can help the unbelievers. I just wonder for experienced players why they are dismissing the Defender over the Firespray, for instance.

The Firespray has 66% more hit points and a rear firing arc for practically the same point cost. The Defender's one agility die doesn't tilt the advantage to it in any meaningful way.

Sure, if you're talking averages. But it's nice to be able to dodge three hits. I've had quite a few games where my longevity was due to completely evading a hit/crit loaded attack.

On most points, I agree that I'd rather pay the extra point over an Onyx Squad to get a Bounty Hunter for several reasons, but if you are judging average durability, the Firespray only just has the edge over the Defender.

On average, 3 focused dice vs 2 unfocused yields 1.531 uncancelled hits. 3F vs 3 unfocused yields 1.217.

Firespray=10/1.531=6.5 average attacks to destroy a Firespray.

Defender=6/1.217=4.9 average attacks to destroy a Defender. This makes the Firespray 1-2 attacks more durable than the Defender, but it is easier to make those attacks against the Firespray. It is slower and has a larger base.

After seeing it played, I'd actually say that the PS1 Defender can make up its points if it is complemented by a strong squad. But, triple Defenders will be terrible.

As far as the PS3 Defender, pay the extra point and get a Firespray. It'll take you further and its more versatile due to its aux arc and crew slot. However, the named pilots on the Defender are far and away more powerful than those on the Firespray. Pair them with the right upgrades, and you have a quite powerful hit and run strike fighter.

Honestly, they fit into different roles in a list strategy, but these are my thoughts when you compare the prices.

In addition the Defender's 5 forward is the same as the Firesprays 4 forward, so they are pretty much equally fast.

3 all the way down with a white 4 K-turn doesn't help the ship pop?

I guess yeah, knowing what it can do and getting it to the table can help the unbelievers. I just wonder for experienced players why they are dismissing the Defender over the Firespray, for instance.

The Firespray has 66% more hit points and a rear firing arc for practically the same point cost. The Defender's one agility die doesn't tilt the advantage to it in any meaningful way.

Sure, if you're talking averages. But it's nice to be able to dodge three hits. I've had quite a few games where my longevity was due to completely evading a hit/crit loaded attack.

On most points, I agree that I'd rather pay the extra point over an Onyx Squad to get a Bounty Hunter for several reasons, but if you are judging average durability, the Firespray only just has the edge over the Defender.

On average, 3 focused dice vs 2 unfocused yields 1.531 uncancelled hits. 3F vs 3 unfocused yields 1.217.

Firespray=10/1.531=6.5 average attacks to destroy a Firespray.

Defender=6/1.217=4.9 average attacks to destroy a Defender. This makes the Firespray 1-2 attacks more durable than the Defender, but it is easier to make those attacks against the Firespray. It is slower and has a larger base.

After seeing it played, I'd actually say that the PS1 Defender can make up its points if it is complemented by a strong squad. But, triple Defenders will be terrible.

As far as the PS3 Defender, pay the extra point and get a Firespray. It'll take you further and its more versatile due to its aux arc and crew slot. However, the named pilots on the Defender are far and away more powerful than those on the Firespray. Pair them with the right upgrades, and you have a quite powerful hit and run strike fighter.

Honestly, they fit into different roles in a list strategy, but these are my thoughts when you compare the prices.

Defender may have one more agility, but the Firespray has an evade action. It helps cushion the blow of bad defensive roles so you're not 100% at the mercy of probability. Thus, I think leaving out the evade action underestimates the Firespray's durability relative to the defender.