No one uses the evade action unless a ship is going to have nothing to shoot at this turn, so there's no point in taking an offensive-minded action.

[edit] Or it's a TIE Fighter or Interceptor that's turtling up with Push the Limit.

No one uses the evade action unless a ship is going to have nothing to shoot at this turn, so there's no point in taking an offensive-minded action.

[edit] Or it's a TIE Fighter or Interceptor that's turtling up with Push the Limit.

I do on turns where I know there are no shots because it's a habit. When I started playing I would foget to take my actions a lot, so I just would do them even if they did not make sense to again so I would not forget.

No one uses the evade action unless a ship is going to have nothing to shoot at this turn, so there's no point in taking an offensive-minded action.

[edit] Or it's a TIE Fighter or Interceptor that's turtling up with Push the Limit.

The defender needs a really good cannon upgrade, I don't know exactly what it would be but being a generally faster/sort of maneuverable ship with a cannon upgrade slot is the defender's best shot at fitting into its own unique design space. Heavy laser cannon kind of helps with this but is expensive and still doesn't really guarantee that much damage

Perhaps a cannon that can be charged between turns, something like "instead of performing an attack, you may place one [charge] token on this card up to X number of [charge] tokens" and then have the charge level affect the cannon's damage, accuracy, dice rolled, whatever it takes to make it worth skipping attack turns to power it up. This would fit well with the Defender's nature of not always being able to take a shot every single turn due to its dial limitations, borrowing a little from Corran Horn's playbook.

What limitations? It can still turn as necessary. I don't understand why taking a stress for a K-turn is acceptable, but not a 1 turn. Yes, you have to go straight to clear stress, but even while stressed, it has a very good range of maneuvers. I need practice, because I am terrible at predicting banks.

What limitations? It can still turn as necessary. I don't understand why taking a stress for a K-turn is acceptable, but not a 1 turn. Yes, you have to go straight to clear stress, but even while stressed, it has a very good range of maneuvers. I need practice, because I am terrible at predicting banks.

Because a K-turn often puts you into a position where you aren't getting shot at. Turns work very differently. Red turns quite frankly suck. Combined with Advanced Sensors they can work. Otherwise they just don't work.

Ehh, at least botched red turns don't punish you like red K-turns. You are at least facing the general direction of where you are going.

All red maneuvers suck. But, I still prefer the option than not having the maneuver.

The defender needs a really good cannon upgrade, I don't know exactly what it would be but being a generally faster/sort of maneuverable ship with a cannon upgrade slot is the defender's best shot at fitting into its own unique design space. Heavy laser cannon kind of helps with this but is expensive and still doesn't really guarantee that much damage

Perhaps a cannon that can be charged between turns, something like "instead of performing an attack, you may place one [charge] token on this card up to X number of [charge] tokens" and then have the charge level affect the cannon's damage, accuracy, dice rolled, whatever it takes to make it worth skipping attack turns to power it up. This would fit well with the Defender's nature of not always being able to take a shot every single turn due to its dial limitations, borrowing a little from Corran Horn's playbook.

I like this idea. Another possibility is a modification/title which would allow the Defender to fire both primary and secondary weapons in the same turn - the idea being that the Defender's base attack of 3 does not really reflect the fact that it's carrying (and, in the video games, could fire) SIX cannons (four laser, two ion). I would probably limit this upgrade to ion cannon only, and maybe price it at 3 or 4 points, plus maybe additionally require you to add a stress counter or something...

So you'd have to pay 6-7 points total (for the ion cannon and the upgrade), but could throw out your primary attack of 3, and then also an ion attack. That would be a potential 4 damage total (so not TOO much higher) but also with the ability to ionize the target.

The stress counter would be a huge deterrent, though, because of the Defender's dial. This would make the heavy laser cannon viable still (in theory) since it wouldn't have this limitation.

I don't know if it's workable or could be properly balanced, but I hate how X-Wing's mechanics make lasers and ions an either/or thing.

Only played one game with it so far and I was very impressed. My 2 cents worth is that perhaps the thing with this ship is that it doesnt really need any upgrades. It has the strong stat line, both named pilots have decent abilities and despite the wining about the dial I think its pretty maneuverable especially when you consider it has barrel role.

Squad I fancy trying;

Vessery

2 Tempest with Proton Rockets

1 Scimitar

99pts

All 3 ships can get Vessery his free TL, Tempests with PRs are my current favorite (EVIL PROXY MAN) and the Scimitar is there for even more tank, and a dial that suits the Defender.

Oh Crabbok have we learned nothing,

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

I was going to put this quote out but you beat me to it!

Don't forget Proton Rockets for the defender... You can get Vessery's Free TL, with focus, and outmanuver for a point cheaper than HLC. Probably not quite as nasty but hits pretty **** hard in close. 5 dice with TL and Focus and defending with one less dice is going to mess stuff up. If Onyx squad had an EPT I bet you'd see this loadout a lot on them.

Here's my list 100 pts:

- Vessery, HLC, VI, Shield Upgrade

- Jonus, Determination, Homing Missile

- Scimitar, Cluster + Assault Missile

I tried out the Vessery / Jonas combo this evening - but swapped the Scimitar for a Sigma just so we could try it out.

I played rebs with Ten Numb, Adv Sensors, Proton Torps and an engine upgrade. Etan Ebaht, with Adv Sensors. And lastly Lt Blount with Asault miss and VI.

It was a pretty solid win for the rebs - Ten and Etan teamed up really well and suprised the Imps with their speed (courtesy of the engine upgrade) - cornered the cloaked Sigma before it could do anything and took it out - likewise Blount (who I didn't really fancy for this build - but I just wanted o try out) survived some very hot dice rolling taking him down to 1 hull, only to hit back damaging both remaining ships with the assault missile

I was unbeleivably lucky again in the next round - Blount cornered Jonas but Vassery had first shot - he missed and I hit Jonas with 2 hitsa and a crit that turned out to be a direct hit. Ten Numb finished him off and Etan took 2 shields off vassery.

The next turn Vassery finally finished off Blount - Ten took Vassery's remaining shields, Etan missed.

We spent a few more turns sniping at each other and for a short while it looked like then Imps might gain the upper hand with Etan getting taken down to just one hull - until Ten (without a scratch) stepped in with a hot roll and ended it.

Overall I was just lucky - really stupidly embarassingly lucky - had things not gone my way so early on and in such a decisive way I can see how the Defender would have easily sent Ten Numb floating home, leaving me with very little bite left in the squad

would yorr be a good combo with the tie defenders?

On most points, I agree that I'd rather pay the extra point over an Onyx Squad to get a Bounty Hunter for several reasons, but if you are judging average durability, the Firespray only just has the edge over the Defender.

On average, 3 focused dice vs 2 unfocused yields 1.531 uncancelled hits. 3F vs 3 unfocused yields 1.217.

Firespray=10/1.531=6.5 average attacks to destroy a Firespray.

Defender=6/1.217=4.9 average attacks to destroy a Defender. This makes the Firespray 1-2 attacks more durable than the Defender, but it is easier to make those attacks against the Firespray. It is slower and has a larger base.

After seeing it played, I'd actually say that the PS1 Defender can make up its points if it is complemented by a strong squad. But, triple Defenders will be terrible.

As far as the PS3 Defender, pay the extra point and get a Firespray. It'll take you further and its more versatile due to its aux arc and crew slot. However, the named pilots on the Defender are far and away more powerful than those on the Firespray. Pair them with the right upgrades, and you have a quite powerful hit and run strike fighter.

Honestly, they fit into different roles in a list strategy, but these are my thoughts when you compare the prices.

Eh, I like Krassis better than either of the named Defender pilots. As long as you put an HLC on Krassis, his ability gets used (unless you roll all hits, I suppose). Rexlar's ability is only useful once you've punched through shields. Vessery's ability is probably a little more useful than Krassis', but it's harder to set up (Krassis', meanwhile, requires no setup).

It may be harder to set up, but I would submit that if you plan a squad around him then it's more of a payoff. At least, it has been in my personal experiences with him. I think this is the first time I've ever liked both elite pilots from a single expansion equally.

Defender may have one more agility, but the Firespray has an evade action. It helps cushion the blow of bad defensive roles so you're not 100% at the mercy of probability. Thus, I think leaving out the evade action underestimates the Firespray's durability relative to the defender.

That is true. However, with its larger base it is more likely to be in multiple firing arcs, and thusly may take more attacks per turn, which would offset the added durability gained by evading. But I will agree, evading is a good thing. Especially if you're mitigating your attack roll with a pilot ability (like Krassis) a crew card like Gunner, or an upgrade like Predator or Outmaneuver.

What limitations? It can still turn as necessary. I don't understand why taking a stress for a K-turn is acceptable, but not a 1 turn. Yes, you have to go straight to clear stress, but even while stressed, it has a very good range of maneuvers. I need practice, because I am terrible at predicting banks.

Because a K-turn often puts you into a position where you aren't getting shot at. Turns work very differently. Red turns quite frankly suck. Combined with Advanced Sensors they can work. Otherwise they just don't work.

Ehh, at least botched red turns don't punish you like red K-turns. You are at least facing the general direction of where you are going.

All red maneuvers suck. But, I still prefer the option than not having the maneuver.

Actually sometimes I've found that the red turns don't always hurt. Especially with Vessery. I'll qualify this by saying they work more in my local meta. Taking the red turns usually means that i'm stressed, sure, but if you collide then you weren't getting actions anyway. However, in the following round, after avoiding being shot at thanks to base contact, I can still k-turn. Most of the time this has happened, one of two things has also been true: my opponent has also k-turned or stressed, and they haven't been able to pursue at an optimum angle or at all. Or, having played this game for quite some time, are still in the habit of seeing a stress token and subconsciously thinking "well i know the one maneuver they're not capable of". So when I do of course come about to attack them and they've gone totally the wrong direction the reaction tends to be one of the "……oh poop" category.

Again, this is just something that has seemed to be true for some of my own battles.

Yeah, I did a few red turns with Rexlar with Predator, It really wasn't that bad. Even afterwards. I think the thinking that you MUST do a green once you are stressed is flawed. Especially with Vessery. I think the issues with the dial are being a bit overstated. Honestly, I think the 1 bank makes it better than the A-wing or Interceptor dial. I don't think you will see as varied a dial for a while. You can break with the Defender, or really put on the gas. Or, if you really need it, turn tightly. It is going to take some getting used to, sure. But I'm growing to love it.

I think the backlash is because Imperial players are so used to making that tight 1 turn with no problem. It's been one of the single biggest go-to differences between the factions for 3 waves now… i suppose it's newfound sunburn feels like a heavy penalty.

I like flying a HWK. So this dial feels liberating.

I can deal with the red 1-turn but its the red 2-turn and not even a green bank that are giving me the most trouble playing the defender. Sure I can take a red turn and then kturn and do all my other non-red maneuvers but that's who knows how many turns without an action, and when a ship costs 30+ points I really want it to have actions so it can actually hit things and be worth that investment. Predator helps a little but 3 unmodified dice is not cutting it, and the single reroll doesn't make that big a difference.

I played a few games with the Defender the other evening and was very impressed with the way it handles. The red turns are a minor hindrance rather than a major flaw, especially when combining the white K-turn with barrel rolls to really maximise table position.

The build I had most success with over three games was a Delta squadron with Ion Cannon.

Low PS didn't really seem to hurt as much as I thought as the Defender is beefy enough to take a few rounds of shooting on the chin and still get to do its thing.

Typically I'd come in straight from a flank at speed (ie diagonal across the board picking a path through the asteroids), focus, Ionise something, and then K-turn in behind it and unload a target locked 4 dice attack up their tail pipe (or barrel roll into close range which the oblique attack line really favoured).

It was a very effective tactic, and while my opponent knew it was coming, it was quite another prospect to actually deal with it.

Over the three games the Defender did far more damage than the Phantom (I tried running both Echo and Whisper), and really had me scratching my head over all the fuss about how broken the Phantom is and how overpriced the Defender is.

I really think Vessery is the solution to the red turns and limited greens. Yes, you have to change your build philosophy a little to make sure his ability can trigger, but even without a focus, it is punishing. Always getting a free target lock is quite powerful, and he can be stressed most of the game and not be bothered. In fact, I think it's often best to save your focus, when you can get it, on defensive rolls. 3-down is an impressive stat line and getting a focused defense often can make him live quite a while.

I really think Vessery is the solution to the red turns and limited greens. Yes, you have to change your build philosophy a little to make sure his ability can trigger, but even without a focus, it is punishing. Always getting a free target lock is quite powerful, and he can be stressed most of the game and not be bothered. In fact, I think it's often best to save your focus, when you can get it, on defensive rolls. 3-down is an impressive stat line and getting a focused defense often can make him love quite a while.

I had the same thought this morning. If you ignore the red, the Defender has an amazing dial. With the right support (say, ST-321 + weapons engineer), Vessery can turn on a dime, pop off a target locked attack, and then K-turn and pop off another target locked attack the next turn.

People talk about how limiting the Defender's dial is, and how many turns you have to go without taking an action if you want to do something other than fly straight, but with Vessery this is not the case.

I have seen a couple guys locally make really good use of the white K-Turn.

I think people are grossly underestimating the value of a K-Turn in which you keep your actions. It can really throw a wrench into your flying when the opponent can bounce around in a joust and still gets tokens.

Played my first game with defender and i love it, i was already happy to just own them at last but now i've seen their power i doubt i'll ever run a list without them again.

I took two defenders two ties with targeting computers and echo, i faces wedge, etahn, porkins, blout and another pilot i cant remember, we went head to head against each other he focused on vessery with three ships while porkins and blout broke off to attack echo, vessery was striped of shields and took a crit for 2 damage leaving him on 1 hull but survived, next turn two defenders K turned and gunned down wedge and atahn with HLC fire, the remaining three rebels were all out of position and none had me in their fire arc so it was pretty obvious that with his 2 biggest hitters dead and my ships on his six it wasnt going to go well for him so we called it on the end of turn 3.

Defenders can take a beating over plenty of fire power and that K turn is fantastic, i'm one happy imp.

Played my first game with defender and i love it, i was already happy to just own them at last but now i've seen their power i doubt i'll ever run a list without them again.

I took two defenders two ties with targeting computers and echo, i faces wedge, etahn, porkins, blout and another pilot i cant remember, we went head to head against each other he focused on vessery with three ships while porkins and blout broke off to attack echo, vessery was striped of shields and took a crit for 2 damage leaving him on 1 hull but survived, next turn two defenders K turned and gunned down wedge and atahn with HLC fire, the remaining three rebels were all out of position and none had me in their fire arc so it was pretty obvious that with his 2 biggest hitters dead and my ships on his six it wasnt going to go well for him so we called it on the end of turn 3.

Defenders can take a beating over plenty of fire power and that K turn is fantastic, i'm one happy imp.

Sounds like you were playing over 100 points. I'm more confident taking a defender in an epic game than I am building a 100 point list with one.

Played some wave 4 games today and I've got to say I absolutely HATE the Defender. Hate.

Initially I thought the white K turn meant it had the best dial, but it's got red hard turns, and no green turns at all. It's basically awesome if you are ONLY going straight. If you have to turn, even an X-Wing has better turning ability. Kinda sad for a ship who's claim to fame was it's dial.

Has any of wave four even come out yet?