This game isn't play to win because nothing really dominates the scene. The only squad that approaches domination is the Howlswarm, which costs $115 at MSRP (one Core Set, five TIE Fighter expansions). That's not bad at all when compared to TCGs like Magic or Pokémon, in which a single box of boosters costs just as much and probably won't net you all the cards you'll need for a top-level deck — you'll have to buy another $120 box of boosters, or pay extra for single cards.

Biggs Walks the Dogs isn't even bad. A Core Set, an X-Wing, two B-Wings and two E-Wings costs $115. When we had to buy two Shuttles for our AdvSens, it cost $145.

The most expensive 100-point squad off the top of my head is five Black Squadron Pilots each with Hull Upgrade and Predator. That'll require a Core Set, three TIE Fighter expansions, three Imperial Aces boxes and five TIE Defender expansions — $250 at MSRP, and I don't even know how well that squad would work. I suppose a more expensive squad would incorporate an upgrade or two from the Tantive and Rebel Transport, heh.

But the thing with X-Wing is that you don't have to shell out all that money to win. There are much cheaper options that do just as well, if not better.

This game isn't play to win because nothing really dominates the scene. The only squad that approaches domination is the Howlswarm, which costs $115 at MSRP (one Core Set, five TIE Fighter expansions). That's not bad at all when compared to TCGs like Magic or Pokémon, in which a single box of boosters costs just as much and probably won't net you all the cards you'll need for a top-level deck — you'll have to buy another $120 box of boosters, or pay extra for single cards.

Biggs Walks the Dogs isn't even bad. A Core Set, an X-Wing, two B-Wings and two E-Wings costs $115. When we had to buy two Shuttles for our AdvSens, it cost $145.

The most expensive 100-point squad off the top of my head is five Black Squadron Pilots each with Hull Upgrade and Predator. That'll require a Core Set, three TIE Fighter expansions, three Imperial Aces boxes and five TIE Defender expansions — $250 at MSRP, and I don't even know how well that squad would work. I suppose a more expensive squad would incorporate an upgrade or two from the Tantive and Rebel Transport, heh.

But the thing with X-Wing is that you don't have to shell out all that money to win. There are much cheaper options that do just as well, if not better.

I think FFG has done exceptionally well with balance. This and the fact they are willing to release cards in additional expansions minimize the affect of how they distribute upgrade cards.

That said I think the idea of totals and comparisons while a valid point is still not really the best way to look at it. Just because something is "not at bad" doesn't mean it is good. It just means it could be worse:).

Simple fact is the way they bundle their models and cards and in conjunction with official rules requiring "official" products for use (in tourneys). They ARE to some degree promoting over-purchasing, whether planned or not. Lets not forget the ever popular advanced sensors we only available via shuttle for 9 months and only now having a cheaper option with an e-wing.

Is it a game breaker, heck no! As been said nothing is game breaking enough yet to be "required". Only really effects official tournaments. And in my opinion if you have to min/max in a tourney, you can pony up the cash required.

Yet I find it curious they will allow 3rd party range/movement templates which actually measure in official matches but don't allow 3rd party cards who's accuracy one could argue (at least in size/shape/image but not text or cost) is less important.

EDIT: I will add to me the issue isn't number of expansions to use... its buying expansions you DON'T use only to get a upgrade.

This game isn't play to win because nothing really dominates the scene. The only squad that approaches domination is the Howlswarm, which costs $115 at MSRP (one Core Set, five TIE Fighter expansions). That's not bad at all when compared to TCGs like Magic or Pokémon, in which a single box of boosters costs just as much and probably won't net you all the cards you'll need for a top-level deck — you'll have to buy another $120 box of boosters, or pay extra for single cards.

Biggs Walks the Dogs isn't even bad. A Core Set, an X-Wing, two B-Wings and two E-Wings costs $115. When we had to buy two Shuttles for our AdvSens, it cost $145.

The most expensive 100-point squad off the top of my head is five Black Squadron Pilots each with Hull Upgrade and Predator. That'll require a Core Set, three TIE Fighter expansions, three Imperial Aces boxes and five TIE Defender expansions — $250 at MSRP, and I don't even know how well that squad would work. I suppose a more expensive squad would incorporate an upgrade or two from the Tantive and Rebel Transport, heh.

But the thing with X-Wing is that you don't have to shell out all that money to win. There are much cheaper options that do just as well, if not better.

Now I want to figure out what the most expensive squad list possible is, lol.

I'd be willing to bet that if you did figure it out (which would be a lot of effort, you'd have to use small ships with large ship upgrades or something) it wouldn't be competetive

Pay to win is more like if you bought a store championship certificate form Ebay, and got a 1st round bye at regionals out of it.... but buying the stuff that allows you to play - isn't really paying to win.

Actually paying to win, by common use, is when expending a much bigger amount of cash can give you advantadges gamewise. By this definition, the game is pay to win (so is every mini / tcg game).

Since this is a collector's game, it is complete understandable that someone with more cash, will have an advantadge since he will have more options to play with. That goes with basically any miniature/card game. Normally there exists always the "newbye's choice", cheap builds so you can get to play competitively withouth spending much, but the moment that option no longer exists, you would put a heavier burden on any new player who want to play competitively, and at one point, you would actually turn people away from your game.

More options != higher chance of winning a game in X-Wing.

Well i guess i did a poor job explaining myself when the answer i get is a one liner.

More options definitly will give you a higher chance of winning games on any game, because it will lead to you having more experience, and variety to adapt and play the metagame. That's of course, if you actually take advantadge of it by trying out and putting practice time into it, i thought that goes withouth saying, hence why i didn't say it. At the end, in most games, practice time is the most important factor, but that doesn't exclude other factors, and the balance between both is very important in this games.

hmmm no, I don't think its pay to win. It is pay to play mostly, as unless you wish to just borrow ships all the time, your paying to play with the ships you buy. However, you can spend a small amount ( respectively ) and still pull out wins. You just don't get to use all the new bells and whistles. I know at least for me, I enjoy having access to all the bells and whistles, but it really doesn't make it easier or harder to win. ( Hell my fav to play ships are Squints and Shuttles, so really no amount of buys helps me out too much ) At the end of the day it will come down more to player skill, then I spend tons for all the options. Just my thoughts on it. ( Oh and a fair touch of luck, when all else fails )

More options != higher chance of winning a game in X-Wing.

Of course it is - ALL things being equal.

But all things are never equal. There is skill and dice. Skill is a byproduct of experience, and experience is (hopefully) a byproduct of playing the game for a while or intensively (unless you're just not paying attention), and along with time and intensity you usually pick up more stuff.

So, there's a complex set of factors, but if you hold all of those constant, the more choices you have, the more you'll be able to put together a competitive build.

The question is, how much? How powerful is that factor in the face of all the other factors. I hazard to say fairly minimal, but it's still there.

Yet I find it curious they will allow 3rd party range/movement templates which actually measure in official matches but don't allow 3rd party cards who's accuracy one could argue (at least in size/shape/image but not text or cost) is less important.

I think they allow third party templates precisely due to the issue of accuracy. The official rulers are themselves not all the same size. The (more expensive) third party acrylic templates can be produced to be more consistent and therefore allow players a better degree of accuracy should they choose to use them.

The definition of pay to win is in a competitive multiplayer game, by spending cash you can gain a significant competitive advantage over someone who spends less cash. Going by this defintion I disagree with the assertation that xwing is p2w. Simply having access to more squadron builds does not equal a competitve advantage.

Since this is a collector's game

This isn't a collectible type game though. There are no blind boosters that require you to buy 15-45 packs to get the 3 or 4 cards you want. There are no rare cards, or ships in this game.

You can go into any LGS (that has the ships in stock) and buy exactly what you want. There's nothing collectible about it in the gaming sense.

Also more options simply gives you more options, it doesn't mean those options are always good.

More options != higher chance of winning a game in X-Wing.

Of course it is - ALL things being equal.

But all things are never equal. There is skill and dice. Skill is a byproduct of experience, and experience is (hopefully) a byproduct of playing the game for a while or intensively (unless you're just not paying attention), and along with time and intensity you usually pick up more stuff.

So, there's a complex set of factors, but if you hold all of those constant, the more choices you have, the more you'll be able to put together a competitive build.

The question is, how much? How powerful is that factor in the face of all the other factors. I hazard to say fairly minimal, but it's still there.

Well, sure. Absolutely. However if it is by those terms that a player will derisively refer to the game as "pay-to-win" then I would consider that player's expectations to be off base.

Simply having access to more squadron builds does not equal a competitve advantage.

Okay - care to back up the assertion?

What?!?! Have anyone here play warhammer or heroclix...THOSE are expensive, Xwing is like a dream, its cheap, no new release every two month (like clix), you dont need a million miniatures like warhammer. There is no autowin list, every list can win, proof of that is swarm, tie fighters from WAVE 1 still wins tournaments. I dont see any debate in the thread, its simple and obvious

Well, sure. Absolutely. However if it is by those terms that a player will derisively refer to the game as "pay-to-win" then I would consider that player's expectations to be off base.

Agreed.

But I still think it's an interesting thing to think about to what degree laying down some green helps you win your games.

Let's first ask another question: how much does the outcome of the battle depend on the build. vs. the tactical choices that one makes once the builds are decided? How much does it hinge on the roll of the dice?

What?!?! Have anyone here play warhammer or heroclix...THOSE are expensive, Xwing is like a dream, its cheap, no new release every two month (like clix), you dont need a million miniatures like warhammer. There is no autowin list, every list can win, proof of that is swarm, tie fighters from WAVE 1 still wins tournaments. I dont see any debate in the thread, its simple and obvious

Right, that's why we're not talking about this 'in comparison to' compatible games. For that matter, we could talk about it in comparison to chess.

Okay - care to back up the assertion?

I'll take a swing. In order for More Squad options to = better chance to win, would presume that as you increase in options, you increase in quality. But that's clearly not true. It would also require a degree of imbalance that doesn't fit to X-Wing.

As long as 4 X-Wings or 7 Tie Fighters are viable lists, then more options don't really give you a huge advantage. Because more options don't always mean better options.

how much does the outcome of the battle depend on the build. vs. the tactical choices that one makes once the builds are decided? How much does it hinge on the roll of the dice?

I'd say build is important, it's going to be very hard to win a match if you have 6 HWK's without turrets... But list building over all is less important in X-Wing then it is in say 40k or Warmachine, and much, much less important then deck building in MtG.

Since this is a collector's game

This isn't a collectible type game though. There are no blind boosters that require you to buy 15-45 packs to get the 3 or 4 cards you want. There are no rare cards, or ships in this game.

You can go into any LGS (that has the ships in stock) and buy exactly what you want. There's nothing collectible about it in the gaming sense.

Also more options simply gives you more options, it doesn't mean those options are always good.

How is it not ? You collect models and the cards in those expansion. Random has nothing to do with it. Or maybe since english is not my first language am i missing some meaning of the word collect?

Pay to win is more like if you bought a store championship certificate form Ebay, and got a 1st round bye at regionals out of it.... but buying the stuff that allows you to play - isn't really paying to win.

Actually paying to win, by common use, is when expending a much bigger amount of cash can give you advantadges gamewise. By this definition, the game is pay to win (so is every mini / tcg game).

Since this is a collector's game, it is complete understandable that someone with more cash, will have an advantadge since he will have more options to play with. That goes with basically any miniature/card game. Normally there exists always the "newbye's choice", cheap builds so you can get to play competitively withouth spending much, but the moment that option no longer exists, you would put a heavier burden on any new player who want to play competitively, and at one point, you would actually turn people away from your game.

This game is in no way pay to win

Like any game you have to buy it to play it. Once you have the pieces you can make different lists and if you're a good player you can win.

A player who spends 1000 dollars had more options over someone who spends 100 but having more options does not give you a win. Playing smart and developing good squads with what you have is how yout win. Not how much money.

Like I said earlier.

If people really think this is a pay to win game are probably making excuses for their lack of skill in this game

Since this is a collector's game

This isn't a collectible type game though. There are no blind boosters that require you to buy 15-45 packs to get the 3 or 4 cards you want. There are no rare cards, or ships in this game.

You can go into any LGS (that has the ships in stock) and buy exactly what you want. There's nothing collectible about it in the gaming sense.

Also more options simply gives you more options, it doesn't mean those options are always good.

How is it not ? You collect models and the cards in those expansion. Random has nothing to do with it. Or maybe since english is not my first language am i missing some meaning of the word collect?

A player usually has an idea of what they want to fly and buy what they need.

Since every ship comes with the same cards there is no need to buy packs until you get what you want. Like magic the gathering or hero Clix

You buy the ships you want. Get the cards you need and go to town.

Say you spent 60 bucks last month and I spent 2000.

That is not going to determine the game.

It's what we fly and our skill and knowledge of what we are flying.

That is in no way pay to win

You want a pay to win game?

Go play any mobage game on the mobile app market place.

That's pay to win

The issues with the Heavy Laser Cannon, Push the Limit, and Advanced Sensors is so overblown. Are those cards really good in combination with ships not in their pack (or, at least before Imperial Aces), sure. But, for it to be a true pay to win situation, those ships would have to be sooo crippled without those upgrades, that you wouldn't run the ship without them. Yet, B-wings and Interceptors still run perfectly fine without those upgrades.

Looking at the phrase alone makes absolutely no sense, but the common meaning of the phrase.

- Being pay to win is not mutually exclusive with pay to play.

- Gaining advantadges through buying, doesn't equal that the game is decided by who spends more, but certainly can put a burden in game design at long term.

- I am not experienced enough with the game, i am not saying it is pay to win (not in a derogative manner atleast), i am saying that is always a risk and i think community should be always more alert about it. Not getting hysterical about the new things, but certainly active critics is something that brings more positive things than negative (and as i said before, when it is well constructed critics).

All I can say is If buying new ships is a problem for people then don't invest in it.

I love this game and to keep it going they have to release new things for it.

I will buy everything I can just because I love this game and love having options.

However ffg does a fine job keeping it balanced. And just like new ships from early waves will still work just like any list.

It will never be pay to win.

Only way that would happen is if they include unbalanced cards in future expansions which is against what they do

So again is not pay to win

If your a good player you can make a good list work.

If not then your going to lose no matter what.

Though these are the players who would use the term pay to win

Since this is a collector's game

This isn't a collectible type game though. There are no blind boosters that require you to buy 15-45 packs to get the 3 or 4 cards you want. There are no rare cards, or ships in this game.

You can go into any LGS (that has the ships in stock) and buy exactly what you want. There's nothing collectible about it in the gaming sense.

Also more options simply gives you more options, it doesn't mean those options are always good.

How is it not ? You collect models and the cards in those expansion. Random has nothing to do with it. Or maybe since english is not my first language am i missing some meaning of the word collect?

Well if you want to play competitively you're going to have to spend a few bucks. Don't expect things for free.

A player usually has an idea of what they want to fly and buy what they need.

Since every ship comes with the same cards there is no need to buy packs until you get what you want. Like magic the gathering or hero Clix

You buy the ships you want. Get the cards you need and go to town.

Say you spent 60 bucks last month and I spent 2000.

That is not going to determine the game.

It's what we fly and our skill and knowledge of what we are flying.

That is in no way pay to win

You want a pay to win game?

Go play any mobage game on the mobile app market place.

That's pay to win

You may re-read my post, because in no way i had ever said that the money we spent is more important than knowledge and experience. You are taking words for granted from me that i had not said, you are also answering to something about the game being about collecting models, which, well, i am right.

It is getting a bit annoying, i understand that this kind of threads get people defensive, but please, read what i wrote, and if i didn't make myself clear, don't instantly assume i am just a dumb whiner. Hell, i even had not played the game enough to speak about it being pay to win (because that would assume the money spent is the most important factor to determine the winner), i am just speaking about the risks of raising entry barriers (that could come up with big ship expansion exclusives).

I have not read all responses, but the premis is CLEARLY false. Rebel builds such as xxyy, or xxbb are extremely competative at minimal cost. People who invest mere seek diversity in there list. But restricter to the OP, the premis if FALSE.

Simply having access to more squadron builds does not equal a competitve advantage.

Okay - care to back up the assertion?

Because I have seen first hand people who use nothing but cards and ships from the basic set and x wing and y wing booster expansions come and WIPE THE FLOOR with people at a tournament using squadrons built from at least 5 diffrent expansions. Skill trumps everything in this game but luck.