In the future they have computers in the ships that beep and announce annoyingly 'lead with the pew pews ok?!?!?!'

I wasn't meaning Angle of Attack as in the angle of an airfoil. I was meaning the angle of your attack on an object that is travelling relative to your position.

I know. I was trying to be funny. Angle of attack is an aerodynamics term.

there are a lot of things I'd like to see in the game...

1. Forward and rear shields

2 Rolling to hit, THEN rolling damage

3 Pilot skill making it easier to hit and easier to evade. Right now Wedge rolls two defense dice,same as a Rookie... that's right, in these rules it's just as easy to blow wedge out of the sky as a Rookie pilot? How is that even logical? Better pilots should be harder to hit!

4 Manoeuvres making you harder to hit. Someone flying fast or doing a K turn should have a DEF bonus at least.

Basically the rules have been dumbed down for a reason... so that you can happily run ten ships and not have a nervous breakdown

Which is why I'd like to see...

An advanced rules set.

Scenarios and campaign rules for advancing pilots, getting to choose abilities as you spend Kills XP,etc, etc.

FFG should be capitalising on all aspects of the game, and lord knows why they haven't done a Death Star mat and turbolaser box set (as well as asteroids) that seemed like a no brainer.

An advanced rules set would be great. It'd take some doing though to make sure everything balances out with the advanced rules and the points values.

I mean, considering that the movies were inspired by WW2 aerial battle films, shouldn't this aspect of aerial conflict be in the rules in some way? And if not then how the heck did any of the Rebels survive the opening scene in the Battle of Yavin with all those ties and ships shooting them head on?

Just doesn't strike me as fitting the theme and it would make maneuvar matter so much more. Perhaps not as much for the large slow ships, but definitely the squints racing past a line of X-Wings should be harder to hit than if the X-Wings were on theIr tails

Hm. Could maybe just convert Wings of Glory rules over.

I think you mean battle of endor ether way they are both cool. The reason any craft survived the imperial chare at the start of batle of endor was a combanation of ecm, shields, and being in the right place at the right time. Now agiants the real heavy hitter imp craft shields was not a factor of why some of the rebs survived. Fyi those moncal cap ships carry 120 reb fighters a piece. Also lots of modern evolutions of military aircraft made it into the design and lore of the craft : ]

Ps I kinda like your idear.

I've also thought that having +1 defense when someone is shooting at your side (center to center going through the target ships side) makes a lot of sense.

The part of me that grew up on battletech likes the idea. However battletech takes an appalling amount of time to play. So just think of the old tie fighter game, regardless of the angle the target reticle would turn green when you had the sweet spot, shoot then and the pesky x-wing would get hit.

The rules are a good abstraction of fighter combat with lots of things, like third dimensional movement, assumed to be includes but not actually shown by any game mechanic. In my head the fighters are juking and spinning all over the place when the shoot and defense rolls are made.

Madquest8. Pilot skill does make you harder to hit. Would you rather go up against Soontir Fel or an alpha squadron pilot? Or to use your example: if a rookie pilot makes his move in activation phase and then backstabber makes his move and then repositions out of the rookie's arc, then the rookie is in a bad spot. If backstabber has to go first, he doesn't have prior knowledge of wedge's position so he's more likely going to evade or focus to hedge his bets. Wedge moves, then blows him away before backstabber fires. It's actually a brilliantly elegant game mechanic. But what people need to remember is that high PS is only as good as the player's pilot skill.

ok modern day aircraft have all kinds of lead computing gun-sites taking this waaaaay further i would imagine that in the future the gun-sites are so good that angle of attack doesn't matter and lasers ARE nearly instantaneous . so no lead is required.. Its also Star wars so logic is NOT required.... otherwise ALL ships would be able to barrel roll, spin 360 degrees etc while in space.. seriously go find an old copy of SPI's Airwar and read the rules BOOK.. and it is a BOOK...lol the game was so complex it wasn't much fun!!

Madquest8. Pilot skill does make you harder to hit. Would you rather go up against Soontir Fel or an alpha squadron pilot? Or to use your example: if a rookie pilot makes his move in activation phase and then backstabber makes his move and then repositions out of the rookie's arc, then the rookie is in a bad spot. If backstabber has to go first, he doesn't have prior knowledge of wedge's position so he's more likely going to evade or focus to hedge his bets. Wedge moves, then blows him away before backstabber fires. It's actually a brilliantly elegant game mechanic. But what people need to remember is that high PS is only as good as the player's pilot skill.

This doesn't account for the guy next to Backstabber... who now shoots at wedge. Being able to shoot first does not accurately simulate better pilot skill, when someone gets to shoot at a better pilot they should have a harder chance to hit, saying that the better pilot gets to shoot first just doesn't cut it. I get why they dumbed it down, but it doesn't work for me... I'd just like to see a rules set where having a higher skill makes you harder to shoot at when the dice start rolling. There's certainly an audience for more detailed and heroic rules,but I get the feeling that FFG only really care about 'Tournament' play. And you couldn't have a more detailed set of rules for that as it would take too long.

Madquest8. Pilot skill does make you harder to hit. Would you rather go up against Soontir Fel or an alpha squadron pilot? Or to use your example: if a rookie pilot makes his move in activation phase and then backstabber makes his move and then repositions out of the rookie's arc, then the rookie is in a bad spot. If backstabber has to go first, he doesn't have prior knowledge of wedge's position so he's more likely going to evade or focus to hedge his bets. Wedge moves, then blows him away before backstabber fires. It's actually a brilliantly elegant game mechanic. But what people need to remember is that high PS is only as good as the player's pilot skill.

This doesn't account for the guy next to Backstabber... who now shoots at wedge. Being able to shoot first does not accurately simulate better pilot skill, when someone gets to shoot at a better pilot they should have a harder chance to hit, saying that the better pilot gets to shoot first just doesn't cut it. I get why they dumbed it down, but it doesn't work for me... I'd just like to see a rules set where having a higher skill makes you harder to shoot at when the dice start rolling. There's certainly an audience for more detailed and heroic rules,but I get the feeling that FFG only really care about 'Tournament' play. And you couldn't have a more detailed set of rules for that as it would take too long.

I've actually be toying with the houserule idea of pilots getting "skill tokens" that are something like PS-2 (so academies and other fodder don't get them) that can be traded for free focus/evade tokens once per turn. Needs some balancing though.

Honestly I don't think a simple -1 evade if attacker is out of your primary arc would overcomplicate things. But FFG will never make this kind of rules change and it's all firmly in houserule territory.

The part of me that grew up on battletech likes the idea. However battletech takes an appalling amount of time to play. So just think of the old tie fighter game, regardless of the angle the target reticle would turn green when you had the sweet spot, shoot then and the pesky x-wing would get hit.

The rules are a good abstraction of fighter combat with lots of things, like third dimensional movement, assumed to be includes but not actually shown by any game mechanic. In my head the fighters are juking and spinning all over the place when the shoot and defense rolls are made.

Have you had a look at the alpha strike version of battletech step? It's much faster to play because they've simplified shooting modifiers and made damage quick and simple to record I can recommend it.

Because computer targeting is that good now, it doesn't matter what angle.

Coolest thing I have ever seen in real life is ordinance pretty much make a 120 degree turn and hit its target.

And though not in the game, apparently "The Force" lets you fudge rolls.

Really with all the computers and technology. Just like in modern fighter they compensate for the angle of attack.

As for game terms it's keeps it simple.

ok modern day aircraft have all kinds of lead computing gun-sites taking this waaaaay further i would imagine that in the future the gun-sites are so good that angle of attack doesn't matter and lasers ARE nearly instantaneous . so no lead is required.. Its also Star wars so logic is NOT required.... otherwise ALL ships would be able to barrel roll, spin 360 degrees etc while in space.. seriously go find an old copy of SPI's Airwar and read the rules BOOK.. and it is a BOOK...lol the game was so complex it wasn't much fun!!

Yes and no. If you read the Stele chronicals it shows some groups of TIE Fighters not using any targeting computers at all, just iron sights.

As for the Lasers you dont want to use unaltered Lasers in SW i think the ecm itself screwsum up so the use altred lasers that are bottled to protect the laserbolt best they can from the ecm. Both the ECCM and ECM are fighting eachother nasty like which is why the targeting computer have to be tuned all the time.

Ps I wouldnt be to proud of those 360 spins you see like in BSG. It to tight and is carried out most of the time at the wrong moment. If I some how poped into the New BSG universe and I had to fight humans or Reploids I would be happy to see them do there perfect 360 turn infront of me because for a bit they are now a much bigger target for me to hit =)

In the show they do the above alot, diffrence between me and the enemies in BSG is that they stop shooting at the fighter infront of them when they flip.

Hell I would call that a "Death Spin 2.0."

I think is a case of elegant and well implemented game design being second guessed by people who don't know how to make something enjoyable.

This game is successful and fun because they've summed up space combat without bogging it down in unnecessary details that get in the way of actually enjoying ones self.

The part of me that grew up on battletech likes the idea. However battletech takes an appalling amount of time to play. So just think of the old tie fighter game, regardless of the angle the target reticle would turn green when you had the sweet spot, shoot then and the pesky x-wing would get hit.

The rules are a good abstraction of fighter combat with lots of things, like third dimensional movement, assumed to be includes but not actually shown by any game mechanic. In my head the fighters are juking and spinning all over the place when the shoot and defense rolls are made.

Have you had a look at the alpha strike version of battletech step? It's much faster to play because they've simplified shooting modifiers and made damage quick and simple to record I can recommend it.

I haven't. Mechwarrior online fills my battletech needs and xwing covers tactical board gaming.

The part of me that grew up on battletech likes the idea. However battletech takes an appalling amount of time to play. So just think of the old tie fighter game, regardless of the angle the target reticle would turn green when you had the sweet spot, shoot then and the pesky x-wing would get hit.

The rules are a good abstraction of fighter combat with lots of things, like third dimensional movement, assumed to be includes but not actually shown by any game mechanic. In my head the fighters are juking and spinning all over the place when the shoot and defense rolls are made.

Have you had a look at the alpha strike version of battletech step? It's much faster to play because they've simplified shooting modifiers and made damage quick and simple to record I can recommend it.

I haven't. Mechwarrior online fills my battletech needs and xwing covers tactical board gaming.

same currently killing my KDR leveling new omni mechs, but if you do decide to try it i think you'll like it

I think is a case of elegant and well implemented game design being second guessed by people who don't know how to make something enjoyable.

This game is successful and fun because they've summed up space combat without bogging it down in unnecessary details that get in the way of actually enjoying ones self.

Being second guessed by people who don't know how to make something enjoyable?

That's a terribly presumptuous and arrogant tilt to a comment. It seems to kind of speak of issues being brought to the table that have nothing to do with the discussion.

same currently killing my KDR leveling new omni mechs, but if you do decide to try it i think you'll like it

I have been gleefully blasting clan mechs, and painfully working out the basics on my two shiny new atlases. The game was positively delighting in dropping my brawler onto the non-hill side of alpine last night.

Mechanically this rule is simple to implement:

Side shot +1 evade dice.

I'd probably say you get either this OR the range 3 evade dice bonus; you couldn't get both at the same time.

The problem with it is two fold:

1) It would require new ship bases, wth a more cluttered look <-- This is a HUGE problem.

2) It's going to brain overload a lot of people.

Seems a simple addition to the game to me and perfect for a "house rule". But I can't see how this would suddenly require new ship bases or give a lot of people a brain overload. And if you try a side shot at range 3, why can't you claim the range bonus as well? It's not likely to be easy to hit a distant target travelling across your line of fire.

I am amused by the number of posts that proclaim advanced targeting systems would eliminate the difficulty of a side shot altogether. From what I can tell, all the ships still have to be pointed at the target in order to hit it, and that requires pilot input and lightning fast reflexes, as well as the possibility of pilot error. If the targeting systems were that good, they'd hit EVERY time, and that would make for a very boring game of "who hits first, wins".

I'm also a little surprised by the flood of " it would make the game too complex " comments, as I can't really see it slowing anything down. If it's just a +1 defense die for crossing targets, how is that so different from a range 3 target? I think the OP is just trying to suggest a small element of realism into the combat mechanic, so why hammer him over it? This is less complex than adding a new pilot's skill or elite skill that does a similar thing, yet no one screams "too complex" when they are added. How is this any different to Backstabber or Outmaneuver?

I've played lots of air combat games (WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam & modern) that have this element built in as standard as well as altitudes, and most of those games played just as well as X-Wing does. Yes, there's some complex games out there, but there's plenty of fast play ones too that aren't overly complex and still really enjoyable.

I don't think anyone is hammering the guy. Several of us disagree. Personally I think such a rule would be too large an advantage for turrets, and add complexity that doesn't need to be there. You talk about shooting as if each die roll is one shot, but I see it as a flurry of blasts that the defender has to jink and dodge through.

If you want to add the house rule, more power to you. Me I prefer not to use it. I think that high agility ships, especially maneuverable ones like the Ewing would benefit far too much. Phantoms aren't even worth considering.