is kind of the idea behind the statement: pay-to-win.

Ok, but the whole idea of Pay-to-Win, unless it has a completely different meaning here then I'm used to, means you are able to buy an advantage or increased chance to win over someone else.

You quite literally spent money in order to improve your chance to win. I fail to see how that's even remotely true of X-Wing since no amount of money is going to give you an unbeatable list.

Again, personally, I completely agree with you.

I think that there is a degree of Pay to win in the game but at the same time there is enough diversity in the system that for a fraction of other table top games you can build a list that can be difficult to take down by most opponents, example Smugglers Paradise [2x YT's] & variants. Even from an Imperial stand point TIE swarm is competitive and no other blisters are needed for some variants.

No

Its not pay to win

You the player pay whatever you want.

Like Vanor stated that is more a term you see in MMO type of games. Where you can pay 100 bucks and go up 60 levels and get really rare equipment that most cannot get. And usually that equipment is Random, so if after spending a hundred bucks and you didn't get what you wanted, you keep spending until you do. That is pay to win

Just because I go out and bought a transport and the Tantive does not give me more of an edge over another player who only invested in say a dozen ships.

The pilots and the cards that comes with them are not over powered

Whatever list I create with that is for the most part on par with all the other waves.

The way I see it is some players for whatever thier financial reasons are cry about things if they can't afford it and say "well it'd not fair "

That's not mine or anyone else's problem.

If I dish out a hundred bucks for something then ya I hope it comes with something new. Otherwise why would I buy it if I can get it for 20 bucks.

"I have a wife and kids... " so what. Again not my problem. Am I suppose to feel sorry?

Sorry if I sound harsh but it's the truth.

I have a wife,kids, mortgage. I don't cry saying " well I want a Lamborghini but they charge to much for one that's not fair "

Ya that costs a lot more but to some is easily affordable, just like a hundred dollar ship is affordable for some and not others

It's an excuse imo. If you really think it's a pay to win game then maybe who ever think so is just not very good.

It's not just what you have but how you use it. If you always crash and can't line up a shot. It won't matter how much money you spent. If you only spent enough for a tournament list 80-100 bucks. Good at maneuvers,and knowing what your opponent will do, you will do well.

If you go out and buy four hwks, well that's not going to increase your odds. You also have to have some clue on how to put lists together and use them to their full advantage.

So again I will say NO! This is not a pay to win.

If people out there really think so, then maybe they are Just no good at it

Again, personally, I completely agree with you.

I see, so you're sorta playing Devils Advocate? I'm not really arguing with you so much as I am with the concept you mention.

I don't know if I'd call it pay to win but at the current state, the older this game gets the harder it is for a new player to hop in and get what they want. I mean sure, a new guy can buy a few expansions and the starter pack and be good... But here's two problems.

New Player has to buy ships they don't want just to get the cards they want. This doesn't apply to just huge ships, but like, anything!... Want push the limit? Gotta get yourself an A-wing even if you're not going to use it... You need it to have that card [unless people are nice which they often are, then you don't! Though you as a new player may not know it exists until you get it!] This makes the cost of the game really go up for new players. =/

People who want to stick to a faction, can't... They need the other ships just for the cards so they can play with them. That's kinda lame. I mean it's neat in that it adds more depth and stuff but it also adds onto the price tag for people who don't want to buy EVERY ship that comes out... and maybe more than one of a ship they won't ever use just so they can get a few of the cards. =/

Want push the limit? Gotta get yourself an A-wing even if you're not going to use it...

Or... you could buy Imperial Aces and get it that way.

People who want to stick to a faction, can't... They need the other ships just for the cards so they can play with them.

AdvSen and PtL are both in expansions for both factions now. So that's not really true.

The thing is, this game isn't hard for new people, because you don't need every card to have a good list. That's the flaw in most of this thinking. Sure you may not have as many options but that doesn't mean you can't put together a very viable list for $75 to $100...

The generation after mine (and mine to a certain degree) is notorious for wanting something for nothing.

Said every 30+ year old human who has ever lived throughout history...

Again, personally, I completely agree with you.

I see, so you're sorta playing Devils Advocate? I'm not really arguing with you so much as I am with the concept you mention.

Pretty much sums it up.

We share the same opinion of pay-to-win.

I think the term has been distorted when applied by x-wing critics to mean something along the lines of: all the cards I want don't come with the ships I want to use them on. That's money I don't want to, or can't, spend; so people who spend more than me get an advantage.

Which I believe to be a fallacy, because as you stated; it doesn't make you more likely to win.

Ok, I keep seeing Biggs Walks the Dogs come up. That list is not some kind of magic bullet. If you haven't, take the time to go to the Covenant TCG Youtube channel and watch the final match where he won with it. It's not the list, it's how he flew it. To beat Paul Heaver, or any other player, you don't have to beat the squad, you have to beat the player.

all the cards I want don't come with the ships I want to use them on. That's money I don't want to or can't spend; so people who spend more than me get an advantage.

I'll admit I'm not completely unsympathetic to that opinion... I don't care for the idea of spending $60 for 3 more AdvSen cards.

That said, there's so many options out there to deal with it... I can proxy the cards, run a different list, or figure out something that works other then that card. Then FFG does things like include them in E-Wings and PtL in Imp Aces.

Again I can get the opinion, but honestly I don't see a better system... Short of some sort of print on demand where we could just print out official copies of the upgrades we want.

This game is totally pay-to-win. I pay my opponents $100 and I win every time!

I don't know if I'd call it pay to win but at the current state, the older this game gets the harder it is for a new player to hop in and get what they want. I mean sure, a new guy can buy a few expansions and the starter pack and be good... But here's two problems.

New Player has to buy ships they don't want just to get the cards they want. This doesn't apply to just huge ships, but like, anything!... Want push the limit? Gotta get yourself an A-wing even if you're not going to use it... You need it to have that card [unless people are nice which they often are, then you don't! Though you as a new player may not know it exists until you get it!] This makes the cost of the game really go up for new players. =/

People who want to stick to a faction, can't... They need the other ships just for the cards so they can play with them. That's kinda lame. I mean it's neat in that it adds more depth and stuff but it also adds onto the price tag for people who don't want to buy EVERY ship that comes out... and maybe more than one of a ship they won't ever use just so they can get a few of the cards. =/

No. I don't buy it

Just more excuses is all that is.

How much a week on average does a person spend on things like coffee, soda, junk food, going to the movies.

These are all items that nobody needs, but want.

You don't NEED them to survive. You just WANT them.

Same goes for xwing.

You want predator, but don't want to buy the defender?

You probably don't need it, and If you want it that badly, then cut back on something else.

Stop buying coffee for a week. Or don't go to a movie every Friday night.

If you have to save money. Cut back on something.

I mean 20 bucks a week? Pack a lunch instead of eating out for work. Bring your own coffee in a thermos instead of going to the coffee shop and buying a coffee and a muffin.

If you really want that card but not the ship, well you'll still probably get more user out of that card than you will with a coffee every day

All I hear is excuses really

Which card in the Tantive 4 is instant win? I will never buy it, so what am I missing out on?

This is a well balanced, affordable game that is not being offered elsewhere. FFG is a business so this makes total sense.

I am not advocating buying every set or even multiples. If that's how people want to spend their money, that's fine. I simply don't believe that my success is denied because I didn't buy Slave 1 so I can't put stealth device on Baron Fel.

Buy what you want. Play what you like. Trust your instincts, Luke.

Although I fully disagree with x-wing being pay to win, I do really hate when an extremely useful upgrade card is only available with ships from one faction, as PTL & AdvSen were at first. I see that as more of a cash grab than anything else. Want to make sure the HWK sells, give it an awesome card like Recon Spec that everyone will want. With wave 4 it looks like they might be moving away from that model, or at least including one of the last wave's cards with the oposite faction's new ship.

I am a newbye player. Barely had played only a few games, so i won't speak about the game itself, but the problematic that the system may entail at long term. And it is the risk of the barrier entry to competition being too high. Mind you, i don't think it is right now, but it could be in the future, and adding special cards (except if they are released for some regular ship expansion too) to big and expensive ships which are unlikely to be a priority for a new player (and honestly, they shouldn't be from a game perspective, scalation is ideally a better way for a player's force to grow) is certainly not a well thought way to handle the game system (even tho it can be good short term as a cash grab).

Anyways, i am loving this game, but i like to try to be realistic instead of wearing hype bandanas ;p

Another question, I suppose deals with the level of competitiveness.

Who are you playing with?

If you're playing with friends, then the bar is really low. If you're playing with cut-throat wingers at a tournament in a big city, then the slope probably gets a bit steeper.

The only way the argument holds water is if you want to argue that X-Wing is unbalanced to the point of being broken. I feel X-Wing is pretty well balanced.

I've run an XXBB list. I don't want to shell out for two shuttles. I have one. I have one advanced sensor. I would like another (which also come with the E-Wing, mind) but I don't need two to build a competitive list. Just because there is a list out there with two advanced sensors that has won games doesn't mean you need to fly that list to win, too. There are lots of winning lists and lots more yet to be discovered. My suggestion would be to quit netdecking (or whatever you call it with minis games) and start trying to build your own lists.

If I want another sensor, I'd have to shell out for it but that's not pay-to-win. That's pay-to-buy-the-thing-I-want which is also known as, you know, capitalism.

Even then, FFG isn't trying to take you for a ride. Have you played 40k or Magic? Most upgrades for X-Wing come in more than one expansion, none of the expansions are blind or randomized, and the upgrades that come unique to certain expansions are not absolutely necessary in order to win in a competitive setting. Plus, you're getting these expansions at very, very competitive prices.

X-Wing is priced fairly, expansions are not blind, and with the possible exception of a Vaderless Advanced, all ships can be competitive in various different ways. X-Wing is balanced and it is inexpensive compared to other minis games. It is, in my opinion, most certainly not pay-to-win.

This game isn't play to win because nothing really dominates the scene. The only squad that approaches domination is the Howlswarm, which costs $115 at MSRP (one Core Set, five TIE Fighter expansions). That's not bad at all when compared to TCGs like Magic or Pokémon, in which a single box of boosters costs just as much and probably won't net you all the cards you'll need for a top-level deck — you'll have to buy another $120 box of boosters, or pay extra for single cards.

Biggs Walks the Dogs isn't even bad. A Core Set, an X-Wing, two B-Wings and two E-Wings costs $115. When we had to buy two Shuttles for our AdvSens, it cost $145.

The most expensive 100-point squad off the top of my head is five Black Squadron Pilots each with Hull Upgrade and Predator. That'll require a Core Set, three TIE Fighter expansions, three Imperial Aces boxes and five TIE Defender expansions — $250 at MSRP, and I don't even know how well that squad would work. I suppose a more expensive squad would incorporate an upgrade or two from the Tantive and Rebel Transport, heh.

But the thing with X-Wing is that you don't have to shell out all that money to win. There are much cheaper options that do just as well, if not better.

Mind you, i don't think it is right now, but it could be in the future

I'll be honest. They day that 4 X-Wings, or a Tie Swarm are no longer viable in this game, is the day I stop buying stuff.

Pay to win is more like if you bought a store championship certificate form Ebay, and got a 1st round bye at regionals out of it.... but buying the stuff that allows you to play - isn't really paying to win.

Pay to win is more like if you bought a store championship certificate form Ebay, and got a 1st round bye at regionals out of it.... but buying the stuff that allows you to play - isn't really paying to win.

Well, I guess you can change the definition as you will, but I think you understand the intent of the question.

Pay to win is more like if you bought a store championship certificate form Ebay, and got a 1st round bye at regionals out of it.... but buying the stuff that allows you to play - isn't really paying to win.

Actually paying to win, by common use, is when expending a much bigger amount of cash can give you advantadges gamewise. By this definition, the game is pay to win (so is every mini / tcg game).

Since this is a collector's game, it is complete understandable that someone with more cash, will have an advantadge since he will have more options to play with. That goes with basically any miniature/card game. Normally there exists always the "newbye's choice", cheap builds so you can get to play competitively withouth spending much, but the moment that option no longer exists, you would put a heavier burden on any new player who want to play competitively, and at one point, you would actually turn people away from your game.

Pay to win is more like if you bought a store championship certificate form Ebay, and got a 1st round bye at regionals out of it.... but buying the stuff that allows you to play - isn't really paying to win.

Actually paying to win, by common use, is when expending a much bigger amount of cash can give you advantadges gamewise. By this definition, the game is pay to win (so is every mini / tcg game).

Since this is a collector's game, it is complete understandable that someone with more cash, will have an advantadge since he will have more options to play with. That goes with basically any miniature/card game. Normally there exists always the "newbye's choice", cheap builds so you can get to play competitively withouth spending much, but the moment that option no longer exists, you would put a heavier burden on any new player who want to play competitively, and at one point, you would actually turn people away from your game.

More options != higher chance of winning a game in X-Wing.

Well pay to play is true as the ships aren't free. However, pay to win? Not even close.

This is not a collectible game in the normal sense of the word. You are not opening packs blindly searching for rare ships or buying the rare ships off of ebay. Each ship costs a fixed amount and you know exactly what you are getting.

So the only debate left would be the large ships like the transport and Tantive IV. Those ships have cards, or even ships, that are legal in normal play but cost far more than a normal ship. The Tantive costs a lot of money for only a few legal cards. So do those rare cards give players an unfair advantage? I would say no. While all of the new X-Wings are good, they are by no means required to win a tournament. The cards out of the Tantive also seem to fall into this catagory. They are additional fun options but not completely overpowered cards that give a huge advantage.

A pay to win format would suggest that by buying hugely expensive cards the player gains an unfair advantage that other players don't have access to. If the cards in the non-legal large ships had been strictly better than other ships you might have a point. The way I look at them is that they are more options given as a thank you for buying their high dollar ships that by no means give you a leg up in a tournament.

small ship 10 bucks.....

Med ship 20

LG ship 40-60 but you only NEED one..... actually you don't NEED it at all.. but in all seriousness i don't find it THAT expensive when a single X-box one game costs nearly 60!!! wonder how many folks on here have 30 or 40 X box games? but complain about X-wing prices? or have a cell data plan that costs 100+ a month? etc etc... seriously if you want to find an expensive hobby take up cycling (real bikes not that walmart crap)... now go price XT vs XTR or Sram rival vs Sram Red.. for a few GRAMS of weight difference you pay hundreds in price difference!! I pay 60 bucks just for my tires! a single tire... but in cycling you DO get what you pay for... for the most part...